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Post by marscaleb on Apr 3, 2016 23:27:19 GMT -6
After watching the gameplay footage Iga shared, which shows the basic grid map they are testing with, my first thought was that our heroine looks too big, or that the camera is too close to her.
It's not by a lot, but a simple adjustment would make a huge difference.
I feel that it works much better for a game if you can see more of the area around you, and have more room to move around.
I took a screen capture of the video and measured it, and she's only about 2% bigger than Alucard in SOTN, but with all the other nuances of the 3D camera, it just *feels* a little too claustrophobic. If the view was pulled out just a bit, it would feel more open.
It looks like the camera can see a vertical height of less than twelve blocks. That really ought to be extended to at least 15.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 10:04:32 GMT -6
After watching the gameplay footage Iga shared, which shows the basic grid map they are testing with, my first thought was that our heroine looks too big, or that the camera is too close to her. It's not by a lot, but a simple adjustment would make a huge difference. I feel that it works much better for a game if you can see more of the area around you, and have more room to move around. I took a screen capture of the video and measured it, and she's only about 2% bigger than Alucard in SOTN, but with all the other nuances of the 3D camera, it just *feels* a little too claustrophobic. If the view was pulled out just a bit, it would feel more open. It looks like the camera can see a vertical height of less than twelve blocks. That really ought to be extended to at least 15. I think we're all just too used to the DS games and the small screens. SOTN Alucard looks pretty big which was on a console. They want to be able to show off the details better so it makes sense that you see the character better. Especially with equipment that changes the characters appearance. I'm not against pulling out the camera a little bit though just saying that we've come from the DS games and we've been getting used to how it looks in that setting. |
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Post by Maker on Apr 4, 2016 11:43:48 GMT -6
That's actually an excellent way to describe how I felt watching the footage as well. Perhaps to alleviate this a camera control option would be nice? Scaling in this game is gong to be a huge part of how it appeals to the eye and I'm in no way qualified to poke at the unfinished product so far, but I feel if Miriam had way more animations on things like turning / transitions it would look much much less jarring.
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Post by marscaleb on Apr 4, 2016 11:53:50 GMT -6
I think we're all just too used to the DS games and the small screens. SOTN Alucard looks pretty big which was on a console. I personally base my experiences off of home consoles more than the handhelds. They want to be able to show off the details better so it makes sense that you see the character better. Especially with equipment that changes the characters appearance. Gameplay ought to take priority. Perhaps to alleviate this a camera control option would be nice? Except that the camera effects they show suggests that the camera is very fixed with the environment; when you move to a new room the camera locks into place. |
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:56:48 GMT -6
I think we're all just too used to the DS games and the small screens. SOTN Alucard looks pretty big which was on a console. I personally base my experiences off of home consoles more than the handhelds. They want to be able to show off the details better so it makes sense that you see the character better. Especially with equipment that changes the characters appearance. Gameplay ought to take priority. Perhaps to alleviate this a camera control option would be nice? Except that the camera effects they show suggests that the camera is very fixed with the environment; when you move to a new room the camera locks into place. When the character is essentially the same size as Alucard, I don't see gameplay being effected as SOTN was great. Gameplay will be effected if systems that change your character are harder to notice, which makes the point of adding visual changes less enjoyable. MakerThey have a nice turn animation in it but it's hard to see because there wasn't much turning happening.  |
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Post by marscaleb on Apr 4, 2016 12:13:18 GMT -6
When the character is essentially the same size as Alucard, I don't see gameplay being effected as SOTN was great. Gameplay will be effected if systems that change your character are harder to notice, which makes the point of adding visual changes less enjoyable. Miriam is notably bigger than Alucard. And honestly, Alucard was kind of big to begin with. In sprite-based games, character size was very much a result of the technical limitations. A couple extra pixels meant a HUGE difference in terms of visual quality. One texel was one pixel, and there were not many pixels to work with. But this is not so with modern technology. With modern tech, the character can be made even smaller on the screen and show plenty of detail, and making the character show more detail honestly feels like taking a step back. I'm curious what gameplay systems you expect will have to be noticed on your character. If a mechanic were dependent on being seen on the player, it would by necessity have to be pretty obvious. If it were so small that a difference of character size between 15% makes it hard to notice, then it is probably designed wrong. |
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 12:30:18 GMT -6
When the character is essentially the same size as Alucard, I don't see gameplay being effected as SOTN was great. Gameplay will be effected if systems that change your character are harder to notice, which makes the point of adding visual changes less enjoyable. Miriam is notably bigger than Alucard. And honestly, Alucard was kind of big to begin with. In sprite-based games, character size was very much a result of the technical limitations. A couple extra pixels meant a HUGE difference in terms of visual quality. One texel was one pixel, and there were not many pixels to work with. But this is not so with modern technology. With modern tech, the character can be made even smaller on the screen and show plenty of detail, and making the character show more detail honestly feels like taking a step back. I'm curious what gameplay systems you expect will have to be noticed on your character. If a mechanic were dependent on being seen on the player, it would by necessity have to be pretty obvious. If it were so small that a difference of character size between 15% makes it hard to notice, then it is probably designed wrong.  Is NOT notably bigger. Alucard being big was never a problem to me especially because of how beautiful the sprite was and how well animated the character is. |
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Post by Maker on Apr 10, 2016 10:21:00 GMT -6
CastleDan Woah, okay I totally missed that, good eye.
