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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2017 0:38:40 GMT -6
You could even have a Miriam doll ala the Alucard vs. Alucard fight. Sure, blatant ripoff, but fine by me! Ooooooh, a doppelganger doll! That sounds like a fantastic concept. I so want this now! --- My opinions regarding levels of disappointment and/or not such: I think in some way I did disappoint myself for reasons that are mostly my own and not the devs. Y'see, I kept seeing this pitched as a spiritual successor to Symphony of the Night specifically. SotN is my favorite game of all time. So instantly the hype launched me forward and I dropped $125 into it, first (and so far only) time ever backing a crowdfunded project. Ran the hype train the rest of the way, with Bloodstained beating out all other games in funding (till Shenmue had to steal the glory x x ) and even beating the Veronica Mars movie after Paypal was taken into account. The marketing was ingenious, not only rewarding more content for raw dollars, but also for the amount of fan content produced and shared, spreading the word like wildfire, leaving the only thing able to top its reach being an E3 reveal. They revealed the crystal shard system, and suddenly there was this twinge of worry, but I couldn't spot why. It wasn't for quite some time later that I realized the problem. I was a Symphony of the Night fan, not necessarily a Castlevania fan.
While SotN is my favorite game of all time, the other games don't even make it into my top 10. And the crystal shard system sparked that concern in me when I realized that although I came into this for a spiritual successor to SotN, what I really backed was a spiritual succesor to Igavanias as a whole. And at the time I thought maybe the reason I didn't like the others as much was because I don't like playing handheld games. This is my fault alone though, and I've decided to completely own up to my decision. Anywho, a few months ago I had the opportunity to play Dawn of Sorrow on a modded Wii U Virtual Console (Note: Yes, technically piracy. I modded my Wii U to play DS games I own that Nintendo never put on the VC, so that I can play them on a big screen. Now that the Wii U is dead and the Switch is a single screen experience that is only touch based in handheld mode, I'm 99% sure a TV experience of the Castlevania DS games will never happen unless Konami decides to respect Iga's work all of a sudden and make a remastered collection. Many people won't care for my defense, but I thought it was worth a note, for at least if anyone was wondering how I got DoS on Wii U.) And I beat Dawn of Sorrow... but some things about the game still didn't sit right with me. So I've taken some time to sit down and think about what it was about SotN that skyrockets it to my #1 game that I will gladly beat over and over and over again, several times on every console (PS1, 2, 3, X360, PSP, PSTV, and emulated PS1 and Saturn at some point) as opposed to the other games not really scratching the same itch. 1. A big thing was certainly aesthetic appeal. The GBA games never really hit that for me due to the limitations of the hardware and I figured that was fine. (As a seperate issue, I wasn't ever huge on the Belmont style so HoD and CotM didn't do it for me in most aspects, though I still go back to them from time to time. I like the games, they just aren't my favorite sort of games. Also they're hard and I'm bad at games. ) But in regards to Dawn of Sorrow... there was a lot of samey looking environments. The color pallete loved white and grey, maybe some stone blue mixed it. Snowy area at the start, a completely grey area like Alchemy Lab, all of the warp and save points were white/grey/stone blue, even the garden area employed more greyblue than green like you'd expect. Other colors in the game were still pretty toned down, like pale browns. Not to say Dawn didn't have any visually distinct areas, but they did seem few and far between. The only area I can think of that felt the same way in Symphony was Orlox's chamber, and this was alleviated once reaching its outdoor section. Also it was a pretty small area and most of it was optional, serving for the most part as a pathway to the Colisseum (which is visually one of my favorite areas in the game, but maybe the music is what help assisted that.) I've played a little bit of Portrait of Ruin and so far the environments look much better in my opinion. They do a lot more to scratch the itch for unique environments than Dawn did. Maybe I'd like Portrait more like I do SotN... if only I could do a better job against the bosses so that I could actually experience more of the game ; ; 2. SotN had a lot of character. Little things like the gargoyle paralysis effect, the room in the chapel where you can speak to ghosts, being able to sit in just about any chair, the interactions with the familiars in which some can talk to you (despite the voice acting), and the way they evolve and learn and improve, especially the Fairy as it got smarter and would even use elemental potions as helpful which would even in a sense give you advice on how to take on certain enemies without just giving you a chart to read... The way your cloak actually changed your appearance as you equipped new ones (something I'm super excited that Bloodstained is taking queues from)... there were a lot of little events like these that just seemed to give the game a lot of charm compared to the others. It's like... no matter how many times I played the game, there might still be some neat little egg to unravel. Which leads me to my biggest point: 3. Unraveling things! So from what I understand, in Classicvanias, the only thing really stopping you from your goal is your own skill and execution. You had all of the tools necessary from the start to complete the level, and while having knowledge of a few things like where the wall chickens were or where certain subitems were could help, none of it was going to matter if you didn't have the skill to back it up. Which is great for some, but it does leave only one way to go about the game: Get good. Put your skill and execution to the test, learn and improve, and win. And people love that, especially seemingly these days. But that's not for everybody— personally I'm all for the idea to a point until the frustration and punishment becomes unbearing and the game just isn't fun anymore. It stops feeling like it's worth my time, I put it down, and I move onto something else... never looking back. Okay, so what does that have to do with my point? Well... I feel like the way SotN handled its difficulty was ingenious. So I constantly hear that SotN is "too easy" as one of the game's biggest flaws. And 0riginally I just kinda nodded along and figured that for people who weren't me, yeah that was probably true. Especially if you're a Classicvania fan. But then, after a lot of experiments with sharing the game with friends, many of which had no experience with the franchise prior to this, I've started to notice a pattern. Is SotN only too easy if you already know its secrets?
Take Dark Souls as an example. I've played up to Sen's Fortress, where the environmental traps and catwalks became too much for me to handle. But before that, I used a guide to get that far, and the game was relatively easy. No, it certainly wasn't a breeze, but it was nothing compared to its reputation. This is because Dark Souls rewarded your exploration, your observational skills in both enemy tactics and hidden secrets, so well that it became an alternative to raw skill (At least for the segments I had gotten through— no words on what I haven't played.) When I had friends play SotN for the first time and observed their experience telling them nothing of the game, those that charged through without grinding and didn't happen to explore as much got their butts reamed. I was puzzled at first— I run through the game fairly easily while never stopping once to grind and I'm certainly not very skilled when it comes to reflexes and the like, so why is it that my friends who are way better at me in that regard are dying to Gaibon and Slogra?
