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Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 19:04:32 GMT -6
Negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia. And I very strongly disagree with this so long as those comments are made respectfully. Disagreeing with negative commentary is fine. Correcting incorrect comments is fine. Telling people that they shouldn't make criticism? No. I'm not okay with that. That's how you get an echo chamber. Telling people that they have no reason to be disappointed in the current state of the game isn't helpful in the least. It's actually somewhat dismissive and insulting. Better just to post your own positive criticism rather than try to demean those who don't share it. This as well.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 9, 2017 19:13:14 GMT -6
aindriu It's worth noting that from a content generation standpoint, a lot more happens toward the end of development than the beginning. Being 20% - 30% done doesn't mean only 20% - 30% of the time needed to finish the game has been used.
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Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 20:05:00 GMT -6
aindriu It's worth noting that from a content generation standpoint, a lot more happens toward the end of development than the beginning. Being 20% - 30% done doesn't mean only 20% - 30% of the time needed to finish the game has been used. This is very true.
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Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 20:06:14 GMT -6
This is entirely off-topic, but I wish more people in the world could discuss their differences with the respect and civility that I perpetually see expressed in this specific forum.
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Post by fatihG on Jun 9, 2017 20:06:47 GMT -6
I don't mind the colorful look of the characters. Castlevania games have always been colorful to a degree in the past as well. It didn't go for a super dark, edgy, realistic look in the past. (except for the 3d games, and SotN to a degree.) I dont agree that what they did wasn't wise, to give the backers some say in the shader decision. I assume that all of the options that were given to the backers were art directed. Its not like they gave the backers free reign on what the shaders should have looked like. It was a controlled vote. While I like the style of the characters/monster. The more the dev's work on the game the more I feel that the game starts looking more sterile. Maybe things will look a bit better in game vs compressed videos or still images. However i had a similar worry when it came to the environments in the 2016 e3 demo. I even made a paint-over back then to illustrate my points. The 'improvements' the to environment don't feel like improvements to me. Sure they may have used better textures here and there, and touched things up a bit. but it still feel like everything is disconnected. Like the levels are a collage of different images stuck together. Like a sprite based 2d game really. I still feel that a major lacking thing in the game so far is lighting. bloodstainedfanforums.com/post/29444/threadTo me it almost feel like they are not quite sure how to approach the environments. Like someone just learned a new tool and they are struggling through it. Which -sort of- is true as they stated UE4 adoption in Japan is fairly new. The fact that Dico, which are developing the game right now, stated that they used to work on sports games in the past doesn't give me much faith either. On top of that, them going for the visually procedural variation makes it so that they can not really take advantage of 'pre rendered' lighting effects either. As the environments will not be 'static'. So lighting effects like bounce lights, baked shadows or even baked AO, is not really possible. They can use real time shadows which they are as far as I can tell, and perhaps SSAO. But again they cant take advantage of the baked lighting in UE4. All in all... I think I just set my expectation too high. Maybe the style will grow on me as time passes.. however it needing to grow on me is a different issue altogether. The 2d games, even for a low budget, still looked pretty polished to me. Of course there were bits and pieces where they cheaped out in the 2d games, like having palette swaps for entire environments and what not. So yeah I think the game has potential, however you don't want to be in a state of 'having potential' for too long, as ultimately it will end up being a missed opportunity. Alot of things look unfinished/not polished. I really hope that this is the case and it simply is all a work in progress. The boss battle areas in the trailer for example looks like they literally threw a few things together to have something new to show for the 2017 e3 demo. -edit- Absolutely @pure Miriam. Negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia. No reason to be disappointed really. It was only around 3 weeks ago that we found out that Iga mentioned that the game is 20 - 30% complete. There's still a lot of work to do, tweaks to be made and constant revision throughout the methodology. Look at it this way, I see it as a gemstone that's still in the process of being 'cut 'n' polished'. Personally speaking, the fact that it's been two years since the kickstarter campaign and the game is only 20-30% feels like a REALLY long time for this style of game. I mean, consider that The Last of Us only took 3 years, Beyond: Two Souls took only one year, and Middle Earth: Shadow of War looks like it's just slightly over the 3 year mark. Dont get me wrong but this statement feels very misinformed to me. You've got to realize that those games have allot more budget and bigger teams working on them vs what ArtPlay has. Plus they had established studios as well. ArtPlay on the other hand had to set up studios/partnerships to even begin working on this game All the big AAA games usually range anywhere between 15 million to 200 million. For example Beyond two souls cost 27 million to develop. So, relatively, the 5 million ArtPlay got from Kickstarter is a very modest number
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Post by chocolatestain on Jun 9, 2017 20:07:11 GMT -6
Some pretty good points made on both sides of the crticism. I gotta wonder if the team ever gets stressed out from so much fan input though.