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Post by Astaroth on Apr 10, 2016 13:23:04 GMT -6
i havent found the quote again yet, but i believe it was in one of Mana posts or one of the ask igas that one of igas guidelines is the character height should be 1/4 of the screen for maximum visibility without taking up too much space or losing too mush detail, and since almost all of igas games follow the 1 map square = 1 screen size setup as well, as far as scale we should be looking at the same scale of sotn for the default camera just with the ability to pack more detail since its not constrained by pixels like the ps1/gba/ds, however there may be different zoom levels so you can pull in and look closely at things in the bg or zoom out to get an idea of the layout of the room |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 11, 2016 7:12:30 GMT -6
i havent found the quote again yet, but i believe it was in one of Mana posts or one of the ask igas that one of igas guidelines is the character height should be 1/4 of the screen for maximum visibility without taking up too much space or losing too mush detail... Last paragraph from this post: bloodstainedfanforums.com/post/27284Regarding Miriam's size in comparison to the screen, there's a golden ratio within the team in which the character's height should be 1/4 of the screen height. This was planned in SotN and past DS series during development. Before Igavania games, the characters were much smaller (e.g. NES Castlevania and Castlevania II) which could be a reason why someone thought she was taking too much space. Sounds fine to me. |
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Post by marscaleb on Apr 11, 2016 16:27:45 GMT -6
Last paragraph from this post: bloodstainedfanforums.com/post/27284Regarding Miriam's size in comparison to the screen, there's a golden ratio within the team in which the character's height should be 1/4 of the screen height. This was planned in SotN and past DS series during development. Before Igavania games, the characters were much smaller (e.g. NES Castlevania and Castlevania II) which could be a reason why someone thought she was taking too much space. Sounds fine to me. Well then this is something I and the team disagree with. For a game where mobility is important, and exploring in screen-sized areas is important, I wouldn't want anything more than 1/5 of the screen height, but I would aim for a bit less than that, really. About 18%. Quite simply, you need room to move. With the games I've worked on, characters that size negatively impacted the experience. But I've voiced my opinion, and that's all I can do. It's their game, not mine. |
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 11, 2016 16:56:09 GMT -6
Well then this is something I and the team disagree with. For a game where mobility is important, and exploring in screen-sized areas is important, I wouldn't want anything more than 1/5 of the screen height, but I would aim for a bit less than that, really. About 18%. Quite simply, you need room to move. With the games I've worked on, characters that size negatively impacted the experience. But I've voiced my opinion, and that's all I can do. It's their game, not mine. If it worked for people in SOTN, I'm sure it'll be fine here. |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Apr 11, 2016 17:43:11 GMT -6
Well then this is something I and the team disagree with. For a game where mobility is important, and exploring in screen-sized areas is important, I wouldn't want anything more than 1/5 of the screen height, but I would aim for a bit less than that, really. About 18%. Quite simply, you need room to move. With the games I've worked on, characters that size negatively impacted the experience. But I've voiced my opinion, and that's all I can do. It's their game, not mine. If it worked for people in SOTN, I'm sure it'll be fine here. And strictly speaking, we'll have more horizontal screen space in Bloodstained since SotN was 4:3 ratio. |
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 11, 2016 17:47:20 GMT -6
If it worked for people in SOTN, I'm sure it'll be fine here. And strictly speaking, we'll have more horizontal screen space in Bloodstained since SotN was 4:3 ratio. Yup, that's an important thing to note. Like I said also, I like that i'll be able to see Miriam a bit better, she will have visual equipment changes. Lol |
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Post by Mana on Apr 12, 2016 3:19:56 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your opinion marscaleb ! Although the team is quite set with the default camera zoom, we can't disregard different zoom levels that could be manually adjusted if we do add it. As you've mentioned, having a smaller character has its merit - see more of the environment and more space to move around. This is my personal opinion, but there are also merits to having a bigger character with less space. One as CastleDan has mentioned, is being able to see the character details and equipment changes. Another is making the game more difficult in a positive perspective. The more space we have, the easier it is to evade enemy attacks. Having a smaller space makes it harder for the players to predict when/where the enemy is going to appear and attack. This also gives the players shorter amount of time to respond as well as having less room to evade. I liked that since I'm a masochist it was more challenging and made me think of ways to get pass through the level. Perhaps this is only appealing to those who prefer difficult action over free-roaming RPG element. |
