JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 13, 2015 17:58:05 GMT -6
OK folks I haven't done this before... this will be my first forum (weird I know) but this is a question I have for you. mind you be for the question I would like to state that I love the SotN game and it's gameplay BUT, Igavaina games are too easy because of this RPG leveling system. I am not suggesting to take it out completely but what about we level up our weapons and armor instead of ourselves? those pieces have lv caps but when we get to a new area we can use other items to raise the lv cap.
I know it's a radical idea but I think it will be better then just getting tooo powerful and making the game a bit too easy.
another Idea was: "I think I recall some games having a modified exp system where enemies that were common or lower than your level gave progressively less and less exp so you could never really power level without heavy investment." Kristian Peterson (from KS comment board) *I like this one*
So what are your thoughts?
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jun 13, 2015 18:20:50 GMT -6
I don't think equipment should level. That's way too much for completionists, and it causes you to level down if your equipment isn't suited.
Instead, you could level certain abilities which are eqiuped. This would be similar to Harmony of Despair. They've already stated they want to make abilities equippable by changing out crystals.
I would like for this to work like the Mega Man Battle Network series. In these games you had various different abilities you could equip that either changed your skills or stats. You had to fit them in a box, kind of like tetris. Whether or not you had to puzzle piece them together I'd like it to work like that, and level abilities wit points or something.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 13, 2015 18:54:28 GMT -6
I don't think equipment should level. That's way too much for completionists, and it causes you to level down if your equipment isn't suited. Instead, you could level certain abilities which are eqiuped. This would be similar to Harmony of Despair. They've already stated they want to make abilities equippable by changing out crystals. I would like for this to work like the Mega Man Battle Network series. In these games you had various different abilities you could equip that either changed your skills or stats. You had to fit them in a box, kind of like tetris. Whether or not you had to puzzle piece them together I'd like it to work like that, and level abilities wit points or something. yeah I like the lv up the abilities thing but not too fond of the tetris thing... I felt so hindered by that. I know it is a good system and I could defiantly see it work on Bloodstained though shards of stained glass (or crystals)
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hybridmiriam
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Post by hybridmiriam on Jun 13, 2015 20:20:43 GMT -6
I'm fine with having a stat increase, but having base equipment that can't be augmented in any way, shape, or form. To be frank it sometimes overwhelms me and has me shying away from the game. Not that I only prefer the simple stye with your whip and a few items.
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Post by Administrator on Jun 13, 2015 20:21:39 GMT -6
I think leveling up anything promotes grinding... but what better system would take the place of giving some depth to players who just don't have skills to beat a tough boss without some level buffer? I think it is meant to help customize your character to your play style a bit.
I moved this thread because it was in "Off topic", but it's very much on the topic of Bloodstained.
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Post by WhisperingId on Jun 13, 2015 20:57:45 GMT -6
One game that comes to mind is FF8, where the mobs level progressively _as you level_, meaning nothing necessarily gets easier when you gain a level.. actually, things can get harder as maybe the mobs unlock special attacks or new randomized movement sequences as they level, that you may not be prepared for... leaving level grinding as not really an option for winning battles (or even for defeating normal mobs), it all comes down to strategy.
this obviously could be a bad system if they allow people to totally screw up their stats by allowing individual stat allotments on leveling vs just blanket stat boosts on leveling. if someone just went in and said HP++++ & INT+++++ chances are the character wouldn't be balanced enough regardless of strategy.
"I'm interested in this"
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Post by SookyLala on Jun 13, 2015 21:01:08 GMT -6
I personally really love the RPG Elements and this game would not appeal to me as much without them
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Thomas
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Post by Thomas on Jun 13, 2015 21:25:38 GMT -6
The problem with leveling gear is that it generally results in players using and exploring less of the items in the game. Once you dedicate time and effort to a weapon or great piece your going to want to keep using that item.
Personally I'd prefer the SoTN system of leveling but with items having less "stats" in favor of unique mechanics. Special attacks, attack style, speed and range being the key features that differentiate weapons.
