inherit
711
0
Aug 27, 2018 17:13:44 GMT -6
50
aindriu
112
Aug 25, 2015 13:44:07 GMT -6
August 2015
aindriu
|
Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 12:40:45 GMT -6
I suppose it all started back in January of 2016 when backers were given the opportunity to vote on the shader designs for Miriam. We were given the option of a complete 3D design which gave Miriam a more textured and realistic approach, then we were given a much more colorful, yet much more unrealistic cell-shaded version of Miriam complete with thick and heavy outlining.
I was concerned for two reasons:
First of all, I was concerned that if the cell-shaded Miriam was chosen that it would actually degrade the visual integrity of the game overall; it would be a gothic setting with 3D monsters and backgrounds, shadowed atmospheres, and a big, thickly outlined cartoon character sticking out from all of it like a sore thumb.
Second of all, regardless of how I felt about it, from a business standpoint, it didn't seem wise to not trust the game developers to make their own decisions; by putting the fate of the game's aesthetic in the hands of the fans, they essentially insured that if there was any substantial divide, even if it was, say, 70% to 30%, that would mean that 30% of all the backers would ultimately be disappointed in the design choice.
As fate would have it, the cell-shaded Miriam won. I tried very hard to be optimistic about it regardless, but every single game clip I have seen thus far, up to and including the most recent E3 trailer, has confirmed my fears; Miriam and the other monsters stick out like a sore thumb because of their design choice, which does, in fact, deteriorate the visual integrity of the game. They look like the sprites in Smash Bros. for the 3DS.
Next is the "improvements" that the developers made on the background. Yeah, from a technical standpoint, the backgrounds look a lot more realistic. However, they also happen to make the rooms look a lot more empty and make Miriam's unrealistic design stick out even more than in previous clips of the game.
...And is it too much to ask that if Miriam's unnecessary and illogical scarf can be animated to flap around with her movements that they could at least give a little bounce to her hair? I'm pretty sure they didn't have Aquanet in the era that this game is supposed to be taking place in.
I know that a lot of hard work has been pouring into the production of this game, especially considering that the initial release date of March 2017 has been pushed to some time in 2018, but I can't help but feel like there are too many conflicting creative minds going into this project. As it stands, it feels like this game is a bit of a Frankenstein's Monster.
|
|
purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator 
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
Nov 22, 2024 16:16:48 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 9, 2017 13:11:38 GMT -6
How are you feeling about these things nowadays, Redogan ? You had a similar opinion before. |
|
inherit
402
0
Dec 6, 2020 21:44:28 GMT -6
332
estebant
334
Jul 15, 2015 16:18:20 GMT -6
July 2015
estebant
|
Post by estebant on Jun 9, 2017 13:48:55 GMT -6
Im not dissapointed, this is why...
Many of us fell in love with the SotN brand of Castlevania games for years. We were spoiled by the almost yearly consistent release of new high quality (low budget) Castlevania games.
Iga's games had an almost indie feel before the indie scene really took off. 2D games were a rarity in those days.
Konami decided Castlevania should be a more mainstream AAA title so after Order of Ecclesia 10 YEARS AGO we never got another Iga title. The Lords of Shadow games just didn't feel the same. And (at least in my opinion) indie games immitating the metroidvania formula pale in comparison.
I'm sure you already know all that but my point is... most of us in the forums waited a decade for another game like this and the fact that it exists is enough.
You're talking to people that still play games from the early 90's on a regular basis. We don't give a shit if Miriams hair isn't bouncy enough
|
|
inherit
45
0
Apr 4, 2023 1:04:01 GMT -6
648
Scars Unseen
[TI0]
560
Jun 8, 2015 23:16:31 GMT -6
June 2015
scarsunseen
|
Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 9, 2017 15:07:48 GMT -6
I wouldn't say I'm disappointed, but overall, I feel the same way in the opposite direction as you. I strongly advocated an aggressive flat shading approach, and I can't say I'm displeased by how Miriam turned out in that regard. But with the backgrounds all having realistic lighting and shading, it does look somewhat mismatched, and I'm seeing comments on Reddit that reflect that(even if some can't quite put their finger on what about the graphics bother then).