Because I had a better eye for secrets. I didn't even know how at the time, but looking back at SotN's game design, it actually does a really good job at making you want to inspect the areas in which it hides stuff. (I could go on a whole other tangent on how that works, but this post is already way too long.) Anywho, I was good at finding these secrets, so I typically had more HP and Heart max UPs. I had better gear in certain places. I never needed to grind because the secret rewards made up for my lower levels and my lesser skill. I simply was offered the ability to make more mistakes than my friends. And this is the case of my point: There are three ways to beat SotN: Skill, Exploration, and Patience. You could run through the game without grinding and using easy to find gear if you're good at not getting hit. That's Skill. You could grind for levels or maybe a rare weapon like the Crissaegrim, spending your hours getting powerful so that you can face the oncoming obstacles with ease. That's Patience. I don't see the appeal of it very much, but others like that, and that's okay. Or, you can keep a close eye out, look for breakable walls and hidden items, maybe secret special abilities that your weapons ( or dare I say, Shields) can do, and use that to power you up in place of grinding. The game rewarded your skill, your exploration, and your patience, and that reward was sufficient so long as you were adept at one of these three things. I FRICKING LOVE THAT. So back to Dawn of Sorrow. I really wanted to like Dawn of Sorrow. But the Exploration felt... lacking. And sadly, this feels the same way for what I've played of every other Igavania to date. Not nearly as many secrets, not as rewarding of secrets, and in some unfortunate cases, not even as well designed secrets. There were walls that I'd regularly wonder "How was I supposed to find this without a random check or accidentally hitting it while goofing off?" Almost every secret in SotN, I can see in some way the player is supposed to be able to figure it out. That's not the case in many of the other Igavanias for many of the secrets I could find. And you know what Dawn of Sorrow did instead? It actually strengthened its focus on the "Patience" side, locking behind the game's powerful gear behind grinding for souls over and over and over and over and over and over to upgrade the ones you have. You don't get to find and discover the interesting weapons, you have to spend hours grinding the same enemies for them. I'd argue it's even worse than grinding Schmoo for the Crissaegrim, cause at least you only need it to drop once, then you never have to look at a Schmoo again . The Final Guard needs its soul for practically all of the major weapons. I will never forget re-entering the same room to kill Final Guards to get the best weapons. And that's for all of the wrong reasons. OK, so what does this all have to do with Bloodstained? Well... my biggest worry was that I backed a game for the elements I loved in SotN, and that Bloodstained would likely be as faithful to these elements as the other Igavanias are. So while in my mind at the time, I backed the spiritual successor to my favorite game of all time, it began to dawn on me that I more likely dropped $125 on the spiritual successor to those "similar games that were pretty neat and fun I guess but not my favorite and I'd probably never spend full price on them." In the back of my chest is this sincere hope that this game will provide what I want as well as those who enjoy the other vanias as much if not more than SotN. But my hopes are kind of being poked and prodded here. -Seeing a lot of whites and greys and washed out browns in everything we've seen in Bloodstained. It's got me pretty worried. The environments haven't interested me. I haven't seen anything that makes me want to explore it like I did SotN. It just feels like a setpiece for the combat. -Bloodstained likely isn't going to use Shard grinding to upgrade your weapons... but a crafting system of some sort is confirmed. This has the risk of being as bad if not worse than Dawn soul farming. -The demo... It was great for relieving concerns with character (Decent equipment slots, appearance changes are huge, and what's this? A familiar slot?! Yes!) But it really disappointed me in regards to exploration. For those of you who have played the demo and found the breakable wall in it (that wasn't through cannonfire). Did you find it because something in the game's design hinted to its possible secret? Or did you find it because you knew Castlevania had breakable walls so you were checking all or most of the walls for one just in case, and then happened to find it? Cause I'm willing to bet on the latter. There was nothing particularly distinctive about that wall. The sad thing is, if I remember correctly, there was another wall that did look conspicuous, had some stairs leading up to it or something, and it was nothing. That would have been far better design for a secret wall! You could argue that no conspicuous elements make for better hidden secrets, but I'd argue back that going through the castle attacking every wall you find for the hope that there could be something there isn't fun, and it's better for there to be some level of design to hint me into checking a wall out so that I don't have to do something so monotonous. Because that just drains the explorative wonder right out of me when I start having to search for these things systematically. I don't feel cunning and observant. Just patient. That's the other thing, with the leveling and grinding and stuff, remember? So all in all, I love SotN because it makes me want to explore. I love finding its secrets. I love powering through the castle with the secrets I've found. And the art and music is amazing and makes me want to see what's next. What other areas are out there. What other crazy enemy designs are there. I'm not in it for the skill based challenge. Lord knows I'm not in it for the grinding. I'm in it for the exploration. That's what makes SotN special to me. That's what hasn't hit as well for me for the other Igavanias. And that's what I find is really important for Bloodstained to hit the mark on for me— and what I'm especially concerned it won't do. TL;DR: Bloodstained looks like a fun action game I suppose, but SotN appealed to me as an adventure to explore.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 18, 2017 2:15:50 GMT -6
Hi there lovelydumpling ! I want to comment your huge and well-detailed comment, because i think you are right at some points and missing out some others. To make this easier, i'm going to delete part of your comment, to focus on the main aspects of it, and i will comment inside your quote, with a different color. Here goes: (...) I was a Symphony of the Night fan, not necessarily a Castlevania fan.
While SotN is my favorite game of all time, the other games don't even make it into my top 10. And the crystal shard system sparked that concern in me when I realized that although I came into this for a spiritual successor to SotN, what I really backed was a spiritual succesor to Igavanias as a whole. And at the time I thought maybe the reason I didn't like the others as much was because I don't like playing handheld games. This is my fault alone though, and I've decided to completely own up to my decision. (...) I think there are quite a lot of people here at the same situation. Symphony of the Night was IGA's most sucessfull game of all time, although he wasn't even the producer of it (he helped create the whole game and system, anyways). As far as i could see at the forums and at many other places, a lot of backers and non-backers supporting this game are Symphony of the Night fans and not necessarily Castlevania fans. So, i understand your concern. And you are right. This is a spiritual sucessor of IGA's style of Castlevania, not a spiritual sucessor of Symphony of the Night alone. I don't know if this helps, but a lot of people here are at the same boat as you.(...) 1. A big thing was certainly aesthetic appeal. The GBA games never really hit that for me due to the limitations of the hardware and I figured that was fine. (As a seperate issue, I wasn't ever huge on the Belmont style so HoD and CotM didn't do it for me in most aspects, though I still go back to them from time to time. I like the games, they just aren't my favorite sort of games. Also they're hard and I'm bad at games. ) But in regards to Dawn of Sorrow... there was a lot of samey looking environments. The color pallete loved white and grey, maybe some stone blue mixed it. Snowy area at the start, a completely grey area like Alchemy Lab, all of the warp and save points were white/grey/stone blue, even the garden area employed more greyblue than green like you'd expect. Other colors in the game were still pretty toned down, like pale browns. Not to say Dawn didn't have any visually distinct areas, but they did seem few and far between. The only area I can think of that felt the same way in Symphony was Orlox's chamber, and this was alleviated once reaching its outdoor section. Also it was a pretty small area and most of it was optional, serving for the most part as a pathway to the Colisseum (which is visually one of my favorite areas in the game, but maybe the music is what help assisted that.) I've played a little bit of Portrait of Ruin and so far the environments look much better in my opinion. They do a lot more to scratch the itch for unique environments than Dawn did. Maybe I'd like Portrait more like I do SotN... if only I could do a better job against the bosses so that I could actually experience more of the game ; ; Handheld games always had limitations, that's right. I think most of criticisms towards the other Igavania games is because, as IGA himself confessed sometimes, they had a very limited budget, forcing them to reuse assets from old games and from the game itself he was building on. Dawn of Sorrow still has enemies taken directly from the 1995 Rondo of Blood game, for instance. I'm not trying to "defend" IGA, but it is mostly due to budget. He said, more than once, that Bloodstained has the biggest budget he ever had in any game of his career.2. SotN had a lot of character. Little things like the gargoyle