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Post by XombieMike on Feb 18, 2019 22:28:37 GMT -6
Hello everyone. It has come to my attention that progress has been made to assist with backer satisfaction regarding the cancellation of Linux and Mac platforms. My purpose for this post is to alert any affected backer and give a point of instruction for them that can be easily linked to.
On February 15th, 2019, on the Kickstarter comments in a reply to the backer "David", Angel Corlux said the following when addressing the topic,
So, digital Linux and Mac backers, please send and email to orders@fangamer.com. You may reference this post in the email by linking to it.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 22:10:19 GMT -6
My friend, what the heck? People are making arguments here about suing because the team isn't able to fulfill their Kickstarter platform. You are willing to extend that to every single backer and scrap the game completely? I'm all for giving the community an organized voice and standing up for the minority, but not at the cost of the whole project. Understandable. But yes, I am willing to risk the game as a whole to make things fair for people who earnestly feel cheated. This is just a difference of opinions between you and I. I don't expect many people to agree with me. The longer this project takes the more practices I see that I don't like. I understand that some incidents are unavoidable, but I am very, very tired of giving the benefit of the doubt, along with not holding people accountable. Shifting of development teams and the argument "This was promised by the previous guys, not us." is taking it's toll. No one else finds this discouraging that there is very little accountability? I love this genre, the game, the creator, and this community. I want this to succeed. But at some point you need to ask if it should. Does this game deserve to be released with corners cut? I am all for delays. But that is not the problem that has me concerned. Hindsight is 20/20, but there seems to be a lot of things that could have been predicted. The biggest problem is all of this conjecture. We won't be able to look behind the scenes, and we won't know what can be confirmed or denied. I get that it seems selfish, risking other peoples game for the minority. I just can't stand letting people fight by themselves. I can only speak for myself, but yes, again I am psychotic enough to be willing to pursue equal results for others. You know... you have come to this point without even knowing the stuff behind the scenes I do. Dammit, Cale. Guys, I don't know if I can try and (self proclaim) lead this community any more. It's not just about THIS current mess. It's about everything backers have been through since the Kickstarter closed. Steve from Fangamer got back with me. Here is what they replied, This tells me two things. 1. There are logistical reasons selling backer tiers through Fangamer's site won't work. No one should expect any more explanation than that. It was a good idea, and I like that the community was able to produce such a great suggestion. Thanks, Scars Unseen2. Fangamer's hands sound tied. Cale said, "the argument "This was promised by the previous guys, not us." is taking it's toll. No one else finds this discouraging that there is very little accountability?" Yeah, man. I do find it discouraging. I also find it discouraging that they won't just come out an say they can't discern Linux backers apart from other Steam backers. I also find that although I like Question, I find it disappointing that backers are the ones here trying to reason with rightfully dissatisfied backers more than he or his company on these forums.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 19:41:17 GMT -6
Your message is unhelpful and your attitude is still poor. Please try and refrain from being so uselessly negative. We all know how you feel right now, dude.
The only thing I can see as hurdles to this is deciding on which backer's tier was resold. If 17 people backed at the $30 level, how are we sure who to mail a check to if only 10 of those get purchased? I doubt it would be a problem, as I think they would all sell. The other hurdle is mailing checks, but that doesn't sound too hard. The logistics of the site will be the tough part.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 19:00:23 GMT -6
Ok, I've emailed Fangamer Steve with the following: We will see if he responds.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:39:08 GMT -6
I feel I'm too stupid to understand this. Can we voice chat about it?
I'm understanding what you are writing... but I think there are some pretty crazy details here that we might not be thinking of. I'll try and contact Fangamer about it.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:34:15 GMT -6
Oh.... Hmm... This is a new idea.
So, we should just ask Fangamer if it is possible to transfer the pledge (with receipt) to a new person, and the money be taken care of between those two people?
The issue that pops up for me when I think of that is, how does Fangamer know the money was transferred and both parties are happy? What if I say I'm selling my tier to some rando on the internet, but once I get the money just tell them to screw off?