IMO, the 2.5D nature of the game is necessary for the reasons stated in the Kickstarter campaign, and I have no problem with that at all. But I think that where a choice is given, the goal should be to come closer to the concept art, not further from it. After they've shown that they are fully capable of a beautifully shaded character like they did during the voting, I was somewhat frustrated that they didn't then apply a similar process to the environment, but that was never given to us as an option.
It's not going to stop me from playing or endorsing the game, but it is something that sits at the back of my mind, and it's always the first thing I think of when I see new footage.
|
|
inherit
7
0
Jun 28, 2019 21:35:13 GMT -6
1,291
CastleDan
1,514
May 28, 2015 9:50:13 GMT -6
May 2015
castledan
|
Post by CastleDan on Jun 9, 2017 15:36:11 GMT -6
I'm kind of torn. I like the amount of realistic detail on the backgrounds but I like the watercolor LOOK up the characters. I was kind of hoping the backgrounds would have that same watercolor effect originally. Mainly because like you said the characters pop and the backgrounds could use that same pop. I thought realistic Miriam looked way too bland almost like a character you'd create in a character editor. The watercolor one looked like a version with actual art direction and beauty to it....I'm not really disagreeing that I wish the backgrounds had more of a similar look to the characters but I think the main thing throwing me off is how much the backgrounds seem to lack color.
The entrance in the newer update added some needed color and it made the area look infinitely better. Maybe things would blend if the backgrounds weren't so colorless. For instance I thought she blended fine with the boat, it's all the grey areas that she pops up a lot
|
|
Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
Shardbinder
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
Posts: 1,068
inherit
Legendary Comrade
445
0
Oct 20, 2019 3:32:00 GMT -6
1,600
Pure Miriam
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
1,068
Jul 25, 2015 2:19:20 GMT -6
July 2015
puremiriam
|
Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 9, 2017 15:50:20 GMT -6
I agree with CastleDan to a degree. I personally love the watercolor, thick lines and irrealistic shading of Miriam and the characters. About the dissonance between her and the overall background... I know it exists, but it really, honestly, don't bother me. At all. I also agree with estebant on what he said, specially in the end. I do understand people that are bothered by somethings related to the game. I am bothered about the backlash, because that could make it harder for this to became a franchise, but, honestly, i think most of us (not everyone, of course) don't care about some details, like flowing hair and things like that. I take Harmony of Dissonance as a example. The game has a terrible sound quality, it's a shameless copy of Symphony of the Night, Juste has a ugly blueish line around his body, the game has several mediocre bosses, the graphics are saturated and overly colorful...And i was playing it yesterday. At Hard mode with Juste. Again, for, like, the 10th time. I think it is safe to say that, most of Igavania fans simply don't care. We want a new, fun Igavania. We are going to have a new, fun Igavania. And that is enough for many of us. |
|
inherit
45
0
Apr 4, 2023 1:04:01 GMT -6
648
Scars Unseen
[TI0]
560
Jun 8, 2015 23:16:31 GMT -6
June 2015
scarsunseen
|
Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 9, 2017 16:41:58 GMT -6
I think it is safe to say that, most of Igavania fans simply don't care. If you look at pretty much anywhere outside of this forum, I don't think that's safe to say at all. The vast majority of comments I've seen elsewhere pertain to a dislike of the visuals with varying degrees of specificity. Some of the complaints are entirely unrealistic, such as wishing for the game to be a 2D sprite game, which we already know wasn't possible at the level of detail that IGA wants. But many of the other complaints would be mollified by a more consistent art direction, preferably in keeping with the current character art. And those complaints do matter. Those are the people who haven't already pledged money to the game. Those are the people whose opinions are going to translate into the financial success or failure of the game(along side those of professional critics). I'm not saying that every criticism is equally valid or that IGA should start catering to the masses above his own vision for the game, but neither should those complaints be discarded out of hand when they become so prevalent as they are. |
|
inherit
1279
0
May 3, 2016 16:47:41 GMT -6
52
arct1c0n
77
May 2, 2016 15:56:17 GMT -6
May 2016
arct1c0n
|
Post by arct1c0n on Jun 9, 2017 16:52:48 GMT -6
How about everyone just calm the fuck down as we are still around a year away from launch and a lot of stuff can change and will.
