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Post by lod7 on Mar 4, 2016 7:47:30 GMT -6
I think there should be a thread where people can post what they disagree on with the community. No arguments, just posts of what they feel does not suit the game in their opinion.
The reason being is so it can be organized and looked at by people like our community manager who can quickly gloss over small problems that the minority might spot that the community did not. I mean it is rather strange that not even half of the backers joined this forum so this community is by no means the full voice for the game.
To post:
1. Bring your opinions of the current state of the game.
2. provide a reason for it, even if it is something of a "gut feeling" state it.
Example: I for one did not know what exactly was "wrong" with the very first shader released but my gut feeling said "I did not like it". Then Iga made Shader 3 and answered all the feelings I could not put words to.
3. Provide examples of what you think other games did better then the current state of Bloodstained. Why the community consensus might be steering the team away from a "good" idea or might be influencing the team in a "bad" way.
Final note the terms for what's good and what's bad is strictly on the poster that defines them do not take it personally and post a reply countering their argument this is what they feel. This is for the game first and foremost. Our community manager Mana, hopefully will cherry pick some of these posts to show the team to enhance what they already feel the community is doing right or think of something totally new that they may never have thought of if it weren't for these minority opinions.
I don't know if this has has been done before but maybe we can start by annonymising the posters to most of the community except for the community manager and forum staff. This way people would not feel shunned or ashamed about their differing opinions.
If all this just sounds like a bad idea. I give permission to the forum staff to just delete all this. Have a good day guys.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Mar 4, 2016 8:26:01 GMT -6
Okay, so let me get this straight. You want a thread where no discussion happens, and opinions go unchallenged, so that... what? I can't think of a reason for a thread like this that doesn't boil down to superiority complexes and special snowflake syndrome. It hinges on the idea that somehow your opinion is more important than anyone else's, and that this game could be so much better if the developers would listen you instead of all those other plebs.
Every instance where input has been solicited has been open to public discussion. Anyone who wants their input heard has the opportunity. And it's not like there's no dissent going on. In the recent shader polling, people spoke out for all offered options. Yeah, there were more people in favor of C3B3 in discussion, but the minority opinion had it's day in court as it were.
We have a suggestions forum if you want to make a specific suggestion. We have a general forum if you want to just bring up a less focused discussion about the game. Anyone can make a topic on either. I see no benefit to a non-discussion forum or topic on a board dedicated to the discussion of this game.
Now, that said.
I could see the benefit of a chronicle of sorts. Someone taking some of the talking points in these discussion - particularly the ones involving updates and solicited input like the current suggestion poll - and condensing them into a compact format consisting of the various points raised by different users regardless of how strongly supported by the rest of the community. It could serve as a map of the community's involvement with the developers in a format that would be much more efficient to read - both by the community and the developers - than digging through every single thread. This would probably be better done as a wiki than a forum post though, mostly because that would make it less prone to stagnating if the person who originally posted leaves the community for whatever reason.
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 4, 2016 8:28:38 GMT -6
If you want to express something specific and want it to be directed to Mana instead of the whole community send her a PM. If you want to find those other minority opinions that agree with you just make a thread in the appropriate board it applies to and some will agree and some won't.
The vocal few and the silent masses... It all comes down to IGA and the game he is making. We are very fortunate to have Mana here on the forums, and she is with IGA all the time. You can reach her with a PM, or her email is listed in her profile. If instead you want to reach Fangamer, the Kickstarter page has a spot you can message the "creator" of the Kickstarter. I think Steve sees those first, but I'm sure he can route things properly and get you a response. You can reach Steve here on the Forums with a PM or his email is also listed in his profile.
If it's something that is only forum related you can send me a PM if you want. I'm always available and you can get a quick response. I'm not an official member of team IGA, but I can help get you to the right person or maybe direct you to some info that might help.
I might not understand fully why you feel such a catch all thread would be needed, but it sounds Ike something that would get flooded with opinions. You can start up something like that if you like, but I hope it remains respectful to other members.
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Post by Astaroth on Mar 4, 2016 12:36:27 GMT -6
Ive found a lot of the discussions have been fairly interesting from all sides, i think a no discussion dumping ground for opinion loses a lot in the way of actually helping refine ideas, and some ideas could be awesome and with a bit of tweaking may still not fit into the current game, but could bloom into a really great idea for future games, so dont get discouraged if youre not in the majority, your posts arent going to disappear and just because they dont get used now doesnt render it invalid, though having a wiki where all the different sides for each topic have been condensed into an easily scannable overview with links to the full discussions is a good idea if a bit daunting in scope
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 4, 2016 12:48:46 GMT -6
A wiki would be great, and it's possible that when our contract with Forums.net expires we can export our forum database to a system that has a wiki built in. All our log ins would work seamlessly throughout the website and the wiki wouldn't be over run by ads like other game wiki places.
I tried talking with the person who made the Wikipedia Bloodstained page, but they aren't fun to work with and have strict policies I don't wish to conform to.
When Bloodstained has a dedicated web hosting server service that includes an official website outside of Kickstarter and we export our forum database there are many awesome things that could be implemented.
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Post by thrashinuva on Mar 4, 2016 16:17:20 GMT -6
I'd be cool with a safe space, though I don't have any opinions I'm afraid of expressing, so idk.
Also yes, plz, Xmike.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Mar 4, 2016 17:44:49 GMT -6
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Post by Goobsausage on Mar 4, 2016 19:10:12 GMT -6
I feel the real issue isn't people disagreeing, but rather, people being jerks about it.
A while back, I gave a suggestion I didn't feel was popular but thought was worth bringing up. Someone else didn't like it, I tried offering solutions based on what he said and felt might accommodate both of our personality types, and he acted like a baby about it and shut down everything I offered. Eventually I realized "Wait, my idea isn't bad. This guy is either deliberately trolling me, or he really is that dumb and rude. Either way, I don't need his approval."
