Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 2, 2016 3:08:43 GMT -6
One of the stretch goals from kickstarter was this. "Iga's biggest Castle." Basically, the dev team promised that Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night will be the biggest game of Iga's career. The biggest game IGA ever did was Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. That game had 942 rooms at it's castle (each room is a block of the map), not couting the inverted one. Later, it was confirmed that Bloodstained will have more than 1600 rooms. This led to some mixed opinions, with people saying that the game will be "smaller" than SOTN, because if you put the inverted castle together, it goes over 1800 rooms. But, if you see the Kickstarter's faq, it goes like this: Will there be an inverted castle?
You’d really want us to spoil it for you? Even though Lord IGA knows the idea of an inverted castle stretch goal would bring in money, he’d rather keep that one as a question mark for now to value creative integrity, first.
So, i want to discuss two things: 1) You will consider Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night smaller than Symphony of the Night if the whole game end up having 1600 rooms, since if you count the inverted castle of Symphony of the Night, that game has more than 1800? Thus, that would mean the Dev team didn't keep the promise of "Iga's Biggest Castle" Stretch goal?2) Do you want Bloostained: Ritual of the Night to have a inverted castle, a second castle or something like that?That's all folks! |
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Post by Ghostpepper on Jul 2, 2016 3:46:25 GMT -6
1. For this in a technicality would be iga's single biggest castle I'm fine with 1600 rooms. It never stated biggest game specifically but I guess in an igavania that's kinda splitting hairs.
2. In the case of an inverted castle I personally would love it but I want an iga game first and foremost. If the castle fits it fits. I would only take issue if it were two 800 room castles.
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Post by m0nkf15h on Jul 2, 2016 4:08:14 GMT -6
I would rather have an intricately designed 1600 room castle done to IGA's usual high standard with all the interesting maze like layout that were used to. As long as this is beautifully realised this is good enough for me - i would not really care for an inverted castle as long as the real castle is well-crafted. I wouldnt want the dev's to split their attention too much. (they already have a LOT to do if they are to keep all the promised stretch goals - which i would rather they do than burn themselves out over this)
If you want more rooms you can go play "rogue-like mode".
With regards to the stretch goal promise being broken/untrue id say this is a false claim becuase SoTN's castle didnt have over 1800 rooms, it had a castle with over 900 rooms and then a very similar castle with over 900 rooms in a similar layout - largely you're playing the same rooms twice, thats not the same as having one sprawling castle with varied rooms over one large area.
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Yän
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Post by Yän on Jul 2, 2016 4:56:25 GMT -6
I don't think that they could even pull of an inverted castle in this day and age as they did in back in the 90s. First of all due to the internet, it wouldn't stay secret for even a week after release, second even if you found it out by yourself - would it really surprise you after it had already been done in SotN? I know I wouldn't be surprised. It was a fantastic design decision back then but it's something that only works once.
Also, all the inverted castle was was the same rooms with palette swaps, new items and new enemies and bosses. No actual new castle or environment design. I'd much prefer more uniquely designed areas of the castle over little changes to already existing designs.
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Post by kronfarfar on Jul 2, 2016 5:16:50 GMT -6
I'm all for 1600+ rooms in ONE castle.
But the important thing here is that we need a secret optional area just like the inverted castle was.
Let's say the "bad" ending has 1100 rooms and for the "good" ending you have to enter a secret smaller castle/area with about 5-600 rooms.
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Post by EbonAnimus on Jul 2, 2016 5:58:19 GMT -6
I really hope for some kind of inverted castle because it has to be the biggest castle ever!^^
A bloodstained castle behind the mirror is the first thing i have on my mind while thinking about this question;)
IGA´s biggest castle ever made shouldn´t be smaller than symphony of the night...