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Post by crocodile on Apr 12, 2016 3:45:16 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your opinion marscaleb ! Although the team is quite set with the default camera zoom, we can't disregard different zoom levels that could be manually adjusted if we do add it. As you've mentioned, having a smaller character has its merit - see more of the environment and more space to move around. This is my personal opinion, but there are also merits to having a bigger character with less space. One as CastleDan has mentioned, is being able to see the character details and equipment changes. Another is making the game more difficult in a positive perspective. The more space we have, the easier it is to evade enemy attacks. Having a smaller space makes it harder for the players to predict when/where the enemy is going to appear and attack. This also gives the players shorter amount of time to respond as well as having less room to evade. I liked that since I'm a masochist it was more challenging and made me think of ways to get pass through the level. Perhaps this is only appealing to those who prefer difficult action over free-roaming RPG element. I can agree that the average encounter in an Igavania game could stand to be more difficult and I would hope Bloodstained take the opportunity to pursue that path. However, I'd personally rather achieve that through smarter/more aggressive enemy AI, smart enemy placement, high stats or fearsome attacks rather than "SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER!" ad infitium. Occasionally that may work but doing that repeatedly I think starts to cross the line into cheap. Or at least I'd rather do it in a way that if a player is attentive they can see such a surprise coming and prepare but if they aren't paying attention then they are liable to get punished. |
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Post by Mana on Apr 12, 2016 5:12:00 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your opinion marscaleb ! Although the team is quite set with the default camera zoom, we can't disregard different zoom levels that could be manually adjusted if we do add it. As you've mentioned, having a smaller character has its merit - see more of the environment and more space to move around. This is my personal opinion, but there are also merits to having a bigger character with less space. One as CastleDan has mentioned, is being able to see the character details and equipment changes. Another is making the game more difficult in a positive perspective. The more space we have, the easier it is to evade enemy attacks. Having a smaller space makes it harder for the players to predict when/where the enemy is going to appear and attack. This also gives the players shorter amount of time to respond as well as having less room to evade. I liked that since I'm a masochist it was more challenging and made me think of ways to get pass through the level. Perhaps this is only appealing to those who prefer difficult action over free-roaming RPG element. I can agree that the average encounter in an Igavania game could stand to be more difficult and I would hope Bloodstained take the opportunity to pursue that path. However, I'd personally rather achieve that through smarter/more aggressive enemy AI, smart enemy placement, high stats or fearsome attacks rather than "SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER!" ad infitium. Occasionally that may work but doing that repeatedly I think starts to cross the line into cheap. Or at least I'd rather do it in a way that if a player is attentive they can see such a surprise coming and prepare but if they aren't paying attention then they are liable to get punished. Of course being too close and having sudden surprise attacks all the time wouldn't really be enjoyable. What I was referring to may have been a bit exaggerated to prove a point, but it does potentially change the difficulty. This is probably the reason why I also agree with the 1/4 ratio that the team uses as a guideline. It's a good distance to read the environment, see the character details, and have the right amount of preparation time for an oncoming enemy. |
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 12, 2016 6:07:19 GMT -6
The current screen-size looks fine to me!  I definitely agree with crocodile and Mana on the difficulty. I prefer the challenge! |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 12, 2016 7:48:29 GMT -6
I can agree that the average encounter in an Igavania game could stand to be more difficult and I would hope Bloodstained take the opportunity to pursue that path. However, I'd personally rather achieve that through smarter/more aggressive enemy AI, smart enemy placement, high stats or fearsome attacks rather than "SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER!" ad infitium. Occasionally that may work but doing that repeatedly I think starts to cross the line into cheap. Or at least I'd rather do it in a way that if a player is attentive they can see such a surprise coming and prepare but if they aren't paying attention then they are liable to get punished. I really think she's speaking in more general terms and not something so concrete and constant. It's a general aspect of the game's design, not as much the main catalyst of difficulty...a design choice carrying particular positive effects, that being one. I think that mainly it provides excitement as much as it does challenge, not knowing what's next. If you can see farther, then an enemy may by necessity have to aggro farther away as well, making for a more boring and predictable experience. To me that would be a better point than the toughness of it. Someone could also feel that it might be unrealistic only seeing this short distance ahead that the screen is, but I would counter that with saying we're mostly inside dim environments with candlelight or only the natural lighting of the moon (albeit a somewhat bright red one). So, seeing that, it seems almost just as accurate realistically to limit vision to a shorter distance in a castle with a bunch of candles or outside in a courtyard at night. |
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 12, 2016 8:21:06 GMT -6
This would be different if they were changing the ratio to a size they've never done before but it's a ratio they always use so.... I don't think this is an issue. Unless you had issues with the other igavanias in accordance to this. On a big ol tv I wouldn't want Miriam to be even smaller than she already is.
However, there could be some concern with the vita version due to its screen size
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