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Post by CastleDan on Apr 3, 2016 15:07:49 GMT -6
As promised I said I'd upload pics of frames frozen on specific animations of etails to show the great work they're doing. This is the turn around which is always beautiful animation in the 2d games. When you do a quick change of direction you see the front of the character. Still looks as good as ever in bloodstained.this is the iconic idle pose of Miriam and reminds me of Soma's in dawn which I think is great- This is her crouch This is the animation I noticed when she's running full speed and stops abruptly Finally her good ol kick! So i gotta say they're putting the attention to detail that they did with the 2d games which is very reassuring. I couldn't be happier after watching this in slo mo and seeing all the little details. All they truly need is minor adjustments and even then it's just icing on a cake Quoting this for the third pge
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 3, 2016 19:43:10 GMT -6
I mostly agree as well, the platform dropping was a bit odd. Alucard's ascent/descent in jumping was certainly perfect, and it sounds like you guys are referencing that.
I think the main thing I noticed on my own though was the omission of a flowing garment or easily seen trail behind the character. If her dress/skirt was a bit longer and flowing behind her, I think that would be a great help for the fluidity of movement and screen presence, but hopefully the ribbons can very well do this also. It's just that I'm now realizing also that every character in his similar games has had more in the way of flowing garments, coats, dresses, capes, etc. Miriam's is more or less just a frilly corset dress...
Hm, so at the very least, I can definitely see why they decided to change the concept art now. It's a pretty significant thing.
edit: Oh, and someone noticed that Cursed Orphan sounded different like I did, and yeah...the bell is louder/more pronounced.
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Post by Count Dracula on Apr 3, 2016 21:42:24 GMT -6
It's too early to judge the game before the final product But I'd be happier if the form of new Igavania now is the same first 2D concept mockup design that was released in 11 May 2015
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 3, 2016 21:49:29 GMT -6
It's too early to judge the game before the final product But I'd be happier if the form of new Igavania now is the same first 2D concept mockup design that was released in 11 May 2015 I'm actually digging the 2.5d look more than that concept art
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Post by JoJo on Apr 3, 2016 22:35:04 GMT -6
With all of this animation, combo system is really not that far-fetched already so, combo??
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Post by XombieMike on Apr 4, 2016 6:11:51 GMT -6
It's too early to judge the game before the final product But I'd be happier if the form of new Igavania now is the same first 2D concept mockup design that was released in 11 May 2015 It's taken them this long to get the character and backgrounds done in 3D. Just because an artist made concept art for the game without using 3D software to do it never meant to give the impression that the game is in 2D. It's clearly been 2.5D from the start as stated in the original Kickstarter description. In this concept art you can see the floor has some perspective on it. SotN didn't have that. The cell shaded look was added to shader to make it look more hand illustrated just to appeal to people that share your opinion on 2D. There is a retro style section of the game as well. I'm sorry you feel like you could be happier. This is the direction it's been since the beginning, and implying that the team has strayed away from the concept art is inaccurate.