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:22:49 GMT -6
We are all posting at the same time. Scars, congrats on the 500 comments. Scars, I also thought of crowd sourcing a refund for these people, and would in fact also put my money in on that effort. However, the big catch that prevents that, is there is no way to validate the claims. If it were just the 17 people here, and they only want refunds for reasonable tiers, I would be more inclined to continue without validation. We don't know what we are looking at though. Plus, what if it ends up working on Wine? That's some Windows emulation or something that some Windows games work on Linux. No idea, but it could happen. Plus, these folks can resale their codes and backer rewards. Also, with crowd funding on our own, transfer fees are a bitch to deal with. As much as I would love to start a crowd funded refund campaign, the chances of it being manageable and realistic are slim at best, and false hope and more disappointment at next to best, and too expensive, taken advantage of, and transfer fee ridden at worst.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 18:12:09 GMT -6
illasera Half your post was useful information, even though it was snarky. How long do you expect that to fly here? The other half is totally diverting from the topic. If you want to talk about how long the project is taking compared to SotN, do so in a relevant post. That has nothing to do with this current issue in this thread. SotN had a franchise before it to use a lot of assets from. This is done by Artplay which is like... what 6 people now? Outsourcing the game's development bulk to Dico and Mono-bit (and Wayforward now). All that AFTER they broke from IntiCreates. All on a crowd funded campaign that gave loads of stretch goals and backer incorporated content? I could go on and on, but honestly man... you are derailing the topic and you are being a smart ass even when you are on topic. But yeah, like illasera said, Scars. There is no way to even know who is a Linux backer or not. It's not a lack of funds issue, really. If they could be certain of the people to refund, I'm pretty sure they would. It's an issue though when a lot more people than the Linux backers want a refund because the game is taking so long and people have gone on a campaign to sow dissatisfaction. I'm sure that the amount of money 505 Games would have to re-allocate from the game budget would not only harm the final game, but might straight up kill it. The "untold" bit illasera put in is smarmy, but accurate. 505 Games has neither confirmed or denied that they can't tell Linux backers from Windows backers, but the evidence is in the choice that was never given. Fangamer has also declined to let me know if they could validate claims. It's a mess. We have people who deserve a refund, but it's simply impossible. The only real positive outcome I can see to work towards at this point is to show 505 Games they need to put effort into getting those platforms either unofficially or officially supported post launch. Don't expect them to comment on that though, because at this point, making promises to these good folks means nothing and would absolutely be used against them in the future should it prove impossible.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 15:06:24 GMT -6
gunlord500 As a PS4 backer I would rather lose my chance at the game than have fellow fans go without. Honestly, this is a community. If we don't stand up for the minority then we aren't doing our job as fans. My friend, what the heck? People are making arguments here about suing because the team isn't able to fulfill their Kickstarter platform. You are willing to extend that to every single backer and scrap the game completely? I'm all for giving the community an organized voice and standing up for the minority, but not at the cost of the whole project. Seperate note, if people want to organize for a lawsuit, I can make a thread here and limit it to the soul purpose of you getting together to share info. I can make it a private room for Linux / Mac backers only, trusting that those words request access are indeed backers of that platform (plus myself).
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2019 10:00:28 GMT -6
I made some edits while you were typing, sorry. Anyways we certainly are on the same side. About "why nothing can or should be done" let me make it clear that I do think something should be done. I've never said anything but that. Now yes though I do believe that something "can't be done" if that something is limited to a refund. I'm open for ideas on other things that might be possible.
absorbnix is saying that, if 505 were operating in good faith, they'd go into more detail than "middleware issues" (as the Kickstarter ToS requires) and wouldn't brush the following options under the rug:
- "We're sorry, but the Linux and Mac ports will be delayed until after launch, as we'll need money from post-launch sales to complete them."
- "We're sorry, but we've decided to cancel the Linux and Mac ports. In order to ensure that the project still completes successfully, we have to delay offering refunds until we can pay them out of post-release sales."
EDIT: Oops. Didn't notice that extra page of discussion. I'm still getting used to this forum software.
Typing on phone so please forgive the quote chain. Just wanted to point out that you and I see the same thing, but understand it differently. "if 505 were operating in good faith, they'd go into more detail than "middleware issues" 505 is certainly are lacking in the regards of giving us a lot of information. To me, the biggest gap of communication is saying if the popular theory is true or not. This doesn't bother me to the Pont of thinking they are an evil corporation though. I understand that if they choose to not answer something in specific like that it's either because they can't due to someone else's involvement or they have a larger picture of things than we do. I don't want to make excuses for them though. This is just what I think is most likely. Of course, that's the gap I'm most curious about. The gap you brought up is why they aren't specific to what problems prevented them from Linux, and how much work had been done before now to ensure native support. Do I have that much correct? If so, the same thing applies to both our gaps. They may have reasons we can't understand because they have a 10,000 foot view of the whole project. Or they have answers that would throw someone under the bus or something, and professionally it would be rude to point out and cause more problems. Or they simply ran into middle ware issues and can't expand on it. Or they realize that no matter what answer they give it won't change anything, and will only drag them deeper into a conversation that can only get worse. I have no idea. The difference between you and I is that you seem to demand more information and I'm fine with dealing with what has been given. Yours is a completely understandable position! I don't want to say it's wrong or anything! I believe 505 is acting in good faith; you deserve a refund, a refund is impossible, the decision had to be and was made to drop native support. I wish my efforts to bring understanding to the situation to Linux and Mac backers were more sucessful and we'll recieved. I feel like they are mostly futile. In the end, it doesn't change the outcome, but I was hoping I could keep you in the community as fans who look forward to playing the game in some other way. Edit: I should also add that post launch refunds are just as impossible then as they are now for the reasons I've said many times now.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 16:35:35 GMT -6
I made some edits while you were typing, sorry.