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Post by aindriu on Jun 9, 2017 20:26:43 GMT -6
Some pretty good points made on both sides of the crticism. I gotta wonder if the team ever gets stressed out from so much fan input though. I wonder this as well, to be honest.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 10, 2017 1:30:38 GMT -6
aindriu You said that you wish more people in the world could discuss their differences with the respect we are doing here, and i agree with you. I never participated in a forum so much like this one, i think, and i'm glad people here discuss differences politely and respectfully. You politely talked about your concerns, and i tried to go around what you said, as politely as possible too, and we kinda agree to disagree without the need of clashing. Scars Unseen I agree with you about the negativity. I think constructive criticism is always needed, and, in fact, people nowadays are very black and white about their opinions. Or something sucks, or something is the best thing ever. I'm enjoying everything i'm seeing about Bloodstained so far, as i already said, but yes, i'm worried about the backlash, i'm not attacking the backlash. Your opinion (or aindriu opinion, for instance) could be considered a backlash at some points of it, but i'm not attacking that. I'm worried about that, because i truly hope this game succeeds. fatihG I have no knowledge about specific programming like you do, but i agree, the game needs polishing. Although, for my personal opinion, the game already went out of "having potential". If Bloodstained ended up to be exactly like it is now, i would be satisfied. chocolatestain I wonder the same. I'm not worried too much about how they take backlash, because they are adults working on a project, they are used to that. But it takes it's toll, for sure.
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Post by spideryfingers on Jun 10, 2017 4:10:05 GMT -6
Negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia. And I very strongly disagree with this so long as those comments are made respectfully. Disagreeing with negative commentary is fine. Correcting incorrect comments is fine. Telling people that they shouldn't make criticism? No. I'm not okay with that. That's how you get an echo chamber. Telling people that they have no reason to be disappointed in the current state of the game isn't helpful in the least. It's actually somewhat dismissive and insulting. Better just to post your own positive criticism rather than try to demean those who don't share it. I stated that negative comments can be contagious and spread paranoia. I wasn't saying that it does. Some of the negative comments on Youtube are cynical and somewhat fatalistic and goes against the grain of the moral majority who have high aspirations for Bloodstained. I'm sticking to my belief that folk have no reason to be disappointed with the current progress of the game. I see it as positive and encouraging considering its limited budget and the fact that Mr Igarashi wants to make it as good as SotN or even better. I have strong faith in Iga ... have you?
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Post by Scars Unseen on Jun 10, 2017 4:35:35 GMT -6
I have strong faith in Iga ... have you? Okay, this is the closest I'm going to get here to being actually hostile. STOP. THAT.We will NOT be having loyalty tests of all the ridiculous things in this community. I will post my criticisms in this thread and anywhere else in this community that I feel like, and that's perfectly okay because I do so in a respectful manner with the intent of providing feedback for the developers that they can read and take into account or discard at their pleasure. If that is a problem for you, then you should ignore it because right now? This passive aggressive dismissal of any opinion that doesn't coincide with your own? You can take that right out of here.
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Post by Mr. German on Jun 10, 2017 4:51:18 GMT -6
I looked at all the footage again from yesterday and then looked at some SOTN footage and came to the conclusion, that besides some more or less minor complaints, bloodstained becomes exactly what IGA pitched: A castlevania/sotn "reboot" with more content, modes and modern technology for modern systems. And I am VERY pleased.
I also want to add that I don't have any nostalgic feelings about this game. I bought dracula x chronicles on my vita AFTER the bloodstained crowdfunding campaign was over, because I never played any castlevania game before and wanted to understand the hype about bloodstained. I enjoyed rondo of blood and SOTN and became a slacker-backer.
