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Post by Jango on Dec 7, 2015 9:28:45 GMT -6
I honestly hadn't even noticed the change to Miriam's shoulder. It's a very subtle change. So subtle, in fact, that it seems more the cause of function than anything else.
However, if it was for the reason of showing less skin then that begs the question of what age group this game is targeting and what is the intended rating.
Personally, I hope the game isn't aiming toward too young a demographic. I imagine most of this games backers and potential consumers are older gamers by a rather large margin. Castlevania isn't Kingdom Hearts, but that is the kind of the vibe I got from the newly released material. I'm not saying I'd want a M rating for this game at all, but we are talking about a game called "Bloodstained" here. Less Portrait of Ruin and more SotN or OoE is what Im hoping for.
That said, a shoulder/ clavical/ heart aren't sexual. If one sees them as such then that speaks more about the person and less about the subject in question. Im fairly certain that a generous amount of Zangetsu's chest is bare as well. Is that sexual? I'd like to see double standards such as these avoided if possible. Miriam's bare chest is perhaps the biggest focus of her entire design, not because of any intent to seem sexual, but rather to show visibly the corruption that is threatening to consume her, perhaps not just physically but emotionally/spiritually as well. Placing an emphasis on the corruption that is gathering so close to her physical heart illustrates this quite elegantly, and I hope that doesn't change.
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Dec 7, 2015 10:13:42 GMT -6
I honestly hadn't even noticed the change to Miriam's shoulder. It's a very subtle change. So subtle, in fact, that it seems more the cause of function than anything else. However, if it was for the reason of showing less skin then that begs the question of what age group this game is targeting and what is the intended rating. Personally, I hope the game isn't aiming toward too young a demographic. I imagine most of this games backers and potential consumers are older gamers by a rather large margin. Castlevania isn't Kingdom Hearts, but that is the kind of the vibe I got from the newly released material. I'm not saying I'd want a M rating for this game at all, but we are talking about a game called "Bloodstained" here. Less Portrait of Ruin and more SotN or OoE is what Im hoping for. That said, a shoulder/ clavical/ heart aren't sexual. If one sees them as such then that speaks more about the person and less about the subject in question. Im fairly certain that a generous amount of Zangetsu's chest is bare as well. Is that sexual? I'd like to see double standards such as these avoided if possible. Miriam's bare chest is perhaps the biggest focus of her entire design, not because of any intent to seem sexual, but rather to show visibly the corruption that is threatening to consume her, perhaps not just physically but emotionally/spiritually as well. Placing an emphasis on the corruption that is gathering so close to her physical heart illustrates this quite elegantly, and I hope that doesn't change. I wouldn't worry about that, Iga knows his demographic and doesn't shy away from any kind of explicit theme when it's appropriate. As for your second point, absolutely, I agree with that as well. The exposed skin on Miriam's design is there for a very specific purpose that you explained very well. |
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 7, 2015 13:33:31 GMT -6
I think i prefer what they did on the 3d, rather than the artwork. By covering her shoulder, you can have a better look at her left breast. It makes her left breast stick out more, giving an enphasis on it, because you automatically focus more on there. As explained before, the curse begins as crystal plates taking over the skin, but Johannes was able to do a magic in order to stop the process. The areas where the process was stopped, joined together forming a rose-like crystal with the magic letters blocking it from spread (Gebel didn't want to do it, that's why he has no roses on his body).
Also, Iga's said that Miriam’s heart is partially crystallized, whereas Gebel is crystallized everywhere except his heart. The rose on her left breast, symbolizes the crystals on her heart. The gaze focus on there is good for that too. It remembers you that her heart have crystals, and maybe those on her left breast where part of the curse on her heart. And Johannes blocked there with his magic, so, her heart was only partially crystalized.
So, the focus on her left breast have a good context and it is a good idea to make that area more visible. Iga said that the fact that Miriam's heart has crystals and Gebel's heart don't is important, and that he hoped the players could guess what that means.
Of course, maybe they didn't think any of that. But i think it is a good idea.