paralysis effect, the room in the chapel where you can speak to ghosts, being able to sit in just about any chair, the interactions with the familiars in which some can talk to you (despite the voice acting), and the way they evolve and learn and improve, especially the Fairy as it got smarter and would even use elemental potions as helpful which would even in a sense give you advice on how to take on certain enemies without just giving you a chart to read... The way your cloak actually changed your appearance as you equipped new ones (something I'm super excited that Bloodstained is taking queues from)... there were a lot of little events like these that just seemed to give the game a lot of charm compared to the others. It's like... no matter how many times I played the game, there might still be some neat little egg to unravel. Which leads me to my biggest point: 3. Unraveling things! So from what I understand, in Classicvanias, the only thing really stopping you from your goal is your own skill and execution. You had all of the tools necessary from the start to complete the level, and while having knowledge of a few things like where the wall chickens were or where certain subitems were could help, none of it was going to matter if you didn't have the skill to back it up. Which is great for some, but it does leave only one way to go about the game: Get good. Put your skill and execution to the test, learn and improve, and win. And people love that, especially seemingly these days. But that's not for everybody— personally I'm all for the idea to a point until the frustration and punishment becomes unbearing and the game just isn't fun anymore. It stops feeling like it's worth my time, I put it down, and I move onto something else... never looking back. I think you are missing out a bit here. Classicvanias was like that, since they are really old games, but not the new ones. Every single Igavania is focused on unraveling things and exploration. IGA even defined, in a recent interview, the three main elements of what the genre "Igavania" must have: responsible controls, exploration and looting stuff. IGA even said that most of his games are easier than what people expect, exactly to give all kinds of players, the chance to beat his games. Order of Ecclesia was an exception, because players specifically wanted a harder game.Okay, so what does that have to do with my point? Well... I feel like the way SotN handled its difficulty was ingenious. (...) Your whole comment about Symphony of the Night difficult makes sense, in a way, but SOTN had some tools that were abandoned through other Igavania games, such as: a) Experience degradation: the same enemy starts giving less and less exp as you level up, unlike 99% of games with RPG alements. Experience degradation was abandoned after Harmony of Dissonance. b) high item cap: the 99 item cap was abandoned after Harmony of Dissonance too. c) unbalanced familiars: IGA confessed that they created the familiars without balancing them to the whole game, at Symphony of the Night. That means that all enemies of Symphony of the Night were created without the consideration of Alucard's familiars. They are "extras" that, by mistake, makes the game easier. All other Igavanias with familiars balance them out. Why those things were abandoned? Because, as far as i know and as far as IGA explained in past interviews, he wanted / needed to evolve his formula. What we now call as "Igavania", a name coined by IGA's team, is the result of a lot of experimentation over several games during more than a decade, evolving and evolving through the years. I'm not saying you are wrong at your criticism, i'm just poing out that even the retro-styled formula of Igavania had to evolve. And maybe not everyone liked that.And this is the case of my point: There are three ways to beat SotN: Skill, Exploration, and Patience. You could run through the game without grinding and using easy to find gear if you're good at not getting hit. That's Skill. You could grind for levels or maybe a rare weapon like the Crissaegrim, spending your hours getting powerful so that you can face the oncoming obstacles with ease. That's Patience. I don't see the appeal of it very much, but others like that, and that's okay. Or, you can keep a close eye out, look for breakable walls and hidden items, maybe secret special abilities that your weapons ( or dare I say, Shields) can do, and use that to power you up in place of grinding. The game rewarded your skill, your exploration, and your patience, and that reward was sufficient so long as you were adept at one of these three things. I FRICKING LOVE THAT. So back to Dawn of Sorrow. I really wanted to like Dawn of Sorrow. But the Exploration felt... lacking. And sadly, this feels the same way for what I've played of every other Igavania to date. Not nearly as many secrets, not as rewarding of secrets, and in some unfortunate cases, not even as well designed secrets. There were walls that I'd regularly wonder "How was I supposed to find this without a random check or accidentally hitting it while goofing off?" Almost every secret in SotN, I can see in some way the player is supposed to be able to figure it out. That's not the case in many of the other Igavanias for many of the secrets I could find. And you know what Dawn of Sorrow did instead? It actually strengthened its focus on the "Patience" side, locking behind the game's powerful gear behind grinding for souls over and over and over and over and over and over to upgrade the ones you have. You don't get to find and discover the interesting weapons, you have to spend hours grinding the same enemies for them. I'd argue it's even worse than grinding Schmoo for the Crissaegrim, cause at least you only need it to drop once, then you never have to look at a Schmoo again . The Final Guard needs its soul for practically all of the major weapons. I will never forget re-entering the same room to kill Final Guards to get the best weapons. And that's for all of the wrong reasons. This is a bit harder, because it is mostly a matter of opinion. At past IGA interviews, he said that when the team created Aria of Sorrow, the game with the Soul Dominance system, the team loved so much, and the fans liked the system so much, that they decided to reuse it on Dawn of Sorrow and create something similar at Portrait of Ruin (where most magic and skills comes from enemies) and Order of Ecclesia with the Glyph system. IGA confessed at some past interviews that he personally believes the whole idea of "picking up powers from enemies to use against them" was one of the best things his team ever made for the Igavania formula, because it gives a huge variety to ablities. I think most fans agree to that, but i understand your opinion.OK, so what does this all have to do with Bloodstained? Well... my biggest worry was that I backed a game for the elements I loved in SotN, and that Bloodstained would likely be as faithful to these elements as the other Igavanias are. So while in my mind at the time, I backed the spiritual successor to my favorite game of all time, it began to dawn on me that I more likely dropped $125 on the spiritual successor to those "similar games that were pretty neat and fun I guess but not my favorite and I'd probably never spend full price on them." In the back of my chest is this sincere hope that this game will provide what I want as well as those who enjoy the other vanias as much if not more than SotN. But my hopes are kind of being poked and prodded here. -Seeing a lot of whites and greys and washed out browns in everything we've seen in Bloodstained. It's got me pretty worried. The environments haven't interested me. I haven't seen anything that makes me want to explore it like I did SotN. It just feels like a setpiece for the combat. -Bloodstained likely isn't going to use Shard grinding to upgrade your weapons... but a crafting system of some sort is confirmed. This has the risk of being as bad if not worse than Dawn soul farming. -The demo... It was great for relieving concerns with character (Decent equipment slots, appearance changes are huge, and what's this? A familiar slot?! Yes!) But it really disappointed me in regards to exploration. For those of you who have played the demo and found the breakable wall in it (that wasn't through cannonfire). Did you find it because something in the game's design hinted to its possible secret? Or did you find it because you knew Castlevania had breakable walls so you were checking all or most of the walls for one just in case, and then happened to find it? Cause I'm willing to bet on the latter. There was nothing particularly distinctive about that wall. The sad thing is, if I remember correctly, there was another wall that did look conspicuous, had some stairs leading up to it or something, and it was nothing. That would have been far better design for a secret wall! You could argue that no conspicuous elements make for better hidden secrets, but I'd argue back that going through the castle attacking every wall you find for the hope that there could be something there isn't fun, and it's better for there to be some level of design to hint me into checking a wall out so that I don't have to do something so monotonous. Because that just drains the explorative wonder right out of me when I start having to search for these things systematically. I don't feel cunning and observant. Just patient. That's the other thing, with the leveling and grinding and stuff, remember? So all in all, I love SotN because it makes me want to explore. I love finding its secrets. I love powering through the castle with the secrets I've found. And the art and music is amazing and makes me want to see what's next. What other areas are out there. What other crazy enemy designs are there. I'm not in it for the skill based challenge. Lord knows I'm not in it for the grinding. I'm in it for the exploration. That's what makes SotN special to me. That's what hasn't hit as well for me for the other Igavanias. And that's what I find is really important for Bloodstained to hit the mark on for me— and what I'm especially concerned it won't do. TL;DR: Bloodstained looks like a fun action game I suppose, but SotN appealed to me as an adventure to explore.