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Post by SookyLala on Jun 13, 2015 21:35:28 GMT -6
With Nightmare mode though, the game won't feel easy. Beat the game, if it's too easy(IF) play nightmare mode, get owned, go back to normal mode ;D
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jun 13, 2015 21:54:31 GMT -6
To expand further on what I want equipment to be...
They've stated that they want to make craftable equipment. You'll get non-rare drops from monsters that you'll be able to use to craft various pieces of equipment. I think it would be nice if equipment recipes weren't so cut and dry.
Say you have a recipe for that flame sword, well, what if it's not a flame sword recipe but an elemental sword recipe? You switch out the flaming eye for the icy husk and bam, ice sword. You switch out the rock turtle shell for a bone of an iron skeleton, and now you've got some sweet bonuses to your sword. Or something.
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hybridmiriam
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Post by hybridmiriam on Jun 13, 2015 23:24:38 GMT -6
To expand further on what I want equipment to be... They've stated that they want to make craftable equipment. You'll get non-rare drops from monsters that you'll be able to use to craft various pieces of equipment. I think it would be nice if equipment recipes weren't so cut and dry. Say you have a recipe for that flame sword, well, what if it's not a flame sword recipe but an elemental sword recipe? You switch out the flaming eye for the icy husk and bam, ice sword. You switch out the rock turtle shell for a bone of an iron skeleton, and now you've got some sweet bonuses to your sword. Or something. I was discussing the procedurally generated dungeon with my friend the other day and put forth an interesting idea. Akin to Bloodborne's chalice dungeons, what if the extra rogue-dungeon had specific drops or enemies in it? That way you could farm it on the side and craft high-tier equipment to use either in the main castle or in the rogue dungeon itself.
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thrashinuva
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Post by thrashinuva on Jun 13, 2015 23:37:36 GMT -6
That's an interesting idea.
You could make the rogue-like dungeon not just something you unlock after beating the game, but something that exists to enhance the main game itself.
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hybridmiriam
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Post by hybridmiriam on Jun 14, 2015 1:21:48 GMT -6
Sort of like the item world in the Disgaea games. Just a thought, but one I'd be pretty content with.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 14, 2015 2:53:40 GMT -6
I think leveling up anything promotes grinding... but what better system would take the place of giving some depth to players who just don't have skills to beat a tough boss without some level buffer? I think it is meant to help customize your character to your play style a bit. I moved this thread because it was in "Off topic", but it's very much on the topic of Bloodstained. Yeah that is why I brought it up here. I want to see what the community can come up with. Oh and thanks for moving my post again this is the first forum I have participated in and wasn't sure where it went. "Domo"
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 14, 2015 2:59:06 GMT -6
One game that comes to mind is FF8, where the mobs level progressively _as you level_, meaning nothing necessarily gets easier when you gain a level.. actually, things can get harder as maybe the mobs unlock special attacks or new randomized movement sequences as they level, that you may not be prepared for... leaving level grinding as not really an option for winning battles (or even for defeating normal mobs), it all comes down to strategy. this obviously could be a bad system if they allow people to totally screw up their stats by allowing individual stat allotments on leveling vs just blanket stat boosts on leveling. if someone just went in and said HP++++ & INT+++++ chances are the character wouldn't be balanced enough regardless of strategy. "I'm interested in this" yeah that don't appeal to me too much ^^; I was never good at mapping out my stats correctly... I am one of those that power though monsters (and lv up if I can't) but I want the boss to be a bit of a problem. I hate going through monster after monster just to get a soul/item/weapon/armor and getting to the next few bosses and killing them with little to no effort (as if they were a normal monster)
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Post by nekurors on Jun 14, 2015 14:37:29 GMT -6
Actually i don't think the later igavania games are easy, i wouldn't call them hard either, but it seems much more balanced. I mean, i never really expected the first of this genre (SOTN) to be balanced at all, they had a small team and limited time, if you read the interview the ingame character windows is actually a dev menu (pretty straight forward numbers and no background), and the unfinished Underground Garden area. They did it in some rush, so that's why it is unbalanced and easy as you advance.