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Ciel
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Post by Ciel on Dec 7, 2015 16:02:21 GMT -6
Anyone like Dan G pushing for realism in a fantasy action game is missing the point and should consider something outside of their tiny bubble. It sure is tiring to call everything "oversexualized" when there's any skin showing. If you want oversexualized then look at MMORPG armors and you will actually have a case. Ontopic: I prefer the original concept With the higher blouse and bare shoulder I can see the rose easier at the original flatter angle than the new skewed angle (thanks to her breast). The rose is an important design so being able to see it is important, without seeing the shoulder it looks more like the rose is just an isolated area but we can see the connection of her sword, rose, and shoulder crystals when we can see it in plain view. The new armor pieces over her shoulder just look clunky lacking the simplicity elegant flair of the original. This. I agree 100% with you. Why they should focus on realistical things in a fantasy game? Hell this is a game, unless we are talking about a SIMULATOR, there's no need for realism. And please don't bring the "sexualization" topic here, I still don't know why there is a commotion about this subject recently in the game industry. Games are fictional stories about idealized things (unless, again, when the game is supposed to be a simulator) created by the fantasy of its producer (developer, author, whatever). They (the development team) should be free to do whatever they want with the game. If they want do put a female character with high sex appeal in a thriller game, so be it. If you don't like what they made, just don't buy it and keep in mind that is your opinion. Others might like it and are willing to play the game. I'm not saying your opinion isn't important, but you can't force your taste in anyone. In the end, it's their game and they can do whatever they want. Anyway I'm just sick of this subject. Sorry if anyone got offended. |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 7, 2015 16:16:09 GMT -6
I don't think what you said is offensive. I like your new avatar picture. That first line in that quote is a personal attack though. There is a difference between making a point and being insulting to a specific person.
Instead of
Anyone like Dan G pushing for realism in a fantasy action game is missing the point and should consider something outside of their tiny bubble.
Just say
We don't have to have realism in a fantasy game.
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Post by crocodile on Dec 7, 2015 16:50:03 GMT -6
People knew what they were getting into when they backed the game, the main character's design barely change from back when she was first revealed and I doubt she will change that much. Trying to change her now to lower her sex appeal because other games use it the wrong way or just because some people want to be PC is simply not the way to go and ends up affecting the author's creativity and freedom. I really hope that kind of people don't affect this game at all, I've been waiting for years for a new igavania with a Shanoa-ish main character  I don't mind the outfit personally but I do wish instead of increasing her bust size 10-fold they made the stained glass look like stained glass (priorities!). As a side note...if they do fix it, it would be cool if it was a bit translucent and you could see her heart beating. If you look at the collection of all the official art, I wouldn't call Miriam a "small" woman. Which is a-ok. I understand the overall pushback against over-represented body types in gaming and what not but I always do feel a bit uncomfortable when the argument focuses primarily on "X is too big" as if that isn't a way in which actual women naturally vary as well. Now of course its not actually "body shaming" because Miriam isn't a real person. But it gets a little too close for my comfort. That's how I feel at least. As for the character model, a good point was brought up by Rednavi in that the modeling does work to highlight the curse and make it more visible and to that end I think it was a good move on their part so I'll stand by that. The curse mark itself could stand to look more like glass than a tattoo but that is something that will obviously be refined with time. Actually getting to see her heart through the mark I'd assume is a level of detail that's impossible to reach (and have it look good) outside of extreme closeups and any cutscences that might use the game engine. |
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Apollonian
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 7, 2015 17:25:43 GMT -6
I don't mind the outfit personally but I do wish instead of increasing her bust size 10-fold they made the stained glass look like stained glass (priorities!). As a side note...if they do fix it, it would be cool if it was a bit translucent and you could see her heart beating. If you look at the collection of all the official art, I wouldn't call Miriam a "small" woman. Which is a-ok. I understand the overall pushback against over-represented body types in gaming and what not but I always do feel a bit uncomfortable when the argument focuses primarily on "X is too big" as if that isn't a way in which actual women naturally vary as well. Now of course its not actually "body shaming" because Miriam isn't a real person. But it gets a little too close for my comfort. That's how I feel at least. As for the character model, a good point was brought up by Rednavi in that the modeling does work to highlight the curse and make it more visible and to that end I think it was a good move on their part so I'll stand by that. The curse mark itself could stand to look more like glass than a tattoo but that is something that will obviously be refined with time. Actually getting to see her heart through the mark I'd assume is a level of detail that's impossible to reach (and have it look good) outside of extreme closeups and any cutscences that might use the game engine. I don't actually care what Miriam's body dimensions are in any way just to be clear. I was just surprised to see the picture someone posted in the thread that really highlighted the difference. Reminds me of watching a particular anime and seeing that one character get "enhanced" throughout. Considering it is the only "major" change to the character model it just seems kinda weird. I think the stain glass actually would look more effective on the "flatter" surface. Edit: I just looked again and the reason it looks better flatter is that rounded stain glass just doesn't look like glass. They can keep the bust size however they want but the need to flatten the area with the glass at least imo. Just reread that and I am done talking about that feature, felt like reading that cringe-worthy NIS dialogue where they have to talk about breasts all the time and often end up comparing them to dinner foods.  |
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Post by kowakaki on Dec 7, 2015 17:54:09 GMT -6
Maybe the truth just hurts? Your defense is rather weak, yes I hit him a little hard but I still stand by what I said. There's a very big difference between just reproducing something and taking inspiration. This is a cultural thing and people should have some respect. When Dan said the design was "feeling out of place" is more insulting and arrogant (not to me) than anything I've said. It's Iga's world and I don't think Dan has any insider insight to Iga's world building to even make such a claim. Ubisoft takes great care to make their games very realistic & accurate but that doesn't mean everyone has to do it. I will still say that someone who thinks like that only has a very narrow and biased exposure to the medium and there's countless examples of going outside of the norm in fantasy.