Anyways we certainly are on the same side. About "why nothing can or should be done" let me make it clear that I do think something should be done. I've never said anything but that. Now yes though I do believe that something "can't be done" if that something is limited to a refund. I'm open for ideas on other things that might be possible.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 16:22:39 GMT -6
I don't know what you're talking about, dude. You know you and I are on the same side, right?
Everything in your first two paragraphs, I agree with.
Everything in your last two paragraphs, what the heck? I just don't get you, man.
If your end goal is for them to make it right after launch, consider they may want to do that, but would be extremely foolish to make an expectation or promise about that.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 15:26:55 GMT -6
Vile was a bit over the top. Haha, sorry.
As for the quote on the lawyer bit, the rest of the sentence is important. There are only two possible outcomes with a lawsuit.
1. It fails. (It would fail, btw, don't waste your energy.)
2. It suceeds by some unfortunate miracle and ruins the rest of the game for absolutely everyone because they wouldn't be able to discern Win from Mac/Linux, therefore being forced to open up to a massive refund. That money would either come from somewhere else in the project's budget, or more likely straight up stopping it.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 12:36:51 GMT -6
Thank you. I know you left the forum before and didn't do so in some immature way. I honestly hate when when I can't bring someone to a point where they are looking forward to playing Bloodstained. I had already counted you as a failure in my efforts to bring understanding.
I don't see contradictions. I just have a different understanding on what 505 has and hasn't said. Explaining those differences is something we can talk about, but it won't be anything I or someone else probably hasn't already said.
The question about what my solution would be is a good question. A tough question. I've thought about several routes to either get backers their version that works, or a refund. I don't believe the refund route is possible. I've tried my best to make it happen behind the scenes and I'm convinced beyond doubt it's just not possible.
So, since refunds aren't possible I don't have a solution there. I feel it would be counter productive to start a crowd sourced refund campaign without a good means of verification. I believe this mostly out of the number of people minimum that I think would make a claim. Also, at the very least I'm looking at transfer fees that would hurt. Let's not dwell on refunds, because unless someone can come up with something I haven't heard yet or thought of, they are never going to happen. No solution on that route from me.
The other route is getting those platforms at the very least working and at the best, supported. I have never used Linux or Mac. I'm not the best person to make a solution here, but I love the way Browen stepped up to the plate in that regard. It's a super slim chance that would happen and I know that offer is hitting the ears of the team behind the scenes. Even if that doesn't happen (I think it has a snowballs chance) it certainly makes the right kinda waves I like to see. The community is willing to tow the weight that gets left behind. The community made all this happen in the first place. It shows "the brass" at 505 Games how creative and passionate we are, and that this is important to us. Sure, your backer dollars said that loud and clear enough for me the first time, bit this offer for a solution is being made at a perfect time.
Until the game is tested on WINE (which I've never heard of until this mess happened) we won't know what we need to do to progress this. We can't even effectively approach a campaign for getting them to officially support the game post launch until we know more, right? I don't know. I'm not the tech guy on this stuff.
I can promise this though, when the time is right I will help the community be heard loud and clear about it. Right now, I don't think that time has come and might need to wait until launch.
There are the demos out there on Steam and I think on GoG soon if not already. Can Linux testing be done with those? We were able to hack resources in and out of the game, so if it's not totally locked down, maybe peeking in there will give the community more ideas on how it will go even without the source code (which will never be given to the fans at any level I'm sure.)