So, I am not disappointed, but I understand all your concerns. I don't think it will end up as a bad game. Since the hype around this game is based on NOSTALGIA, it can NEVER satisfy all the castlevania-fans completely, that's not possible, just look at the reactions on yooka-laylee, it's just like banjo kazooie with all the flaws, but a lot bigger. the backers of that game played the old games as KIDS, you can't copy the feeling of playing such games as kids, when you are an adult. I say that, because thats how I feel about it. (I leave mighty no 9 out, because inafune clearly hasn't put nearly he same passion in that project as IGA and thought more about expanding the franchise and keeping the costs low, like the pure businessman that he is. I mean IGA in comparison even got more devs on board to meet his quality standards, that burns a lot of money).
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 10, 2017 6:51:01 GMT -6
I have strong faith in Iga ... have you? Okay, this is the closest I'm going to get here to being actually hostile. STOP. THAT.We will NOT be having loyalty tests of all the ridiculous things in this community. I will post my criticisms in this thread and anywhere else in this community that I feel like, and that's perfectly okay because I do so in a respectful manner with the intent of providing feedback for the developers that they can read and take into account or discard at their pleasure. If that is a problem for you, then you should ignore it because right now? This passive aggressive dismissal of any opinion that doesn't coincide with your own? You can take that right out of here. Calm down, Scars. Like I said above, I welcome constructive criticism to make the game better and we dont have an echo chamber in here. On the other hand, constructive criticism should also be discussed in itself. I dont think spidery was being passive aggressive, the "faith in IGA" bit is probably a reference to how we're impressed with IGA's work and how we're all members of the Army of the Night 😁 So lets all calm down and have some
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Post by Rigel on Jun 10, 2017 9:51:29 GMT -6
At first the E3 trailer looked strange for me. Then I paid more attention to the details and the backgorunds are amazing. The problem is the lack of enemies and enemy variation. When they develop more creatures and distribute them as they know, the general picture of the game will improve significantly.
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Post by Ciel on Jun 10, 2017 10:53:36 GMT -6
Okay, this is the closest I'm going to get here to being actually hostile. STOP. THAT.We will NOT be having loyalty tests of all the ridiculous things in this community. I will post my criticisms in this thread and anywhere else in this community that I feel like, and that's perfectly okay because I do so in a respectful manner with the intent of providing feedback for the developers that they can read and take into account or discard at their pleasure. If that is a problem for you, then you should ignore it because right now? This passive aggressive dismissal of any opinion that doesn't coincide with your own? You can take that right out of here. Calm down, Scars. Like I said above, I welcome constructive criticism to make the game better and we dont have an echo chamber in here. On the other hand, constructive criticism should also be discussed in itself. I dont think spidery was being passive aggressive, the "faith in IGA" bit is probably a reference to how we're impressed with IGA's work and how we're all members of the Army of the Night 😁 So lets all calm down and have some I'll just give my two cents as someone who, just like you and Scars Unseen, is here since the beginning. First of all, I don't think Scars has, ever, being hostile or aggressive in this forum (well, maybe until the quoted post there). Almost everytime he gives his opinion, he does so being constructive for the sake of feedback, though generally people don't agree with him. Second, and this is one of the reasons that made me stop to come here, is that there is way too much of a positive aura in this place. I'm not saying we should act like the youtube comments section, but we can't blind ourselves from the problems the game has now (dismissing them just because the game is still in development), and see everything from a positive light. Actually, this is the best time to give valid criticism, because time isn't our greatest enemy (yet). That being said, see what happened in this thread. Some members were displeased with some aspects of the game, so they provided arguments to base their claims. Doing so, they gave valid criticism while being respectful and polite. Then, others appeared trying to dismiss their arguments because the game still is in development, or because it would create some kind of backlash, essentially suffocating opinions that aren't positive just because. Here is one thought of mine: if something is bad, you have to point and say it is bad. You can't dismiss a valid argument because you're afraid of its consequences. Arguing that said argument isn't valid is the correct way of behaving yourself in a forum. Finally, if you disagree with someone, and you're willing to discuss, then do it. Else, ignore it and move on.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 10, 2017 12:53:55 GMT -6