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Post by Redogan on Apr 4, 2016 6:18:40 GMT -6
As far as the flowing garments are concerned, I would make her corset skirt/bottom be longer in the back and short in the front. The ribbons are good for up top, but she should have something flowing from her waist. Nothing too long, but something that flows behind her when she runs and hangs down to around the knees in the back when she is idle.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Apr 4, 2016 7:09:34 GMT -6
I don't know, I could have gone with a design like that, but I wouldn't want them to change Miriam's design from what it is now that she's already here. Besides, that seems a bit too close to Shanoa's design. Maybe as an alternate outfit.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 4, 2016 7:09:56 GMT -6
As far as the flowing garments are concerned, I would make her corset skirt/bottom be longer in the back and short in the front. The ribbons are good for up top, but she should have something flowing from her waist. Nothing too long, but something that flows behind her when she runs and hangs down to around the knees in the back when she is idle. That's pretty much what I was thinking. Her existing design is the closest to older Maria as far as the length/type of garment, who also didn't have much going on with things flowing or afterimages (who also was never truly an "official" IGA character). Miriam is also kind of loosely similar to a classic male Belmont in costume design in that it's mostly a top, gloves and boots...with just the top's leather/fabric fauld covering the bottom/legs. Interesting to think about. Just gandering at the silhouette of the character from a distance, it could be almost reminiscent of a blue/black Simon or Trevor. No idea if that could be an intentional or subconscious association idea. If that's the intent or something possibly unintended that's convenient, I'm cool with that haha...but yeah, something flying and gracefully stopping with her at full framerate in the 2.5 would look pretty great. Alternate costume? There may be something equippable for this, or the ribbons themselves could possibly fill this need just enough (as they've thought to add already)? They do seem comparatively diminutive... A dignified, regal screen presence with glorious dress physics...it sounds great. I could see one potential issue being that this kind of outfit + the crystal effect/afterimages and whatever else might be too much. With everything else likely going on in as ornate a background as the shader screenshot, maybe not though? edit: Oh yeah, so Astaroth, are they on target with what you were thinking the updates would be?
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Post by wabawanga on Apr 4, 2016 8:05:03 GMT -6
The animation looks fantastic overall! As for the shader, I think the lack of anti-aliasing really hurts the cel-shaded look. I know it's probably not a priority for them at this point, but I hope it's on their radar...
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 9:42:03 GMT -6
With all of this animation, combo system is really not that far-fetched already so, combo?? God I hope not. Why would anyone want a combo system within an igavania? It'd destroy the very pacing and feel of what makes those games special. They don't need to make Mirror of Fate pt 2. They need to make a igavania game The Floatiness complaint- I think the people who think it's too slow or floaty ( i was one of them originally) should check out the older igavania's including SOTN. You will notice that Bloodstained is actually very close to the speed of how those games felt, from how she jumps to how she falls, to how she runs. Part of the reason you might think it's slower is because you don't have the actual backgrounds, or that she doesn't have her ribbons equipped or simply that it's hard to see it without comparing it directly with one of the 2d games. As a 2.5d game it might seem slow as of right now but they are capturing the very essence of the 2d games, so I'm really hoping they don't iron it out completely just because we are seeing it in a very raw state ( test level).
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Post by Scars Unseen on Apr 4, 2016 10:26:47 GMT -6
Someone mentioned in the KS comments that Miriam was taking up too much room on the screen. Here's a side by side comparison of Alucard and Miriam in their respective games: As you can see, they are just about the exact same size*. I think that making her(and by association, everything else) any smaller would destroy the detail in the artwork, making the game a poorer experience overall.
*if you're wondering why the SotN screen cuts off shorter than the Bloodstained one, it's because SotN had a lot more space taken up by flooring details, so I had to push the image down in order to get them at the same level.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 10:43:13 GMT -6
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Post by dimlitcandle on Apr 4, 2016 11:07:54 GMT -6
People need to wait and see more with the background before making a petty judgement that she is too slow. She moves like she floats much like Alucard did, it's more of a symbol of a type of inhumanity that was INTENTIONAL. (Note that Soma in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow always moved faster, even despite his magic powers---A human with magic powers would move faster appearance-wise than say---a half-vampire, or a human experiment half made of demonic crystal. Literally suspended animation movements are incredible to use in these instances!!) Her initial design was going to be even less human, but then Iga remembered no one would be able to relate much to her if she was ALL undead/not-living. I can only imagine how she would look moving as undead, an artificial human, or a magic doll... I have few complaints: everything looks great! I only noticed that anti-aliasing as someone mentioned might be important to have, not that I can tell if its there or not. Don't want any jagged lines on Miriam. Edited: For clarity.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:14:40 GMT -6
You're comparing a 2.5D game to a 2D game. Yes, Alucard's movements looked good, but that was a sprite, and Miriam's 3D model simply looks too stiff and slow when it moves like that. It needs more improvements and changes so they'll look good. Saying that they are good because they are similar to the 2D games shouldn't be the focus of the topic because the game isn't even going to be in 2D. No, I'm saying they look good because they actually look good. My point is they match the feel of an igavania game. This isn't strider where it's super speedy in movements and the character falls down with a good bit of speed, this is a spiritual successor of castlevania and the feel of how the character moves is integral to the vibe of the game. There's a sense of grace to the fall, and that's what the float like vibe brings. The comparisons I'm showing off is to show people that it's actually not slower, it's more likely that you are used to seeing the backgrounds move behind the character which gives the sense of quickness, among other things. Ironing out that graceful type fall and changing it into a much quicker speed could change the whole feel of it in a bad way.