Well, about Bloodstained visuals, that is a fair criticism even some of the most diehard fans of IGA and Igavanias are making, i have nothing much to comment here. About your conflict of backing the game, wanting a Symphony of the Night sucessor and not a Igavania sucessor as a whole, i wanted to say something. Symphony of the Night was IGA's most sucessful game, as i already said. That's why Bloodstained has a lot of elements from SOTN. From my perspective, Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night tries to grab the best of many Igavania games, with a focus on Symphony of the Night, since that one was the most famous on. You have Miriam movement, tons of weapons and equipment, command skills (like Alucard dark magic, this was confirmed already) are all straight from Symphony of the Night. You have the Shard system, inspired in Soul Dominance from Aria/Dawn of Sorrow. You have forging, like Curse of Darkness, among other things. What i'm trying to do here, is try to easen up your heart. I agree to your concerns over graphics, visuals and such, because that is a fair criticism. I think the new e3 Demo had cracked walls to show off what can be broken, by the way. Also, they said that Shards CAN be upgraded by collecting more of the same time, but IGA also said that the overall drop rate of the game will be higher than his other games. Now, your whole feel that you misunderstood and backed something that may not be what you really wanted, i think you could reconsider that. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is not Symphony of the Night and it will not be. But it is as close as it could get without being a carbon copy. It has elements for you and elements for the newer players. Try to see it at this light and i think you will enjoy it =) Welcome to this crazy convo, by the way.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2017 3:04:16 GMT -6
Alright, there's a lot to unravel here, it being an unraveling of an unraveling of a way-too-long post of mine. So I'm going to snip a lot for brevity's sake. Here goes. I suppose I'll be the non-colored bits. Hi there lovelydumpling ! I want to comment your huge and well-detailed comment, because i think you are right at some points and missing out some others. To make this easier, i'm going to delete part of your comment, to focus on the main aspects of it, and i will comment inside your quote, with a different color. Here goes: (...) ________________________________I think there are quite a lot of people here at the same situation. Symphony of the Night was IGA's most sucessfull game of all time, although he wasn't even the producer of it (he helped create the whole game and system, anyways). As far as i could see at the forums and at many other places, a lot of backers and non-backers supporting this game are Symphony of the Night fans and not necessarily Castlevania fans. So, i understand your concern. And you are right. This is a spiritual sucessor of IGA's style of Castlevania, not a spiritual sucessor of Symphony of the Night alone. I don't know if this helps, but a lot of people here are at the same boat as you.___________________________________ Hmm, that's a solid point. I never really thought about that before. Probably cause I joined a lot of Castlevania groups with fans from all over the series (featuring a lot of grumps that scream to high heaven that "SotN is overrated!") so I forget things like that when regarding the Bloodstained community. ___________________________________ Handheld games always had limitations, that's right. I think most of criticisms towards the other Igavania games is because, as IGA himself confessed sometimes, they had a very limited budget, forcing them to reuse assets from old games and from the game itself he was building on. Dawn of Sorrow still has enemies taken directly from the 1995 Rondo of Blood game, for instance. I'm not trying to "defend" IGA, but it is mostly due to budget. He said, more than once, that Bloodstained has the biggest budget he ever had in any game of his career.___________________________________ Of course there are going to be limitations in handhelds, but I don't think the DS was primitive enough to have a limited color palette. Nor does that seem to be a budgetary constraint. It seems like an artistic choice. Either way, whether it was by choice or from limitations, I was observing why I didn't like these games as much as SotN to make the comparison clearer when talking about Bloodstained, which I feared may have the same issues despite its budget from what has been shown so far. ___________________________________ I think you are missing out a bit here. Classicvanias was like that, since they are really old games, but not the new ones. Every single Igavania is focused on unraveling things and exploration. IGA even defined, in a recent interview, the three main elements of what the genre "Igavania" must have: responsible controls, exploration and looting stuff. IGA even said that most of his games are easier than what people expect, exactly to give all kinds of players, the chance to beat his games. Order of Ecclesia was an exception, because players specifically wanted a harder game.___________________________________ Yes, I'm aware Igavanias aren't like Classicvanias. I was explaining what Castlevania was like before SotN and how SotN changed it, and that's what I liked so much about SotN. Then I later contrasted with Dawn of Sorrow and other Igavanias I've played by noting that while it did 2/3rds right (the Skill and Patience aspects), that I never felt properly rewarded for Exploration, which is unfortunate since that was the main driving force for me when playing SotN. I mean yeah, it has the main progression based on exploration (go here to get this item to unlock another part of the game somewhere else), but I'm referring to a mechanical character improvement standpoint, and regarding secret areas that aren't critical to game progression. Everyone's expected to figure out how to get from Point A to Point B to Point C. That's a lot less special. Not everyone's going to find the secrets it takes to get through these points with hidden loot that makes up for a lack of skill/grinding. Finding these things is what triggers the dopamine in Explorer-type players. We want to find something cool that was well worth our observational skills that helps us where our reflexive skills and patience for the mundane fails us. (Unrelated note: I've been scared of touching Order of Ecclesia. Circle of the Moon was already pretty darn hard for me, and I never could beat HoD or PoR. If OoE is even harder than all of those, I'd probably be S.O.L. there. Shame too, I really like Shanoa as a character and the environments (from what I've seen) look really good in that game.) ___________________________________ Your whole comment about Symphony of the Night difficult makes sense, in a way, but SOTN had some tools that were abandoned through other Igavania games, such as: a) Experience degradation: the same enemy starts giving less and less exp as you level up, unlike 99% of games with RPG alements. Experience degradation was abandoned after Harmony of Dissonance. b) high item cap: the 99 item cap was abandoned after Harmony of Dissonance too. c) unbalanced familiars: IGA confessed that they created the familiars without balancing them to the whole game, at Symphony of the Night. That means that all enemies of Symphony of the Night were created without the consideration of Alucard's familiars. They are "extras" that, by mistake, makes the game easier. All other Igavanias with familiars balance them out. Why those things were abandoned? Because, as far as i know and as far as IGA explained in past interviews, he wanted / needed to evolve his formula. What we now call as "Igavania", a name coined by IGA's team, is the result of a lot of experimentation over several games during more than a decade, evolving and evolving through the years. I'm not saying you are wrong at your criticism, i'm just poing out that even the retro-styled formula of Igavania had to evolve. And maybe not everyone liked that.