Western fantasy tends to be more realistic, subdued and serious. But this isn't being made by the west, it's in Japan who favor more wild and free. It's not about more "appropriate" designs, because Inti Creates clearly did a great job on giving Bloodstained a clear Victorian inspired base. The pure costume is within the same world, only earlier. So the only difference to Miriam's clothes is small alterations and thats an extremely common element in fictional works that the character will get a new look to go with their new abilities. It's just about trying to push western ideals onto the developers, the same thing happened with Inti's last game Mn9. Just let the creators tell their story how they want.
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 7, 2015 18:00:23 GMT -6
Maybe the truth just hurts? Your defense is rather weak, yes I hit him a little hard but I still stand by what I said. There's a very big difference between just reproducing something and taking inspiration. This is a cultural thing and people should have some respect. When Dan said the design was "feeling out of place" is more insulting and arrogant (not to me) than anything I've said. It's Iga's world and I don't think Dan has any insider insight to Iga's world building to even make such a claim. Ubisoft takes great care to make their games very realistic & accurate but that doesn't mean everyone has to do it. I will still say that someone who thinks like that only has a very narrow and biased exposure to the medium and there's countless examples of going outside of the norm in fantasy. Western fantasy tends to be more realistic, subdued and serious. But this isn't being made by the west, it's in Japan who favor more wild and free. It's not about more "appropriate" designs, because Inti Creates clearly did a great job on giving Bloodstained a clear Victorian inspired base. The pure costume is within the same world, only earlier. So the only difference to Miriam's clothes is small alterations and thats an extremely common element in fictional works that the character will get a new look to go with their new abilities. It's just about trying to push western ideals onto the developers, the same thing happened with Inti's last game Mn9. Just let the creators tell their story how they want. I am just applying your logic, your hostility speaks volumes. I would argue with you but when you make this a cultural thing it is just too ridiculous. I am a humanist and this whole east vs west notion is antiquated. There is a difference between something being influenced by a culture and defined by it. |
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Post by kowakaki on Dec 7, 2015 18:05:33 GMT -6
"I would argue with you but when you make this a cultural thing it is just too ridiculous. I am a humanist and this whole east vs west notion is antiquated."
Obviously you are not following entertainment media since this is rampant across it. I can only guess you're either self delusional or just unaware.
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Post by Artemisian on Dec 7, 2015 18:21:16 GMT -6
Wow, the rudeness needs to stop. There is a lot of hostility and no reason for it. People have different views, whatever. It is fine to disagree, but you can do it in a respectful way. There is no reason to insult ANYONE for their views on the subject. Just say you simply disagree and state what you think. That is a discussion..
In the end it is really up to the development team and Iga..
In my opinion, I think the extra shoulder piece looks a bit silly. I like having that side of her exposed. I do think her slightly bigger bust size makes the stained glass look a bit distorted, to me it honestly looks like she has tattoos all over her body, which is unfortunate because I think they could make her look really amazing if they tried to make it a bit more like glass. I love the idea also that the glass would be see through and you could see the inside as well.
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Apollonian
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[TI2]Drink stale wine to your heart's delight
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 7, 2015 18:27:10 GMT -6
Wow, the rudeness needs to stop. There is a lot of hostility and no reason for it. People have different views, whatever. It is fine to disagree, but you can do it in a respectful way. There is no reason to insult ANYONE for their views on the subject. Just say you simply disagree and state what you think. That is a discussion.. In the end it is really up to the development team and Iga.. In my opinion, I think the extra shoulder piece looks a bit silly. I like having that side of her exposed. I do think her slightly bigger bust size makes the stained glass look a bit distorted, to me it honestly looks like she has tattoos all over her body, which is unfortunate because I think they could make her look really amazing if they tried to make it a bit more like glass. I love the idea also that the glass would be see through and you could see the inside as well. Yeah, I'm pretty sick of the childishness. You don't "win" a debate by insulting someone. Reminds me of this: Edit: Removed hilarious gifs incase they offend. lol Speaking of the shoulder issue (since that is the point of this thread) I definitely think that if they want it covered they should have gone with a small stylistic pauldron. I don't mind the cloth but I really don't think it is adding anything to the feel of the outfit. |
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ChucklesTheJester
Ancient Legion
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Dec 7, 2015 18:33:10 GMT -6
Okay guys, let's stop and wait for Mike to wake up. This thread went to places I'm sure nobody wanted it to go, and I think some moderation needs to be exercised for this to work out.