|
|
inherit
45
0
Apr 4, 2023 1:04:01 GMT -6
648
Scars Unseen
[TI0]
560
Jun 8, 2015 23:16:31 GMT -6
June 2015
scarsunseen
|
Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 9, 2017 17:24:39 GMT -6
arct1c0n Everyone else here is calm. We're all just posting our opinions. But even if that wasn't the case, do you really think swearing at people for saying things you don't like would help?
|
|
gunlord500
Global Moderator
Hyped for Bloodstained 2!
Posts: 1,109
inherit
177
0
1
Oct 31, 2024 22:11:53 GMT -6
914
gunlord500
Hyped for Bloodstained 2!
1,109
Jun 20, 2015 23:53:30 GMT -6
June 2015
gunlord500
|
Post by gunlord500 on Jun 9, 2017 17:44:45 GMT -6
Yeah, no need for swearing, or for getting into harsh arguments with each other over differences of opinion. We've got a great deal of time before the game comes out, so let's all stay cool  This will be the last moderation necessary ITT, I trust. Back on topic: I can understand aindriu's points, and I think some of it may stem from how most of us here love IGA's old sidescrollers most of all. Everything from Symphony of the Night to Order of Ecclesia was sprite based, so it'd be tough for a lot of us old-school fans to get used to a 3d (even "semi 3d," so to speak) artstyle. I think it's something IGA just had to accept, though. I mean, gameplay is the most important thing, and if Miriam and the enemies didn't stick out (to use one example), it'd be harder to keep track of them in motion. There's a lot of time between now and the final release date, which means the staff can polish up the graphics even further, so I think most of these issues can be resolved eventually. |
|
exile
Loyal Familiar
Posts: 168
inherit
1786
0
May 11, 2020 15:50:55 GMT -6
183
exile
168
Dec 27, 2016 2:26:16 GMT -6
December 2016
exile
|
Post by exile on Jun 9, 2017 17:58:23 GMT -6
Aindriu, or what it's worth, I somewhat agree with you. I found the previous character shader a little lifeless, so I actually prefer the more "cartoonish" look, but there's a slight disconnect with the backgrounds. I don't find it as jarring as you do, but it's definitely there. It's a shame they couldn't apply the same effect to the backgrounds, as others have suggested.
What bothers me FAR more is likely a nonissue for most players, but it's funny that you share the same gripe. I absolutely HATE that Miriam's hair looks like a plastic helmet. As I said on another forum, when you consider Alucard's hair and cape and Shanoa's hair and dress (gorgeous), Miriam just seems lacking by comparison, and it's mostly because of the hair. I believe it's necessary in games like this, so that while one traverses long hallways and corridors, there's a sense of motion and momentum.
I know many will be dismissive, thinking, "Dude, it's JUST hair." I'd argue, "No, it's not." When I stare at a character for hours and hours, the way they move is very much a part of my experience. People are quick to raise a fuss about one uninspired weapon (out of dozens), but dismiss something that's an integral part of the main character, because in a game with limited dialogue, it stands in place of their personality. You tell me that Alucard's silver, flowing hair didn't become something of a trademark. Now it's not something that's a big enough deal to ruin the game for me, obviously, but it does matter.
In addition to what the original poster mentioned, I'm also really bothered by what I can only assume is the blue familiar floating around in the trailer. Talk about a disconnect. It seems superimposed on top of the rest of the scenery the way old 3-D effects were used in the '80s. It doesn't even seem to be part of the same plane of existence.