I´m dreaming for Iga´s surprising us with 1600 rooms x2, that would be glorious;)
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 2, 2016 7:15:15 GMT -6
I wanted to flow the discussion, and that's good. I didn't want to give out my opinion before other people saying, but what i think is this: 1600+ rooms on a single Castle, for me, can be considered that stretch goal as cleared. The inverted castle was a huge pallete swap. And yes, i don't want a inverted castle. If they do it, i will like it, but it is no surprise anymore. I want a second castle, or place, or anything of the sort. Now, i want to play around something. Look at this  I dare to ask you all, what do you think that little castle-something at the right side is... |
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Rixuel
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Post by Rixuel on Jul 2, 2016 10:08:33 GMT -6
castle on the right side is probably a big underground castle  castle on the middle is the core castle on the left might be the beginning of the stage. compare to the castle in castlevania, bloodstained castlevania is on water. dracula's castle is mostly on a cliff. on the bloodstained pic, i think i see bats so there will be bats lol |
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Post by m0nkf15h on Jul 2, 2016 10:56:07 GMT -6
Look at this I dare to ask you all, what do you think that little castle-something at the right side is... Well the structure is considerably more in the foreground compared to the main castle and it has an arched structure visible on its right side, this to me would strongly suggest that it is the remains of a bridge; the central "spire" could easily be a gatehouse for the aforementioned bridge. So it would have either served as a way to access the castle in the past or as a way to access whatever building the castle is now in place of (from what i remember of the story from the kickstarter the castle was supposed to have sprung up literally overnight). The key question here i think is was the water/ocean here before the castle was? if the answer is yes then the structure is almost certainly part of ruined bridge but if the answer is no then perhaps its the visible part of whatever was there before the castle arrived, but what kind of structure has supportive arches at roof height - Alchemist's Lab maybe? |
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Post by Kitti_W on Jul 2, 2016 11:21:45 GMT -6
I wanted to flow the discussion, and that's good. I didn't want to give out my opinion before other people saying, but what i think is this: 1600+ rooms on a single Castle, for me, can be considered that stretch goal as cleared. The inverted castle was a huge pallete swap. And yes, i don't want a inverted castle. If they do it, i will like it, but it is no surprise anymore. I want a second castle, or place, or anything of the sort. Now, i want to play around something. Look at this I dare to ask you all, what do you think that little castle-something at the right side is... - That little castle -something at the right side is the 1,600 rooms castle in the stretch goal. - The one in the middle is a 9,800 rooms castle they planned to surprise us with. Bloodstained : Ritual of the night ends when you beat this castle. - The one you can see on the left, behind the fog is only the "small upper part" of the clock tower of the real castle. The middle/lower part of the castle is under water. Miriam got kidnapped in the ending of Ritual of the Night and taken to this castle. You will play as Gebel to go rescue Miriam in this 54,000 rooms under-water castle in Bloodstained 2: Terror from the Deep. |
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 2, 2016 11:48:56 GMT -6
(...) Well the structure is considerably more in the foreground compared to the main castle and it has an arched structure visible on its right side, this to me would strongly suggest that it is the remains of a bridge; the central "spire" could easily be a gatehouse for the aforementioned bridge. So it would have either served as a way to access the castle in the past or as a way to access whatever building the castle is now in place of (from what i remember of the story from the kickstarter the castle was supposed to have sprung up literally overnight). The key question here i think is was the water/ocean here before the castle was? if the answer is yes then the structure is almost certainly part of ruined bridge but if the answer is no then perhaps its the visible part of whatever was there before the castle arrived, but what kind of structure has supportive arches at roof height - Alchemist's Lab maybe? At first, i thought that the castle picture was just a placeholder art, since they where still working at the game when that was done. But they are using that same picture as the demo's title, so, this GOT to be something, right? And, yes. From what we know so far, if i'm not wrong, Gebel summoned the castle from hell itself, on top of what was the Alchemist Guild, after slaughtering them all. So, the Castle's foundation is the Alchemist Guild, that probably was on a island at the ocean. That also make me think that this justifies some of the magical itens we would find in the game. I hope we got to see some remains of the Alchemist Guild too (or maybe, a realm where the Alchemist Guild still exists). |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 2, 2016 12:03:39 GMT -6
It's been heavily implied they're considering an inverted Castle or something like it. Now, I'm REALLY split on the issue. I don't want it to be a giant rip of SOTN but at the same time I thought the inverted Castle was such a genius idea that extended the play and really made the same castle feel unique in-design because of the different enemy types and movement through the castle changing.