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Post by crocodile on Dec 7, 2015 18:42:12 GMT -6
It wasn't my intention to make to feel uncomfortable Apollonian so I'm sorry if that's what happened. Wow, the rudeness needs to stop. There is a lot of hostility and no reason for it. People have different views, whatever. It is fine to disagree, but you can do it in a respectful way. There is no reason to insult ANYONE for their views on the subject. Just say you simply disagree and state what you think. That is a discussion.. In the end it is really up to the development team and Iga.. In my opinion, I think the extra shoulder piece looks a bit silly. I like having that side of her exposed. I do think her slightly bigger bust size makes the stained glass look a bit distorted, to me it honestly looks like she has tattoos all over her body, which is unfortunate because I think they could make her look really amazing if they tried to make it a bit more like glass. I love the idea also that the glass would be see through and you could see the inside as well. I think its just a matter of color and texture with regards to the curse mark. Like this modification of the shaders by Mike below I think does a better job of making it look more like glass:  So its clear just a slight bit of tweaking can get it right. Though to be honest, the more I look at the original pictures, the more ok I am with the curse mark as is (at least in Shader #1). Again it can be improved upon but I feel I like it more than I did looking at it a few days ago. Okay guys, let's stop and wait for Mike to wake up. This thread went to places I'm sure nobody wanted it to go, and I think some moderation needs to be exercised for this to work out. Not all of us agree (communities, how do they work?  ) and what not but I thought this conversation is/was very civil and respectful with the exception of one poster. I hope kowakaki can relax a bit Also, to Apollonian , I think I'd remove those gifs in your most recent post. That's just going to lead to escalation |
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Ciel
Executor of the Church
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Post by Ciel on Dec 7, 2015 18:45:13 GMT -6
Okay guys, let's stop and wait for Mike to wake up. This thread went to places I'm sure nobody wanted it to go, and I think some moderation needs to be exercised for this to work out. This, I did agree with one of the parties, but now this is just too much. |
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Apollonian
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[TI2]Drink stale wine to your heart's delight
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 7, 2015 18:52:45 GMT -6
Not at all Croc, no need to apologize. Suggestion taken (although I still think they were funny)
I agree that Mike doesn't need to be involved. Hopefully I didn't offend the guest user (not being rude...I forgot the name) and I didn't really care about what they said to me.
I do like Mike's shader modification, it certainly helps get the look a bit closer to glass. I still feel that the glass portion should be flat, maybe inset slightly in the flesh (that is how it would appear at least).
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Neowulf
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Post by Neowulf on Dec 7, 2015 19:02:30 GMT -6
I kinda like it without.
Makes the asymmetry stand out more.
Edit: Just realized what happened here. Don't mean to intrude, just dropping my two cents.
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Post by Ciel on Dec 7, 2015 19:07:01 GMT -6
I kinda like it without. Makes the asymmetry stand out more. Edit: Just realized what happened here. Don't mean to intrude, just dropping my two cents. Every cent is meaningful Neowulf, remember that. |
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 7, 2015 19:09:19 GMT -6
I kinda like it without. Makes the asymmetry stand out more. Edit: Just realized what happened here. Don't mean to intrude, just dropping my two cents. Every cent is meaningful Neowulf , remember that. I agree, once we have enough to make a dollar we can present it to Iga and he will pat our collective heads.  I completely agree with Neowulf, it really does make the asymmetry stand out more. |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 7, 2015 20:50:00 GMT -6
Remember to use the post reporting system if someone breaks the rules. It is hard for the mods to read everything as quickly as it's happening, and making a report shows up to each moderator. I like that reports have hardly needed to be used in this community. The cases are few and far between. It's best when people can work out their differences without insulting each other and without moderator interjection. We don't like to feel like rule enforcing SJWs, but rules exist for a reason and will be enforced.
If you feel personally insulted and need a moderator, please report it and it will be dealt with.
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) and what not but I thought this conversation is/was very civil and respectful with the exception of one poster. I hope kowakaki can relax a bit 
yey