___________________________________ I was unaware of the first change. As for the last one, I understand wanting to balance the familiars, but at the same time they made them awfully less interesting. Familiars in Aria/Dawn were limited time spells, draining your magic upon usage, taking up one of your valuable soul slots, and honestly never felt useful enough to be worthwhile. And of course all personality was straight up drained from them. Feels like they went too far in the other direction. The high item cap change made sense in the case of restoratives and the like but is kind of a shame in that it restricts the ability to make item-weapons, like SotN's Javelins, throwing stars, pentagrams, etc. That was another really cool thing, along with Shields, that I've had to accept isn't ever coming back. They kinda experimented with it with subitems in Portrait if I remember correctly but it's not quite the same as collecting an arsenal of weaponry and unleashing it on a tough boss. SotN just had so many ways to play. But that's more nitpicky than anything, it's not a feature that I'm dead set on having to return. All that aside, I'm not sure what these changes have to do with the games being less explorative. They seem relatively okay to me. EDIT: After re-reading what segment you were responding to, now I think I understand why you were discussing this. Sort of pointing out other matters in which SotN's difficulty was imperfect— how it could be more easy and/or more difficult due to flawed design elements as opposed to the factors I was referring to. That's certainly understandable, and I can agree with balancing these particular aspects of the game. Still though— they really need to do more to reward exploration than they had been in the handheld titles. (In my opinion.) ___________________________________ This is a bit harder, because it is mostly a matter of opinion. At past IGA interviews, he said that when the team created Aria of Sorrow, the game with the Soul Dominance system, the team loved so much, and the fans liked the system so much, that they decided to reuse it on Dawn of Sorrow and create something similar at Portrait of Ruin (where most magic and skills comes from enemies) and Order of Ecclesia with the Glyph system. IGA confessed at some past interviews that he personally believes the whole idea of "picking up powers from enemies to use against them" was one of the best things his team ever made for the Igavania formula, because it gives a huge variety to ablities. I think most fans agree to that, but i understand your opinion.___________________________________ Oh, of course it's a matter of opinion. I didn't mean to imply my essay up there was objective, just about what it all meant to me personally. Some might agree with my opinions, and other may not. A big matter of it all was that I backed it before ever considering what it really was I was backing, what I really loved about SotN, and whether these things were going to be in line with each other. I do absolutely love the Soul system in Sorrow at its core concept. As well as the crystal system. I love the variety of abilities it gives and I love that it's based on using the powers of enemies you've defeated. As much as I loved the Subweapons in SotN and other Vanias, I have to admit that the Soul system was so much more interesting. I do agree that it was one of the best things his team added to the franchise. My issue with it isn't in the core concept, but in what it's made to do. The core concept is fantastic, but turning it into a grindfest to artificially lengthen the game's playtime is a huge downside to me. I don't mind collecting the souls by choice— I do mind being forced to grind souls to get weapons, or having to grind the same soul nine times to truly get the full power of an ability. It's pretty overdone. Grinding is apparently fun for some people— the IGN interviewer straight up said he liked to do it and asked if he could kill the same monster 100 times for special items. But grinding is really not all that fun for me. A concept that would be more bearable to me is instead of grinding for the same item 9 times, you grind for the item once, and then you grind for a rarer item to maybe upgrade it to its full potential. Doing something dozens of times over or more to only get 1/9th of the way towards my goal is straight up exhausting. For that, I never fully powered a soul in Sorrow. I think the highest I got was maybe 3 or 4, and that was for some common soul I just happened to pick up that many times. This means I never got to play with the full power of any skill in the entire game. I feel like they asked way too much a price to pay to do so. ___________________________________
Well, about Bloodstained visuals, that is a fair criticism even some of the most diehard fans of IGA and Igavanias are making, i have nothing much to comment here. About your conflict of backing the game, wanting a Symphony of the Night sucessor and not a Igavania sucessor as a whole, i wanted to say something. Symphony of the Night was IGA's most sucessful game, as i already said. That's why Bloodstained has a lot of elements from SOTN. From my perspective, Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night tries to grab the best of many Igavania games, with a focus on Symphony of the Night, since that one was the most famous on. You have Miriam movement, tons of weapons and equipment, command skills (like Alucard dark magic, this was confirmed already) are all straight from Symphony of the Night. You have the Shard system, inspired in Soul Dominance from Aria/Dawn of Sorrow. You have forging, like Curse of Darkness, among other things. What i'm trying to do here, is try to easen up your heart. I agree to your concerns over graphics, visuals and such, because that is a fair criticism. I think the new e3 Demo had cracked walls to show off what can be broken, by the way. Also, they said that Shards CAN be upgraded by collecting more of the same time, but IGA also said that the overall drop rate of the game will be higher than his other games. Now, your whole feel that you misunderstood and backed something that may not be what you really wanted, i think you could reconsider that. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is not Symphony of the Night and it will not be. But it is as close as it could get without being a carbon copy. It has elements for you and elements for the newer players. Try to see it at this light and i think you will enjoy it =) Welcome to this crazy convo, by the way. ___________________________________
It is a huge relief to hear that they're easing up on the drop rate. That might not fully fix the issue but anything to alleviate it is good to hear. As for wall cracks, it cracks when you hit it and requires three hits (something I'm GLAD that they're bringing back from SotN. Hitting the wall and it immediately breaking in the later games felt really underwhelming for some reason. This isn't something I have fully analyzed why, though.) but I afaik I still don't think there are any good hints before hitting it. I may be wrong though, I haven't had a good look at that scene yet. (I mostly tried to avoid footage of it since I figured we backers were going to get it soon, so I wanted to hold out a bit so that it'd be fresh when I got my hands on it. From what Polygon says Iga has told them, we're supposedly getting the Alpha build in August.)
I'd like to ease my worries, but unfortunately nothing has still really addressed my issues in a way that makes me feel comfortable. I'm sure the movement and combat will feel like SotN, that's fine. The other Vanias were like that too. But the visuals and the exploration is what makes SotN my favorite game of all time. It's what made me so eager to spend $125 on a game— I've never spent that much on a game in my life. So my personal disappointment is in realizing that I may very well not see that. I don't know for sure until the game releases of course. And I'll still enjoy the game on some level regardless. It's just probably not going to be anything like what I had in mind when I backed this game. And that's absolutely OK— but it is a bit of a disappointment.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 18, 2017 5:37:09 GMT -6
I'm not going to quote you again lovelydumpling to not turn this into a inception quote fest haha, but yes, i got you. What i can talk about, regarding your concerns, considering all the info that we have at the moment, is this: 1) Remember that this is a work-in-progress. We have to remember that we are comparing finished games (all Igavanias) with a game that, as IGA said, is 30% complete. The stairs leading to nothing at the boat, for instance, they do actually leads to another area. You can see that at one of the new videos. Since it was a demo, they needed to block some areas to make it shorter. You can see that it doesn't have a single savepoint, for instance. In one of the interviews, IGA said that they deliberately put a ton of chests around the Church area of the new E3 2017 Demo, to show off new weapons and animations. The final game will not be like that. I don't know how much you watched of E3 2017 Demo, but they also introduced Shard Candlestics. Pillars that you can pick a shard when you destroy them. IGA said they put that on the Demo just to show them off and not "overload the demo with bosses" to give those shards. He also implied those things will mostly be somewhat secrets. 2) Yes, the drop rate will be higher. If you watch some of the E3 2017 Demo videos, you can easily see that. Most of the enemies of the church, it took two to four kills to get their shards. And the player easily get the same shards again and again without grinding. IGA said more than a year ago, that Bloodstained is too dependant on drops since you forge weapons from material drops and Miriam's powers are based on drops too. Due to that, the normal drop rate the team uses at Igavanias will be higher. 3) About the usage of attacking items, i consider the Shard System a substitute of that. Think about it. On Symphony of the Night, you had Flame Shurikens that you actually needed to equip them at one of the weapon slots, thrown them and they would be over after some uses. If you like the core idea of the Shard System (that is essentially a updated version of Soul Dominance), couldn't you consider them as a substitute for those attacking items of Symphony of the Night? Throwing bones, flames, summon monsters... All that existed, in one for or the other, at the attacking items of Symphony of the Night. I don't know about you, but Fire Cannon Shard (Miriam throws flames) could be considered a updated version of the Flame Shurikens. With the benefits of not taking up a weapon's slot and being limitless. 4) About exploration, i can't say much but i trust that Bloodstained will shine brightly on that. We really don't have enough material to judge how exploration-wise the game will be, by two scenarios that, together, are roughly t20 minutes of a 20h+ gameplay. Just as a quick reminder, one of the stretch goals was "IGA's biggest castle". Symphony of the Night castle had 942 rooms (blocks of the map, not counting the inverted castle, of course). They already confirmed that Bloodstained will have 1600+ rooms. They have A TON of filed to fill up. And i must also remind you of this:
And this:
I really think they covered the visuals nicely and have good plans regarding that.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 18, 2017 5:57:14 GMT -6
SotN is my favorite game of all time. I was a Symphony of the Night fan, not necessarily a Castlevania fan. Same here, same here Anywho, a few months ago I had the opportunity to play Dawn of Sorrow Never have had the chance to play Dawn, I did however enjoy Aria of Sorrow which is my second Castlevania game in my narrow list of Castlevania games I actually have tried and finished. Never had a DS or Wii, and as of such no idea how Portraits and Dawn worked ;(But in regards to Dawn of Sorrow... there was a lot of samey looking environments. Aria of Sorrow had both nice and stiff parts of the game, and they never stood out as much as SotN, I agree on that. The way your cloak actually changed your appearance as you equipped new ones Hope to see similar for Miriam, short and long scarfs, and one you can toggle around with the colors. Even so perhaps with the familiars.So I constantly hear that SotN is "too easy" as one of the game's biggest flaws. To me it were perfect. I manage to actually beat the game and thus making it the best games of all time. It was hard until I explored further, which was part of the test of me being patient. It worked and I could not stop playing. I explored and went back, and looked at that mini-map more and more, and after a while I found new areas. And after a long and annoying wait I could finally come up to that hidden area of Gaibon / Slogra to unveil treasure above the room.