Although the above may sound harsh, I'm looking very forward to this game and will play the hell out of it, I'm just huge on style/art direction as well, and when a game has as much great art direction as I believe Bloodstained has, it's a shame to see it marred by a few missteps.
|
|
Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
Shardbinder
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
Posts: 1,068
inherit
Legendary Comrade
445
0
Oct 20, 2019 3:32:00 GMT -6
1,600
Pure Miriam
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
1,068
Jul 25, 2015 2:19:20 GMT -6
July 2015
puremiriam
|
Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 9, 2017 17:59:41 GMT -6
If you look at pretty much anywhere outside of this forum, I don't think that's safe to say at all. The vast majority of comments I've seen elsewhere pertain to a dislike of the visuals with varying degrees of specificity. Some of the complaints are entirely unrealistic, such as wishing for the game to be a 2D sprite game, which we already know wasn't possible at the level of detail that IGA wants. But many of the other complaints would be mollified by a more consistent art direction, preferably in keeping with the current character art. And those complaints do matter. Those are the people who haven't already pledged money to the game. Those are the people whose opinions are going to translate into the financial success or failure of the game(along side those of professional critics). I'm not saying that every criticism is equally valid or that IGA should start catering to the masses above his own vision for the game, but neither should those complaints be discarded out of hand when they become so prevalent as they are. If you take a look at the likes and dislikes of each video. At the time of this writting (06/09/2017) absolutely all trailer videos, at all accounts i was able to check, have almost 90% likes to 10% dislikes. Even so, that doesn't matter too much either. Most people that liked what they saw, don't comment at those sites or the videos. It's common for humans. You don't take your time to log at something to praise, but you will log at something to complain. I'm not saying this is a win-win situation. I'm saying that the negative comments shouldn't have all that weight, because internet is just like that. People will complain about absolutely anything and everything, anywhere and everywhere, all the time and for any reason. Of course, i'm also worried about the backlash, and the dev team should be worried too, i agree with you. But let's not give so much credit and weight for negative internet comments like that. I agree with constructive criticism, but let's try to spread a bit more positive view of things, shall we? |
|
inherit
Yakuza
493
0
May 20, 2020 18:57:27 GMT -6
490
Dragon_of_Dojima
[TI1]Rip and Tear
579
Aug 2, 2015 8:26:01 GMT -6
August 2015
dragonofdojima
|
Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Jun 9, 2017 18:06:51 GMT -6
I wonder if the game would be much more demanding if it had realistic hair movement ala Tomb Raider reboot. My money is on yes. Though yeah, any hair movement would be an improvement.
|
|
inherit
Worm Demon
219
0
Mar 12, 2021 6:12:17 GMT -6
175
spideryfingers
194
Jun 30, 2015 16:27:05 GMT -6
June 2015
spideryfingers
|
Post by spideryfingers on Jun 9, 2017 18:08:02 GMT -6
Absolutely @pure Miriam. Negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia.
No reason to be disappointed really. It was only around 3 weeks ago that we found out that Iga mentioned that the game is 20 - 30% complete. There's still a lot of work to do, tweaks to be made and constant revision throughout the methodology. Look at it this way, I see it as a gemstone that's still in the process of being 'cut 'n' polished'.