Calm down, Scars. Like I said above, I welcome constructive criticism to make the game better and we dont have an echo chamber in here. On the other hand, constructive criticism should also be discussed in itself. I dont think spidery was being passive aggressive, the "faith in IGA" bit is probably a reference to how we're impressed with IGA's work and how we're all members of the Army of the Night 😁 So lets all calm down and have some I'll just give my two cents as someone who, just like you and Scars Unseen , is here since the beginning. First of all, I don't think Scars has, ever, being hostile or aggressive in this forum (well, maybe until the quoted post there). Almost everytime he gives his opinion, he does so being constructive for the sake of feedback, though generally people don't agree with him. Second, and this is one of the reasons that made me stop to come here, is that there is way too much of a positive aura in this place. I'm not saying we should act like the youtube comments section, but we can't blind ourselves from the problems the game has now (dismissing them just because the game is still in development), and see everything from a positive light. Actually, this is the best time to give valid criticism, because time isn't our greatest enemy (yet). That being said, see what happened in this thread. Some members were displeased with some aspects of the game, so they provided arguments to base their claims. Doing so, they gave valid criticism while being respectful and polite. Then, others appeared trying to dismiss their arguments because the game still is in development, or because it would create some kind of backlash, essentially suffocating opinions that aren't positive just because. Here is one thought of mine: if something is bad, you have to point and say it is bad. You can't dismiss a valid argument because you're afraid of its consequences. Arguing that said argument isn't valid is the correct way of behaving yourself in a forum. Finally, if you disagree with someone, and you're willing to discuss, then do it. Else, ignore it and move on. I think you have the right to stop coming here for the reason you stated (although i don't think it is a good reason, it is a valid one). And i agree that people shouldn't shame others for their negative opinions. What i can say about myself (that i even told to Scars Unseen ) is that i have a emotional link to the whole Castlevania / Metroidvania / Igavania convo and i personally admire IGA, so, i'm totally aware that this clounds my rational judgment and i'm mostly biased towards wishing things are good and will be better. That's why, when i talk back to negative feedback / comments, i try to be as polite as possible, but, yes, i do talk back to most kinds of negative feedback because that's just how i am. Admiting that this is mostly due to me being consciously biased but i don't think this is sufofcating negative opinions. If i am, i'm truly sorry and i will try to change how i behave. I don't know about others, but i think, maybe, some people here are a bit like me. Have such a emotional link to all this convo that they let this cloud their rational judgment, and they try to argue to protect what we want to be great. This is such a well-organized forum that, if "Suffocating negative opinions" is really happening, it would be good if that stopped. All in all, we are all at the same side here. We all want this game to be great. So, let's not suffocate negative opinions here. And i'm truly sorry if i ever did that.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 10, 2017 16:46:28 GMT -6
Calm down, Scars. Like I said above, I welcome constructive criticism to make the game better and we dont have an echo chamber in here. On the other hand, constructive criticism should also be discussed in itself. I dont think spidery was being passive aggressive, the "faith in IGA" bit is probably a reference to how we're impressed with IGA's work and how we're all members of the Army of the Night 😁 So lets all calm down and have some I'll just give my two cents as someone who, just like you and Scars Unseen , is here since the beginning. First of all, I don't think Scars has, ever, being hostile or aggressive in this forum (well, maybe until the quoted post there). Almost everytime he gives his opinion, he does so being constructive for the sake of feedback, though generally people don't agree with him. Second, and this is one of the reasons that made me stop to come here, is that there is way too much of a positive aura in this place. I'm not saying we should act like the youtube comments section, but we can't blind ourselves from the problems the game has now (dismissing them just because the game is still in development), and see everything from a positive light. Actually, this is the best time to give valid criticism, because time isn't our greatest enemy (yet). That being said, see what happened in this thread. Some members were displeased with some aspects of the game, so they provided arguments to base their claims. Doing so, they gave valid criticism while being respectful and polite. Then, others appeared trying to dismiss their arguments because the game still is in development, or because it would create some kind of backlash, essentially suffocating opinions that aren't positive just because. Here is one thought of mine: if something is bad, you have to point and say it is bad. You can't dismiss a valid argument because you're afraid of its consequences. Arguing that said argument isn't valid is the correct way of behaving yourself in a forum. Finally, if you disagree with someone, and you're willing to discuss, then do it. Else, ignore it and move on. I understand where you're coming from and like I said, we do value negative opinions as long as they're expressed respectfully, like any other post. I just thought the all caps and red text might have been overboard, thats all. Was't seriously chastising Scars or anyone else, its just that when folks start using all caps, its often a sign things are getting more heated than I'd like, so might as well cool things down
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 10, 2017 19:32:23 GMT -6
The only thing I don't like is the weird glowing blue stuff around the familiar and ape summon. Just use a different colored texture of the enemy why do they have to make it stick out so much in a meh way?