I hope the difficulty are set so everyone can enjoy it, having i too hard will make me drop the controler and do other things in life.
more HP and Heart max UPs I collected them as fast as I saw them. It felt good.There are three ways to beat SotN: Skill, Exploration, and Patience. You could run through the game without grinding and using easy to find gear if you're good at not getting hit. That's Skill. You could grind for levels or maybe a rare weapon like the Crissaegrim, spending your hours getting powerful so that you can face the oncoming obstacles with ease. That's Patience. I don't see the appeal of it very much, but others like that, and that's okay. Or, you can keep a close eye out, look for breakable walls and hidden items, maybe secret special abilities that your weapons ( or dare I say, Shields) can do, and use that to power you up in place of grinding. The game rewarded your skill, your exploration, and your patience, and that reward was sufficient so long as you were adept at one of these three things. I agree on this, since I am bad at gaming, I needed all three of them, which SotN taught me.my biggest worry was that I backed a game for the elements I loved in SotN, and that Bloodstained would likely be as faithful to these elements as the other Igavanias are. I read you, one of those late interviews at E3, Mana translated for IGA that they really wanted to give everyone that feel of SotN back + add in more. I am sorry I do not have the link, but it is here on the forums - if you checked them all these past days. Perhaps she didn't say it exactly like that but that is how I interpreted it.You could argue that no conspicuous elements make for better hidden secrets, but I'd argue back that going through the castle attacking every wall you find for the hope that there could be something there isn't fun The hidden walls might have less or minor tiers of loot, and make those walls a bit more "visable" is something they CAN do pretty easy. The "skin" or "overlay" used on making these walls could just have a few more pixels here and there, making it sticking out for a trained eye. They could fade it a bit even -or- leave it as is, making the loot always a minor bonus, if not a giant bonus right before / after a boss-fight.
SotN made my gut feel like there was perhaps a hidden wall behind a few things, looking at the mini-map and change back to gameplay, I always (in any game) struck the walls to see if that empty square on the map actually had anything behind it. Many times it didn't. I would say that more than a few times I felt let-downed by it, but these were maps that almost had a mirrored feel to it and to have a somewhat balance, it felt natural to struck those walls. Having these longer areas for Miriam, what we have seen so far, are indeed harder to obtain a satisfaction for hidden areas, but they are still a welcome addition to the adventure. Perhaps once we have gotten the layout of the castle in our mind, the secrets will show themselves to us before we even enter the room with the secret wall or passage.
Also, I am getting the highest slacker-tier, so that map will be a thing for me to look at once I felt I have beaten the game. Or as a guide if I am really stuck. Hopefully I am strong enough NOT to look at it
So all in all, I love SotN because it makes me want to explore. Progress, exploration and rewards. Many cool weapons (and more than 1 end-game tier weapon, for the sake of us players being in love with different kind of weapons).TL;DR: Bloodstained looks like a fun action game I suppose, but SotN appealed to me as an adventure to explore. Me in orange. Thanks for the post, enjoyed reading it!
Edit: Wrote this before I saw Pure Miriam joined into the discussions. Awesome guys. This was a blast to read.
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 18, 2017 7:59:59 GMT -6
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 18, 2017 9:02:45 GMT -6
I'm one of the most obnoxiously pro-sotn people on this board and honestly Bloodstained SEEMS to be getting the exploration elements right where to me the handheld games didn't quite nail well.
this is the most pumped I've been for an IGAVANIA game post sotn. It's mainly because they seemed to have really thought out all the essential ingredients. Most of my complaints are nitpicking type things like visual things.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 18, 2017 10:06:41 GMT -6
I'm one of the most obnoxiously pro-sotn people on this board and honestly Bloodstained SEEMS to be getting the exploration elements right where to me the handheld games didn't quite nail well. this is the most pumped I've been for an IGAVANIA game post sotn. It's mainly because they seemed to have really thought out all the essential ingredients. Most of my complaints are nitpicking type things like visual things. Personal experience in SotN gaming, finding the kickstarter project and following Bloodstained progress are all different from one another here. Everyone looks at the game differently, but everyone hopes for the best. I am just happy Bloodstained ever came into reality actually. I know we will not get SotN 2, but if Bloodstained are fun, I have no issue. I can't say much and I got a nice feel once I saw the village again with the new colors and lights, animations and backdrops. It gave me the feel of SotN in spirit, and that is all that matters. I hype myself up too much most of the time, and being burnt before from being hyped by my own means, I try to keep it as "realistic" that I can. Of course exploration will be key here, and I really hope we get an awesome adventure. There is much more than exploration to this game - but it is an important part. The demos have showed us small sections, but I am sure that we haven't seen the really cool stuff yet, exploration, action, puzzles and more.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2017 10:43:20 GMT -6
Wow, thank you for the kind words and support everyone~ 1) Remember that this is a work-in-progress. We have to remember that we are comparing finished games (all Igavanias) with a game that, as IGA said, is 30% complete. The stairs leading to nothing at the boat, for instance, they do actually leads to another area. You can see that at one of the new videos. Since it was a demo, they needed to block some areas to make it shorter. You can see that it doesn't have a single savepoint, for instance. In one of the interviews, IGA said that they deliberately put a ton of chests around the Church area of the new E3 2017 Demo, to show off new weapons and animations. The final game will not be like that. I don't know how much you watched of E3 2017 Demo, but they also introduced Shard Candlestics. Pillars that you can pick a shard when you destroy them. IGA said they put that on the Demo just to show them off and not "overload the demo with bosses" to give those shards. He also implied those things will mostly be somewhat secrets. Oh wow. I didn't even know they made new videos of the boat area. Was that in regards to E3 or was there an Update I totally missed? And that's really cool that they're genuinely looking into more things to work as secrets. That's a huge relief. I knew the game was only 30% complete or so but they also mentioned the underlying systems were done and were hitting a mass production stage. So concerns with the environments and grinding system I felt were set in stone.2) Yes, the drop rate will be higher. If you watch some of the E3 2017 Demo videos, you can easily see that. Most of the enemies of the church, it took two to four kills to get their shards. And the player easily get the same shards again and again without grinding. IGA said more than a year ago, that Bloodstained is too dependant on drops since you forge weapons from material drops and Miriam's powers are based on drops too. Due to that, the normal drop rate the team uses at Igavanias will be higher. Two to four kills to get their shards? I knew the drop rate was going to be higher but that