|
|
Busterific
Hairy Old Man
Loyal Familiar
Posts: 249
inherit
Hairy Old Man
1697
0
Mar 30, 2022 13:03:31 GMT -6
222
Busterific
249
Aug 19, 2016 16:36:35 GMT -6
August 2016
busterific
|
Post by Busterific on Jun 9, 2017 18:08:15 GMT -6
In addition to what the original poster mentioned, I'm also really bothered by what I can only assume is the blue familiar floating around in the trailer. Talk about a disconnect. It seems superimposed on top of the rest of the scenery the way old 3-D effects were used in the '80s. It doesn't even seem to be part of the same plane of existence. The familiar seemed to stand out a bit too much to me as well. It think it's the fact that it's so bright. I did find it interesting that the summoned apes in one of the other videos seemed to use the same color scheme which makes sense to me. Given the color scheme I think it would be interesting if they made them slightly transparent so they seem like ghosts of the creatures your summoning. This may make it so that they don't appear so jarring compared to the background based on the colors they're currently using for them. |
|
inherit
711
0
Aug 27, 2018 17:13:44 GMT -6
50
aindriu
112
Aug 25, 2015 13:44:07 GMT -6
August 2015
aindriu
|
Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 18:24:32 GMT -6
Aindriu, or what it's worth, I somewhat agree with you. I found the previous character shader a little lifeless, so I actually prefer the more "cartoonish" look, but there's a slight disconnect with the backgrounds. I don't find it as jarring as you do, but it's definitely there. It's a shame they couldn't apply the same effect to the backgrounds, as others have suggested. What bothers me FAR more is likely a nonissue for most players, but it's funny that you share the same gripe. I absolutely HATE that Miriam's hair looks like a plastic helmet. As I said on another forum, when you consider Alucard's hair and cape and Shanoa's hair and dress (gorgeous), Miriam just seems lacking by comparison, and it's mostly because of the hair. I believe it's necessary in games like this, so that while one traverses long hallways and corridors, there's a sense of motion and momentum. I know many will be dismissive, thinking, "Dude, it's JUST hair." I'd argue, "No, it's not." When I stare at a character for hours and hours, the way they move is very much a part of my experience. People are quick to raise a fuss about one uninspired weapon (out of dozens), but dismiss something that's an integral part of the main character, because in a game with limited dialogue, it stands in place of their personality. You tell me that Alucard's silver, flowing hair didn't become something of a trademark. Now it's not something that's a big enough deal to ruin the game for me, obviously, but it does matter. In addition to what the original poster mentioned, I'm also really bothered by what I can only assume is the blue familiar floating around in the trailer. Talk about a disconnect. It seems superimposed on top of the rest of the scenery the way old 3-D effects were used in the '80s. It doesn't even seem to be part of the same plane of existence. Although the above may sound harsh, I'm looking very forward to this game and will play the hell out of it, I'm just huge on style/art direction as well, and when a game has as much great art direction as I believe Bloodstained has, it's a shame to see it marred by a few missteps. This. Very this. |
|
BloodyTears92
Loyal Familiar
[TI1]It is time for darkness. It is a blood banquet.
Posts: 342
inherit
959
0
Jan 28, 2020 3:45:53 GMT -6
438
BloodyTears92
[TI1]It is time for darkness. It is a blood banquet.
342
Dec 7, 2015 22:34:49 GMT -6
December 2015
bloodytears92
|
Post by BloodyTears92 on Jun 9, 2017 18:28:59 GMT -6
I can see the concern about the disconnect in some of the visuals, there is certainly some polishing to be done and now that they are moving into asset production I think these issues are going to be addressed more quickly and readily as they arise and are expounded upon. As to the visuals themselves, I do think its agreeable to make sure Miriam and the enemies pop and are visually distinct (though I have to agree the Dullahamer Head familiar REALLY does not blend well), and as for the shader, I was one of many who went for the more colorful and unrealistic combo pretty much immediately and I'd like to articulate why, since I think most people who went for that more cell shaded look did so for the same reason:
Art style and direction trump raw expressions of graphical power every single time. I firmly believe if they had gone with the more realistic shader, it might look good NOW, but a few years from now it probably would not have aged as well. Lets take 2 examples from last gen: Gears of War 3, upon its launch, was hailed for its gorgeous visuals. Now I go back to it and think "wow, this aged badly and looks like mud". Now take Something like, say, Devil May Cry 4, which has a much more vibrant and stylish visual flare to it. Outside some occasionally dodgy texture work, I think DMC4 holds up well visually.
For a couple of current gen example I'm willing to place a bet on: I really like Assassin's Creed Syndicate's visuals, but I'm not sure it will still look good a decade from now. But take Persona 5's amazing stylistic look? I bet in 2027 Persona 5 will still look awesome.