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Post by JoJo on Apr 4, 2016 11:15:21 GMT -6
With all of this animation, combo system is really not that far-fetched already so, combo?? God I hope not. Why would anyone want a combo system within an igavania? It'd destroy the very pacing and feel of what makes those games special. They don't need to make Mirror of Fate pt 2. They need to make a igavania game . Ok then, with all of this animation, how about making the animation so fluid that it feels like a combo? Good enough?
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 4, 2016 11:18:00 GMT -6
God I hope not. Why would anyone want a combo system within an igavania? It'd destroy the very pacing and feel of what makes those games special. They don't need to make Mirror of Fate pt 2. They need to make a igavania game . Ok then, with all of this animation, how about making the animation so fluid that it feels like a combo? Good enough? Why would you want a combo at all? Aren't we all here because we miss igavania games? He's never been about combos, unless it was a 3d game.
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Post by dimlitcandle on Apr 4, 2016 11:18:44 GMT -6
You're comparing a 2.5D game to a 2D game. Yes, Alucard's movements looked good, but that was a sprite, and Miriam's 3D model simply looks too stiff and slow when it moves like that. It needs more improvements and changes so they'll look good. Saying that they are good because they are similar to the 2D games shouldn't be the focus of the topic because the game isn't even going to be in 2D. The whole point of the game is that it's 2.5D that it's literally drawing off of 2D animation to translate that into 3D. I'm not saying that they are good because they are similar to the past games. I'm saying they're good because of the context that they are put in---that 2D to 3D look they've been trying to pull off since the cel shading. It looks fine, I see nothing wrong with the way she moves even if you all think she moves too slow. She just looks like she's moving slow, it's actually not slow. It's a floating, inhuman movement. It's not going to look fast, or else the feel of the game would be thrown off. Elegant movements, not speed. Besides, why are you all complaining before we see the movement paired with the backgrounds? I can agree to disagree. Edit: Castledan had it right there, feel free to delete if you feel this is too similar to his post.
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Post by JoJo on Apr 4, 2016 11:28:58 GMT -6
Ok then, with all of this animation, how about making the animation so fluid that it feels like a combo? Good enough? Why would you want a combo at all? Aren't we all here because we miss igavania games? He's never been about combos, unless it was a 3d game. Well, ever since I played games that relies a lot on combos I feel like combo system is a necessity now to me wouldn't it be fun where Miriam will be badass with all of the combos? and I will say this, I do want classic igavania games, but embracing the future a bit will not hurt at all, wouldn't it?
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Post by wabawanga on Apr 4, 2016 11:31:41 GMT -6
Re: "Floatiness"
I hope that Inti designs a movement system that works for this game, rather than try to slavishly re-create the exact feel of some other game. I don't think "floatiness" was an integral part of the success of SotN, and I don't think it should be preserved just for the sake of nostalgia.
Obviously, bringing back the “Igavania feel” is going to mean different things to different people. I just would caution against falling into that almost cargo-cult mentality of demanding that they replicate all the weird little idiosyncrasies we have come to associate with great games, but weren't necessarily what made those games great.
With all that said, I think that we'll all adapt to whatever movement style this game ends up with (as long as it's not game-breakingly bad). I tend to believe that players' impression of character movement is one of those things that ends up being rationalized post-hoc to fit their overall impression of the game--a particular movement system could be judged as "snappy and responsive" or "frustratingly twitchy" depending on how enjoyable the whole experience is!
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