sounds unrealistically high! I mean, no complaints for me if that's where they'll actually go with it but is it possible that the drop rate was that high for the same reason the pillars and chests were around— so people could quickly obtain and play around with the shards in the demo?3) About the usage of attacking items, i consider the Shard System a substitute of that. Think about it. On Symphony of the Night, you had Flame Shurikens that you actually needed to equip them at one of the weapon slots, thrown them and they would be over after some uses. If you like the core idea of the Shard System (that is essentially a updated version of Soul Dominance), couldn't you consider them as a substitute for those attacking items of Symphony of the Night? Throwing bones, flames, summon monsters... All that existed, in one for or the other, at the attacking items of Symphony of the Night. I don't know about you, but Fire Cannon Shard (Miriam throws flames) could be considered a updated version of the Flame Shurikens. With the benefits of not taking up a weapon's slot and being limitless. That's a fair point. I mean, the Fire Cannon (unless changed from the 2016 demo) is nothing like the Flame Shurikens save for fire, but as a core idea I get what you mean. It still feels more like a Subweapon replacement instead of a consumable weapon replacement though. (Since it uses hearts/flowers/MP). Most people prefer it that way, and that makes sense. I was just saying what I liked about consumable weapons was collecting them throughout my journey and unleashing them all at once. You aren't really collecting them with Shards because you can just use one really good Soul that you really like indefinitely. But as I mentioned, this was a super minor nitpick. Not even an issue really, just something different. I just went on a little tangent was all to kinda gush about something I missed in SotN. It's absolutely not one of the aspects that'd really make me disappointed in Bloodstained.4) About exploration, i can't say much but i trust that Bloodstained will shine brightly on that. We really don't have enough material to judge how exploration-wise the game will be, by two scenarios that, together, are roughly t20 minutes of a 20h+ gameplay. Just as a quick reminder, one of the stretch goals was "IGA's biggest castle". Symphony of the Night castle had 942 rooms (blocks of the map, not counting the inverted castle, of course). They already confirmed that Bloodstained will have 1600+ rooms. They have A TON of filed to fill up. And i must also remind you of this:
And this:
I really think they covered the visuals nicely and have good plans regarding that.
That forest garden concept art is fricking beautiful. I hope that gets implemented in some way. I also like the blue windows in the first gameplay screenshot. That screen looks pretty cool. The desaturated yellow/green sky is a total miss for me though. But that's a subjective viewpoint.
These interviews and screenshots and such you two have mentioned definitely have helped me to feel quite a bit better about Bloodstained. Who knows, maybe it really will be at least my second favorite Igavania of all time.
Part of the backer hype was because I was like "1600 rooms?! All these backer features?! This has the chance to be even better than SotN!" But I'm thinking I'm too close to SotN for anything to truly replace it in my heart. But I still hope it at least gets pretty damn close.
Extra Note: While I didn't love it quite to the same level as SotN, a game I played recently that appealed to me more for its Igavania like elements than the other Igavanias was Shantae: Risky's Revenge. Played the Director's Cut on the Wii U. It gave me that thrill for exploration that I really don't get in most games I play anymore. It reminded me of SotN in that regard. Sadly from what I'm told, Shantae only did the Igavania format in that game and kinda dropped it for the rest.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 18, 2017 10:48:09 GMT -6
Wow, thank you for the kind words and support everyone~ Oh wow. I didn't even know they made new videos of the boat area. Was that in regards to E3 or was there an Update I totally missed? And that's really cool that they're genuinely looking into more things to work as secrets. That's a huge relief. I knew the game was only 30% complete or so but they also mentioned the underlying systems were done and were hitting a mass production stage. So concerns with the environments and grinding system I felt were set in stone.Check here: bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/2390/update-development-dico-zangetsu-etcI made some images there too!
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 18, 2017 11:06:18 GMT -6
Do we actually have confirmation that the shard drop will be this frequent in the main game? If not I wouldn't make assumptions off a demo that gives you like 10 weapons within a few minutes and purposely makes the experience easy.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2017 11:48:02 GMT -6
Woah! That actually looks really nice. The boat looks way less desaturated than I remember from the E3 demo. And the village looks a lot nicer too than I last remember it. That's actually pretty good. The environments are looking interesting again~ Wow there was a lot of details that have come out that I somehow totally missed. That's a huge weight off my shoulders. The chandelier can use some movement when you run on it as others have mentioned but to be honest that is a really minor complaint for me, especially compared to what my overall concerns had been.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 18, 2017 12:29:00 GMT -6
lovelydumpling About the boat level being remade, they showed that in other videos. Areas that AREN'T at the E3 2017 Demo. The Boat, a atelier of sorts, a 3d rotating cavern and what is mostly the entrance. About the Shard drop rate, the 2016 Demo has one enemy (Amy) with a 1% shard drop rate. They are mix-matching. Most enemies have a "generally higher" drop rate, i think. About the attacking items, well, it is good that this is just a niptick, but even so, i just wanted to give my personal view to this. I know it is not the same, but at least it could lessen your concerns a bit. About the Fire cannon Shard, it was upgraded visually (it looks way better) and functionality-wise (it is way stronger). They also put it inside a Shard Candlestick, but that is mostly because the Demo doesn't have the boat level, so, they needed to put it there somehow. About everything else, yes. Take a look at Enkeria link. (EDIT: you already looked by the time i posted this). It has some screenshots i take and some other people took if you don't wanna watch the videos. As i said, Bloodstained will not be Symphony of the Night, but i think the dev team is making their best effort to emulate the overall feeling of that game as much as possible, while borrowing elements from other games. Just because i like lists, let me list a few of what i perceived: Symphony of the Night: Miriam's slow pace and floaty movement. Arsenal of weapons and equipment. Command-like skills. Changing Miriam looks (you could change Alucard's cloaks, you can change Miriam's scarf and headgear. The game will also have special clothes to revamp her looks completely). Familiars. Aria of Sorrow / Dawn of Sorrow: Shard System, that emulates Soul Dominance. Guns. Curse of Darkness: Forging equipment. Order of Ecclesia: Miriam, Johannes and Gebel roughly emulates Shanoa, Albus and Barlowe a bit visually (although Alfred is way closer to Barlowe now), although their roles are completely different, plot-wise. The game will have some areas before leading to the main castle, like the boat and the village (Order of Ecclesia has several non-connected stages before reaching to the Castle). Everything else: The three main aspects of any Igavania game, as said by IGA himself: responsible controls, exploration and looting. EDIT 2: Check out some other pictures.