In the later games i felt it became much more balanced, not easy anymore. It is pretty hard to balance all these weapon and equipment, put they on the right place, considering the equips you already have and the enemies you have to fight in the next rooms, seems quite complex. But i clearly see Iga is refining these elements each new game, so i am not worried about it.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 14, 2015 16:29:00 GMT -6
I know what you mean nekurors, it is seeming more and more balanced but the fact remains, if you are killing monsters over and over again for a certain item if the "play" at the time has you very unlucky you might kill many, many monsters and level many, many times before earning it and then you get to the boss and boom killed quickly...
Don't get me wrong I love these games and would love would most likely love any games Iga comes out with but, I am interested in seeing what fans (like me) has to say about this. Like one person on KS said if there was a way to turn off the exp so you earn nothing while you farm for items. I think that is brilliant. It gives the player control over how much exp they receive and can turn it off when they farm...
thanks for the your answer, I agree with most of what you say but if we farm too much for souls or items we become too much of a power house... and that is the only part I want to change. now anyone have anymore ideas on how to balance this exp thing even more? heck Iga might have already figured it out.
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Watcher of the Woods
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Post by Watcher of the Woods on Jun 14, 2015 16:35:29 GMT -6
I want it to be as RPG as possible, the deeper the rules mechanics, the more detail can be brought to the table. I think it's just a matter of balancing things out right with the game. They have to figure out how to take this genre to the next level.
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Cale
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Post by Cale on Jun 14, 2015 17:20:51 GMT -6
@jeffcross
I think they can accommodate you.
Classic Mode: Classic Mode. This is a cool one, especially if you've been playing action platformers since controllers had two buttons: In Classic Mode, existing assets and screens from the game will be rearranged linearly, to reward timing and survival instead of backtracking and exploration.
IGA and company are still too early in the planning process to promise anything, but right now he's envisioning six punishing stages. In grand classic platformer fashion, you'll be weaker and the enemies will be stronger, and forget about saving yourself by grinding—no RPG elements here.
If you've always preferred your castles punishingly difficult, straightforward, and scrolling from left to right, this is the stretch goal for you.
Personally I enjoy RPG elements, levelling character, spells, items, all seem fun to me. They will have a mode for non RPG elements, I want to be able to see myself increase in strength. I can also have self imposed challenges, like speed runs, only boss kill, no spells, no items, fist weapon only runs. If they are going to restrict the RPG elements I don't want it to be forced on me, I can always make the game harder for myself anyway.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 14, 2015 17:34:55 GMT -6
@jeffcross I think they can accommodate you. Classic Mode: Classic Mode. This is a cool one, especially if you've been playing action platformers since controllers had two buttons: In Classic Mode, existing assets and screens from the game will be rearranged linearly, to reward timing and survival instead of backtracking and exploration. IGA and company are still too early in the planning process to promise anything, but right now he's envisioning six punishing stages. In grand classic platformer fashion, you'll be weaker and the enemies will be stronger, and forget about saving yourself by grinding—no RPG elements here. If you've always preferred your castles punishingly difficult, straightforward, and scrolling from left to right, this is the stretch goal for you. Personally I enjoy RPG elements, levelling character, spells, items, all seem fun to me. They will have a mode for non RPG elements, I want to be able to see myself increase in strength. I can also have self imposed challenges, like speed runs, only boss kill, no spells, no items, fist weapon only runs. If they are going to restrict the RPG elements I don't want it to be forced on me, I can always make the game harder for myself anyway. I actually hate the classic mode idea.. those games were too hard and frustrating. I think people are getting me all wrong I LIKE THE RPG ELEMENT what I don't like is becoming too powerful in the game when I farm for Item. I want to see how the community would work around this (as if they were designing it), like suggestions or other games they've played where this is not a problem.
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