I can't lie and say I don't want that again, I kinda do. While having a completely different location would be cool as a secret, I think part of the fun of the inverted castle was you still had the expertly designed castle being used, but it was switched up in a big way.
If the game is 1600 rooms and there's an inverted castle this game will be absolutely massive.
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Post by Viftech on Jul 2, 2016 12:13:04 GMT -6
I don't think we know if areas like the ship is considered part of the castle, right? So there may be areas that are not counted towards it. Because if the ship is considered with the castle, it is considered around 4.5% of the castle. This is with the rooms shown on the map, this does not take in consideration of the rooms that aren't show on the map in some way. We can probably consider it around 5% with the inaccessible hidden rooms we can't get access to in the demo. So is there anything that clarifies what exactly counts as the castle? I don't know if I want a second castle/ inverted castle unless they make some differences like: New bosses or the old bosses more powerful Something that will make me want to explore every area in it. Take a old area and make some opposite version of it. For example turning an ice cavern, into an area with the ice gone and lava where the water was Hidden paths that weren't there before or revealed from the change I got a small(and bad) theory on how they may give us a second castle. This may be a spoiler if they do it like I think they will, so don't open the spoiler if you don't want to sort of get spoiled. Some clues is in this paragraph from the Kickstarter on Gebel and Johannes.
GebelJohannesTheoryI think after Miriam defeats Gebel for the first time, he will drag the castle back to hell, so that Miriam can't escape from him, as well as making him more powerful by being in hell additionally as he gets a second chance at trying to execute his plan. So I think the areas will then have more power full demons and the castle will be more destroyed and broken, with maybe more lava where there used to be water.With the added bonus of having new areas of the castle being there because they couldn't come with the rest of the castle from hell to earth. Bonus question: Since Gebel dragged the castle from hell it means he didn't create it. So who owned it before him? Was it maybe Dracula  It's not a really detailed theory but it something to consider. I can't remember if IGA has said anything about some of the details I have said so, please correct me if you can find something that hints on what we can expect.  |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 2, 2016 14:06:21 GMT -6
What makes the inverted castle so good though and it feel like people don't give it this credit is....
It's taking an excellently designed FULL castle from the game and flipping it on its head so it feels like a brand new experience platforming wise.
Whereas if you make a special secret area after the main castle it'll be most likely small, and you don't have nearly the design and thought that the original castle had which was the main focus to begin with.
It's like the pallet swap in Harmony, they tried something unique but it just didn't achieve the level of coolness, or the chaos realm. Same deal, it was cool but nowhere near as.... WOW as a whole castle up side down with the same great design as the original but feeing different all the same.
I guess the main point would be pallet swaps and just an additional little area just won't have he same coolness that something as HUGE as an inverted castle would have despite it being done before. I think if they do anything like this it'll have to be their own unique take of the inverted castle or something as epic.
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Arcueid Brunestud
True Ancestor
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Post by Arcueid Brunestud on Jul 2, 2016 14:47:06 GMT -6
The castle's reflection on the water is most definitely hinting at an inverted castle. |
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 2, 2016 15:09:51 GMT -6
I assumed their intention is to make a 1600-room castle without the intent of an inverted style trick. Otherwise, it wouldn't meet the stretch goal with 1600, as has been pointed out.
It's a lot to ask, but I'm thinking that the nature of 3D being a good bit faster will help here. If it had been a 2D game as many (including myself) had wanted, this would have taken a humorously long amount of time.
In their Bloodcast recently, Tom Happ had said that pixel art is indeed faster, but that's speaking on NES size pixel sprites, an up-res'd 8-bit game. For something -at least- on the level of SotN detail wise in 1080p/4k, without the ability to reuse any existing assets (in SotN's case from Rondo), you're looking at...an amount of work I can't even begin to imagine lol.