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 18, 2017 12:45:47 GMT -6
Do we actually have confirmation that the shard drop will be this frequent in the main game? If not I wouldn't make assumptions off a demo that gives you like 10 weapons within a few minutes and purposely makes the experience easy. If we have, I need the source too. When speaking of shard drops and difficulty in general, I wish for us to actually have the option to choose how hard we want the game to be, something you choose before you enter the game, and with that they have changed the settings somewhat. Or another thing was to let us toggle around with it ourselves to our liking, ofc with limitations.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 18, 2017 12:56:29 GMT -6
lovelydumpling About the boat level being remade, they showed that in other videos. Areas that AREN'T at the E3 2017 Demo. The Boat, a atelier of sorts, a 3d rotating cavern and what is mostly the entrance. About the Shard drop rate, the 2016 Demo has one enemy (Amy) with a 1% shard drop rate. They are mix-matching. Most enemies have a "generally higher" drop rate, i think. About the attacking items, well, it is good that this is just a niptick, but even so, i just wanted to give my personal view to this. I know it is not the same, but at least it could lessen your concerns a bit. About the Fire cannon Shard, it was upgraded visually (it looks way better) and functionality-wise (it is way stronger). They also put it inside a Shard Candlestick, but that is mostly because the Demo doesn't have the boat level, so, they needed to put it there somehow. About everything else, yes. Take a look at Enkeria link. (EDIT: you already looked by the time i posted this). It has some screenshots i take and some other people took if you don't wanna watch the videos. As i said, Bloodstained will not be Symphony of the Night, but i think the dev team is making their best effort to emulate the overall feeling of that game as much as possible, while borrowing elements from other games. Just because i like lists, let me list a few of what i perceived: Symphony of the Night: Miriam's slow pace and floaty movement. Arsenal of weapons and equipment. Command-like skills. Changing Miriam looks (you could change Alucard's cloaks, you can change Miriam's scarf and headgear. The game will also have special clothes to revamp her looks completely). Familiars. Aria of Sorrow / Dawn of Sorrow: Shard System, that emulates Soul Dominance. Guns. Curse of Darkness: Forging equipment. Order of Ecclesia: Miriam, Johannes and Gebel roughly emulates Shanoa, Albus and Barlowe a bit visually (although Alfred is way closer to Barlowe now), although their roles are completely different, plot-wise. The game will have some areas before leading to the main castle, like the boat and the village (Order of Ecclesia has several non-connected stages before reaching to the Castle). Everything else: The three main aspects of any Igavania game, as said by IGA himself: responsible controls, exploration and looting. EDIT 2: Check out some other pictures. Well said on all of that although I'd say pretty much all of iga's games were slow and a bit floaty, it wasn't just a SOTN thing. Order's run animation made it feel incredibly slower than even sotn.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 18, 2017 13:34:04 GMT -6
Do we actually have confirmation that the shard drop will be this frequent in the main game? If not I wouldn't make assumptions off a demo that gives you like 10 weapons within a few minutes and purposely makes the experience easy. If we have, I need the source too. When speaking of shard drops and difficulty in general, I wish for us to actually have the option to choose how hard we want the game to be, something you choose before you enter the game, and with that they have changed the settings somewhat. Or another thing was to let us toggle around with it ourselves to our liking, ofc with limitations. Here, this interview from 2015/16. That may had changed of course. Some information from that interview changed already. I think they most probably give up on the whole "drop itens from specific body parts" for instance. But that is the font i had for this information: shmuplations.com/bloodstained/The exact question and answer: —Will it be difficult to progress through the game if you don’t keep getting new drops and crafting new items?
Igarashi: Key magic items will be found just by exploring, or when you kill certain set bosses or enemies, so you won’t miss anything vital. You will need to acquire the materials to improve your character and give them an advantage, though. I want Bloodstained to have that collecting component to it, and the drop rate will be set high. An enemy might drop something, but it doesn’t have the subeffect you want.. I hope players enjoy that hunt.
Well said on all of that although I'd say pretty much all of iga's games were slow and a bit floaty, it wasn't just a SOTN thing. Order's run animation made it feel incredibly slower than even sotn. Yes i know. I just said that because Symphony of the Night was the first with that gameplay style, and the others followed it.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2017 13:55:13 GMT -6
Unrelated to the issues I was discussing earlier, but still on the subject of analysis and critique, I started reading this and it has been an interesting read. Regarding why Bloodstained looks sluggish to a lot of people despite movement speed being more or less the same as in previous games. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/161855768904/hi-not-sure-if-you-are-interested-inI always did think something looked off with Miriam's animations but I couldn't ever put my finger on what so I just kinda shrugged it off and decided I'd get used to it. EDIT: I semi agree with the second half about Miriam's pose, after looking it over again. I think it fits pretty well when unarmed/using combat shoes, but when using other weapons, the stance makes very little sense.
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Post by kronfarfar on Jun 18, 2017 14:43:51 GMT -6
Unrelated to the issues I was discussing earlier, but still on the subject of analysis and critique, I started reading this and it has been an interesting read. Regarding why Bloodstained looks sluggish to a lot of people despite movement speed being more or less the same as in previous games. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/161855768904/hi-not-sure-if-you-are-interested-inI always did think something looked off with Miriam's animations but I couldn't ever put my finger on what so I just kinda shrugged it off and decided I'd get used to it. EDIT: I semi agree with the second half about Miriam's pose, after looking it over again. I think it fits pretty well when unarmed/using combat shoes, but when using other weapons, the stance makes very little sense. YES! I really think that the answers in the link could be the solution here. Especially the stance....I wan't Miriam to be cool. The sword stance that appears for a few frames after she attacks is much better than the idle balancing on one foot stance.
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Post by estebant on Jun 18, 2017 14:51:25 GMT -6
Unrelated to the issues I was discussing earlier, but still on the subject of analysis and critique, I started reading this and it has been an interesting read. Regarding why Bloodstained looks sluggish to a lot of people despite movement speed being more or less the same as in previous games. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/161855768904/hi-not-sure-if-you-are-interested-inI always did think something looked off with Miriam's animations but I couldn't ever put my finger on what so I just kinda shrugged it off and decided I'd get used to it. EDIT: I semi agree with the second half about Miriam's pose, after looking it over again. I think it fits pretty well when unarmed/using combat shoes, but when using other weapons, the stance makes very little sense. The sword comparison was terrible. The Alucard Sword is late game so it makes sense that it would be faster. The extra seconds in the air is something I would believe but sadly he provided no proof that Alucard didn't have them as well.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Jun 18, 2017 15:19:11 GMT -6
Unrelated to the issues I was discussing earlier, but still on the subject of analysis and critique, I started reading this and it has been an interesting read. Regarding why Bloodstained looks sluggish to a lot of people despite movement speed being more or less the same as in previous games. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/161855768904/hi-not-sure-if-you-are-interested-inI always did think something looked off with Miriam's animations but I couldn't ever put my finger on what so I just kinda shrugged it off and decided I'd get used to it. EDIT: I semi agree with the second half about Miriam's pose, after looking it over again. I think it fits pretty well when unarmed/using combat shoes, but when using other weapons, the stance makes very little sense. The sword comparison was terrible. The Alucard Sword is late game so it makes sense that it would be faster. The extra seconds in the air is something I would believe but sadly he provided no proof that Alucard didn't have them as well. Even the short sword you get from the first enemy in the game after getting your stuff taken away has a lot less frames than Miriam's attacks. (Notably while also using a short sword.) As for the extra frames in the air regarding Alucard, I can at least say with experience that while he does have a slow decent, he doesn't hang horizontally in the air as long as Miriam does. Sure, he didn't provide a gif of it, but honestly nothing else stated in the article suggested he'd just make things up. Even if he was wrong about the sword, that'd be ill-informed at best, nothing to imply malicious fabrication like straight up lying about Alucard's frames would be. Edit: Just captured some game footage. Will be back shortly to prove it.
Edit 2: He's right. I put it in Camtasia 9 and studied it frame by frame. Even at Alucard's full jump (holding X the entire time), he only hangs in the air for two frames at the apex of his jump before beginning to descend again.
As for his double jump:
Also two frames.
Edit 3: Darn it, I should have taken the time to do the same with the short sword. Setting up my capture card for PS3 is a huge pain in the butt so I'm not going to do that right now. I might do it later if you still don't take my word for it.
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