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Post by nekurors on Jun 11, 2017 0:35:51 GMT -6
No i am not disappointed, on the contrary i am very glad on what i see, obviously not perfect yet but seems on the right track, i have watched the trailer over and over again, took screenshots and still can't see anything to complain yet except very ponctual details like the lack of detail when the rocks are destroyed by the bell falling, the strange blue glowing color of the familiars (this certainly needs to be updated) and the lack of background "life", though all of that have no impact on the core of the game that i believe is just right. I would like the familiars to be more similar to the actual creature instead of something like a spirit as it seems, maybe just add a little detail or effect on them and thats good. About the bell falling it just need more polishment on the breaking effect, no big deal, and on the issue of the stand still chandelier it should move slightly as i have many said, well that another polishment detail, the same question goes for the boss room white curtains, they should move with the breeze, all these little things change a lot the game atmosphere. Another thing i did figured out is that that lake part should have random jumping fishes and stuff and sounds going on there, that would be amazing, maybe even rare enemies jumping from the water and coming to you in surprise . Another issue with the boss room is that the cages should swing around sometimes, maybe they could even have a skeleton or other enemy inside just for fun. About Miriam's hair as you guys stated, well realistic hair is probably the hardest thing to do on a 3D game, both from the dev team skills and time as the impact on performance, but who knows maybe we could separate her hair on just a few segments and these whole segments moves instead of more detailed hair strands, but it's hard to expect such advance features from an indie, so i won't bother on asking for it and i am sure the dev team knows that it would be much better if they could do that, we will see. I would like if you guys posted images indicating what you think is wrong with the style, colours and stuff... it's hard to understand properly a matter of graphical style just from talking, all i can see is that there is a problem (old one i guess) that Miriam and many enemies still stand out too much compared to the background, not sure how to fix that though. I still have a feeling that is the 3D aesthetic that give you guys these "out of place" feeling on several matters, because it is a COMPLETELY different way to produce an igavania compared to previously 240p pixel-art, probably because before everything was so unrealistic and super undetailed/undefined that most things you used your imagination and know things are so much detailed that it feels wrong (think about how Pokemon would be on an realistic 3D engine for instance ) i truly belive that this is the main problem for the people who disliked it so far, and i really don't see any way around it, no matter what you do 3D will never have that perfect contrast and tweaked colours from the previous games because of the nature of 3D models and the high-resolution experience, but there still a long time for extra tweaks, hopefully the end product will satisfy your tastes.
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Post by spanishvanguardia on Jun 11, 2017 9:18:23 GMT -6
The one reason I am not more actively participating in the forums, as well as annoying people on discord, is because I feel safe with the directions the game is taking.
I see many possibilities and many suggestions, but none of thse seems to be against what I backed. And I am a very paranoid person when it comes to pledging money.
I understand the game has specific visual flaws as it has been presented during development. But, at the same time, I seriously doubt they will not be taken care of.
Now, if Iga suddenly posted a video where he's talkign about `chaining combos into combos for that hot combo action´, now then I would be worried.
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Post by Astaroth on Jun 11, 2017 11:43:28 GMT -6
the backgrounds being disconnected from the main character is a necessity, her popping out from the background means the shaders doing its job and you can see her, go play cirlcle of the moon where the character and backgrounds share the exact same art style and coloration and see how easy it is to hide him
now they could tweak the background shaders to give the backgrounds a slightly more painterly style and bring the whole together in the future, but that is an aesthetic choice best made once they have test locations for the whole game and can see the differences any tweaks made will have across the entire game rather than at the start when they primarily had gummy maps a single location and the character
im not worried at all, with what i know of game dev this game is going fairly smoothly, once the demo is done they can use the dev cut of that demo to test everything and once that is satisfactory they can start looking into mass production and populate the game
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