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Rixuel
Loyal Familiar
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Post by Rixuel on Jul 2, 2016 15:10:20 GMT -6
I don't think we know if areas like the ship is considered part of the castle, right? So there may be areas that are not counted towards it. Because if the ship is considered with the castle, it is considered around 4.5% of the castle. This is with the rooms shown on the map, this does not take in consideration of the rooms that aren't show on the map in some way. We can probably consider it around 5% with the inaccessible hidden rooms we can't get access to in the demo. So is there anything that clarifies what exactly counts as the castle? I don't know if I want a second castle/ inverted castle unless they make some differences like: New bosses or the old bosses more powerful Something that will make me want to explore every area in it. Take a old area and make some opposite version of it. For example turning an ice cavern, into an area with the ice gone and lava where the water was Hidden paths that weren't there before or revealed from the change I got a small(and bad) theory on how they may give us a second castle. This may be a spoiler if they do it like I think they will, so don't open the spoiler if you don't want to sort of get spoiled. Some clues is in this paragraph from the Kickstarter on Gebel and Johannes.
GebelJohannesTheoryI think after Miriam defeats Gebel for the first time, he will drag the castle back to hell, so that Miriam can't escape from him, as well as making him more powerful by being in hell additionally as he gets a second chance at trying to execute his plan. So I think the areas will then have more power full demons and the castle will be more destroyed and broken, with maybe more lava where there used to be water.With the added bonus of having new areas of the castle being there because they couldn't come with the rest of the castle from hell to earth. Bonus question: Since Gebel dragged the castle from hell it means he didn't create it. So who owned it before him? Was it maybe Dracula It's not a really detailed theory but it something to consider. I can't remember if IGA has said anything about some of the details I have said so, please correct me if you can find something that hints on what we can expect. in my theory, the counterpart of Dracula is probably Solomon himself |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 2, 2016 16:34:46 GMT -6
I assumed their intention is to make a 1600-room castle without the intent of an inverted style trick. Otherwise, it wouldn't meet the stretch goal with 1600, as has been pointed out. It's a lot to ask, but I'm thinking that the nature of 3D being a good bit faster will help here. If it had been a 2D game as many (including myself) had wanted, this would have taken a humorously long amount of time. In their Bloodcast recently, Tom Happ had said that pixel art is indeed faster, but that's speaking on NES size pixel sprites, an up-res'd 8-bit game. For something -at least- on the level of SotN detail wise in 1080p/4k, without the ability to reuse any existing assets (in SotN's case from Rondo), you're looking at...an amount of work I can't even begin to imagine lol. It would meet it if it was meaning 1600 for the first castle. |
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WindsOfOsiris
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[TI0] We are in contradiction... However our feelings for the world are no different. How odd.
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Post by WindsOfOsiris on Jul 2, 2016 20:03:52 GMT -6
The castle does look small now that its mentioned. my immediate thought is mm is the rest under water? next i wonder if we will be going deeper and deeper into the bowls of hell as if a Door to hell was left open or something, however im liking the Solomon theory it sounds really interesting. i was honestly hopeing for levels like order of ecclesia, but much more massive. Think we will get a Valmenway or Crissaegrim?
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LeoLeWolferoux
Wielder of Emptiness
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 2, 2016 20:18:49 GMT -6
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is undoubtedly IGA's largest work, and arguably IGA's BEST work. While he did say that yes, Dawn of Sorrow, and Aria of Sorrow were games created at the peak of his, and his dev team's creativity, I do think that Symphony of the night is his best game. I also think that just having one 1,600 room castle is more than enough. I do NOT want an inverted castle. Here's why.
I just recently finished SotN, and I must say that the inverted castle left a little something to be desired. The first thing that I noticed, was that the castle is (obviously) inverted. Snide comments aside, I bring this point up to say that Castlevania: Symphony of the Night did NOT have more than 900 rooms. The reason I say this is that the rooms were no different than the original castle. In fact I would say that at least 80% of the inverted castle was just like going through the original. (10% difference from change in items/enemies, and the other 10% from a stage in the inverted castle called the Floating Catacombs, which not only had integral changes, but changes to aesthetics as well)
Think about it, how much easier would it be to idealize more 'rooms' for another castle, when a huge chunk of the work is already done? Nah, I don't want an inverted castle.
I'd rather go through a big castle once, than go through the same smaller castle twice.
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