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 11:58:38 GMT -6
absorbnix I've never threatened you. I suggested you register so you can edit your posts. Jeez dude, you're so hostile. Like your mouth works fine but your ears are broken. Anyway, I'm glad you registered. I hope you find a purpose for being here that isn't just repeating yourself and refusing to understand the situation. Your mention of bankruptcy or lack of money is silly. The project has its budget. It's that simple. The KS funds that were raised for development have been spent long ago to various parties to make what they have made or are making, and everything else is being continued by 505's budget for the game. This isn't the first time you've heard this though is it? So why should I keep repeating myself to you? Nothing is going to change the fact that I feel like refunds to Linux and Mac backers is the moral thing to do, and nothing is going to change that they can't refund the money or they would. However, that doesn't mean I can't get tired of individuals that just come here to spout vile snide remarks and fail to move this conversation anywhere. Look, do you actually want to get something done? Have you tried everything you can? Because all you're seeming to be doing now is pushing me who thinks you deserve a refund into being me who thinks you are unreasonable and toxic. These aren't threats. These are just my insights. I enforce rules, not pick and choose who to "censor, threaten or silence". This isn't my profession. I'm a volunteer. Professionally, I don't speak for anything. Personally, I'm sick of your attitude. Get something done. I would have loved to rally the community to back a refund and distribute the money myself. I've ran a couple of fan donation events and have handled fan money on two sucessful occasions. If anyone could start a fan campaign to get Linux and Mac backers some money back, it would be me. (Feel free to prove me wrong, and continue to just whine about stuff or empty threat legal action.) Asking for money from the rest of fans like me who think you deserve a refund has a great chance of sucess due to overwhelming stance from all backers that you do indeed deserve a refund. The huge catch there is how you prevent non backers, or non Linux / Mac backers from taking advantage of that good will. I have worked with Fangamer behind the scenes for various minor reasons in the past for Bloodstained and they have always been very responsive. I approached them with this idea of a fan campaign to refund Linux / Mac backers. I asked that if I were to get them a list of claims if they could verify them. They did not respond to me, and that is very uncharacteristic of them. What that helps confirm for me is that they have no way to tell Linux / Mac backers from Windows backers, and a refund would be opened to everyone. No staff has ever denied this and no survey choices for platforms have ever had Linux or Mac on it specifically. So a crowd funding campaign to get you your pledge back isn't going to happen. The same thing is an obstacle for knowing who is legally verifiably due a refund, which is null anyway because no one is legally due a refund. Go get a lawyer if you disagree, but I think that's a bad idea for you and everyone. Regardless, your snide comments and attitude here certainly aren't going to change anything in a positive way. Since you like making up hypothetical stories, here's one for you. Let's say we actually do crowd fund a refund campaign and discover the amount of claims are low enough we can judge on an individual basis these are legit backers, for the legit platforms, with the legit amounts pledged. Wouldn't it be funny as hell that they actually still get Steam keys or switch platforms, get their backer rewards, and end up playing it on WINE just fine? What is your goal here, and how long do you plan on doing something about it other than stinking up this place? (Written on my tiny phone. Sorry for typos.)
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 7:07:37 GMT -6
I'm still excited for the game. It's been a long time for hype levels to remain what they were during the Kickstarter. That magic is hard to keep going, but places like this where an active community shares art and fellowship helps me out with that. We have a nice direct line to the team here too.
Due to the cancelation of Vita and Linux, I totally understand why some fans have flipped. That really sucks for them, and although it doesn't affect the way I'll play the game, it affects this community that I've worked to cultivate. It doesn't stop me from being excited, but it certainly has me addressing more negativity than positivity.
That's ok though. The bad things stand out and negativity is louder than positivity. The good news is I still see new fans joining the community and being excited to play after all this time.
All these things will be part of our history, and when the game is out and has a growing following due to its sucess, we will have many cool things to celebrate just like we do with IGA's previous games.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 6:57:23 GMT -6
You can try and use the KS TOS in a legal way like that and mix it with your opinion, but at the end of the day, KS is going to side with 505. I know why, and I could explain it again, but you could think that's just my opinion as must as I say yours is yours.
The KS TOS isn't going to change anything for this mess. Your opinion on transparency included.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2019 11:27:31 GMT -6
Heh, sorry man. My joke wasn't that funny. I shouldn't have been a smart ass.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2019 10:33:21 GMT -6
写真で見ると日本人(?)のスタッフさんも多いんですね。応援してます! はい、でも彼らは忙しいです。あなたが必要なら私は彼らの注意を引くでしょう
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2019 10:29:45 GMT -6
Well, I have always seen DarkPrinceAlucard's posts here showing his work for his AoS hack, but I had never followed the link to his modding community forum until today. castlevaniamodding.boards.netThis looks like a great place to go if you want to start hacking some CV games and replacing sprites. It's good to see so many great Castlevania related fan sites out there who are active and healthy.
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