So I personally went for the more "stylized" shader because not only did I think it looked awesome right then, but I think it will still look awesome for years to come. I'm not saying your opinions aren't valid, they certainly are, I'm just trying to articulate the mindset I had and what Im betting many others also had many months ago.
|
|
Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
Shardbinder
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
Posts: 1,068
inherit
Legendary Comrade
445
0
Oct 20, 2019 3:32:00 GMT -6
1,600
Pure Miriam
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
1,068
Jul 25, 2015 2:19:20 GMT -6
July 2015
puremiriam
|
Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 9, 2017 18:42:09 GMT -6
I can see the concern about the disconnect in some of the visuals, there is certainly some polishing to be done and now that they are moving into asset production I think these issues are going to be addressed more quickly and readily as they arise and are expounded upon. As to the visuals themselves, I do think its agreeable to make sure Miriam and the enemies pop and are visually distinct (though I have to agree the Dullahamer Head familiar REALLY does not blend well), and as for the shader, I was one of many who went for the more colorful and unrealistic combo pretty much immediately and I'd like to articulate why, since I think most people who went for that more cell shaded look did so for the same reason: Art style and direction trump raw expressions of graphical power every single time. I firmly believe if they had gone with the more realistic shader, it might look good NOW, but a few years from now it probably would not have aged as well. Lets take 2 examples from last gen: Gears of War 3, upon its launch, was hailed for its gorgeous visuals. Now I go back to it and think "wow, this aged badly and looks like mud". Now take Something like, say, Devil May Cry 4, which has a much more vibrant and stylish visual flare to it. Outside some occasionally dodgy texture work, I think DMC4 holds up well visually. For a couple of current gen example I'm willing to place a bet on: I really like Assassin's Creed Syndicate's visuals, but I'm not sure it will still look good a decade from now. But take Persona 5's amazing stylistic look? I bet in 2027 Persona 5 will still look awesome. So I personally went for the more "stylized" shader because not only did I think it looked awesome right then, but I think it will still look awesome for years to come. I'm not saying your opinions aren't valid, they certainly are, I'm just trying to articulate the mindset I had and what Im betting many others also had many months ago. I never, ever, though that way and you are absolutely right. |
|
inherit
45
0
Apr 4, 2023 1:04:01 GMT -6
648
Scars Unseen
[TI0]
560
Jun 8, 2015 23:16:31 GMT -6
June 2015
scarsunseen
|
Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 9, 2017 18:57:13 GMT -6
Negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia. And I very strongly disagree with this so long as those comments are made respectfully. Disagreeing with negative commentary is fine. Correcting incorrect comments is fine. Telling people that they shouldn't make criticism? No. I'm not okay with that. That's how you get an echo chamber. Telling people that they have no reason to be disappointed in the current state of the game isn't helpful in the least. It's actually somewhat dismissive and insulting. Better just to post your own positive criticism rather than try to demean those who don't share it. |
|
inherit
711
0
Aug 27, 2018 17:13:44 GMT -6
50
aindriu
112
Aug 25, 2015 13:44:07 GMT -6
August 2015
aindriu
|
Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 19:00:09 GMT -6
Absolutely @pure Miriam. Negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia. No reason to be disappointed really. It was only around 3 weeks ago that we found out that Iga mentioned that the game is 20 - 30% complete. There's still a lot of work to do, tweaks to be made and constant revision throughout the methodology. Look at it this way, I see it as a gemstone that's still in the process of being 'cut 'n' polished'. Personally speaking, the fact that it's been two years since the kickstarter campaign and the game is only 20-30% feels like a REALLY long time for this style of game. I mean, consider that The Last of Us only took 3 years, Beyond: Two Souls took only one year, and Middle Earth: Shadow of War looks like it's just slightly over the 3 year mark. |
|
This will be the last moderation necessary ITT, I trust. 