Good ideas involve compromise, but if someone is being disrespectful, dumb, or personally attacks you over suggestions you feel are worth bringing up, it's better to not respond or give them attention.
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Post by ghaleon on Mar 4, 2016 19:56:33 GMT -6
Whenever I have an opinion that I feel like nobody else seems to share/express, I anticipate a comment...oftentimes the thread dies silent and I get sad.
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Mar 4, 2016 20:07:14 GMT -6
Opinions should lead to discussion, but the right to have an opinion would require acknowledging the basic humanity of the one holding it. I mean, if a person's a dick about challenging my opinions, I just read in between the lines with what they are trying to say/they're main point and offer counterargument. I don't really continue arguing because that's not really my style. To me that sort of thing just becomes the tale of the unstoppable force and the immovable object, a complete exercise in futility. That's doubly so on the internet. I've seen it time and again and in my younger years I even participated. Not the best idea.
I'm not saying don't argue and I am not against debate, do whatever you want, I'm saying for every ongoing argument I see it goes nowhere pretty quickly.
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Post by Haruka on Mar 5, 2016 3:48:33 GMT -6
I tried talking with the person who made the Wikipedia Bloodstained page, but they aren't fun to work with and have strict policies I don't wish to conform to. I hope you weren't talking about me... (I'm one of the adminds from the Bloodstained wiki). I'm actually a lot of fun to work with. You can ask my left or right puppet if you don't believe me! Anyway, although it's probably not really like the idea you're proposing, I think it would be interesting to document the feedback that end up influencing the game on the wiki. That would offer very interesting insight into the development process that you almost never get with other games. If you treat Bloodstained as a historical subject, this forum would be a pretty valuable source, and I made a special effort from the beginning to put all the sources that relate to Bloodstained in one big index. |
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Post by Redogan on Mar 5, 2016 7:52:31 GMT -6
I can understand why TC wants a minority opinion thread. Sometimes, even if you can't make a change, you want people to understand that the popular opinion is not shared universally.
With the recent shader decision, I felt like I needed to defend the character 1 shader. I had a few back-and-forths with various members here about the shaders. It's frustrating when your opinion does not mesh with the hive mind. In those cases, if you don't have pro skills at arguing your side and defending it, then you end up being shutdown, dismissed and told to just accept what you cannot change.
This is the biggest problem I have found with being part of a crowd-funded project. If the hive mind doesn't like it, then nothing you say or do can change that train's trajectory--even if you have the best argumentative defense set up before hand. The very nature of this kind of project asks for the hive mind's opinion (via feedback and surveys). And that should scare anyone who cares deeply about this project.
So, with a minority opinion thread, people can at least go on record stating that they are not part of the hive mind. And that is something considering that otherwise their opinions just fade away. Also, the people reading the minority opinion thread are probably those that are like-minded and have branched off from the hive mind on some topic or another.
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 5, 2016 8:18:24 GMT -6
I tried talking with the person who made the Wikipedia Bloodstained page, but they aren't fun to work with and have strict policies I don't wish to conform to. I hope you weren't talking about me... (I'm one of the adminds from the Bloodstained wiki). I'm actually a lot of fun to work with. You can ask my left or right puppet if you don't believe me! Anyway, although it's probably not really like the idea you're proposing, I think it would be interesting to document the feedback that end up influencing the game on the wiki. That would offer very interesting insight into the development process that you almost never get with other games. If you treat Bloodstained as a historical subject, this forum would be a pretty valuable source, and I made a special effort from the beginning to put all the sources that relate to Bloodstained in one big index. I agree and that's the direction I wanted to go with Wikipedia. Are you "Thel337gamer"? |
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Post by jboogieg on Mar 5, 2016 10:31:17 GMT -6
I can understand why TC wants a minority opinion thread. Sometimes, even if you can't make a change, you want people to understand that the popular opinion is not shared universally. With the recent shader decision, I felt like I needed to defend the character 1 shader. I had a few back-and-forths with various members here about the shaders. It's frustrating when your opinion does not mesh with the hive mind. In those cases, if you don't have pro skills at arguing your side and defending it, then you end up being shutdown, dismissed and told to just accept what you cannot change. This is the biggest problem I have found with being part of a crowd-funded project. If the hive mind doesn't like it, then nothing you say or do can change that train's trajectory--even if you have the best argumentative defense set up before hand. The very nature of this kind of project asks for the hive mind's opinion (via feedback and surveys). And that should scare anyone who cares deeply about this project. So, with a minority opinion thread, people can at least go on record stating that they are not part of the hive mind. And that is something considering that otherwise their opinions just fade away. Also, the people reading the minority opinion thread are probably those that are like-minded and have branched off from the hive mind on some topic or another. Well, my question to you would be: what exactly do you mean by hive mind? Because I had my preference but that doesn't mean I had it because I wanted to ride the wave of acceptance. Any kind of polls will have people fall on various sides. If anybody actually shut down you discussing it then that should be called out and I believe XombieMike would take care of it. But 'losing' an discussion doesn't mean you did anything wrong or that there *was* anything wrong. This is why I never take polls personally: there's always a chance that my choice won't be picked and I know that it not being picked isn't an attack on me or what I like. |
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Post by Redogan on Mar 5, 2016 10:45:08 GMT -6
Mostly, by hive mind I mean the opinion of the masses. (Often times the hive mind doesn't want to acknowledge any other opinions.) And some people do jump on the bandwagon just to fit in. Others take their time and don't weigh in until they've thought about it quite a bit.
Losing a discussion shouldn't mean anything, but it can also leave people feeling let down and feeling like no one understands.
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Post by lod7 on Mar 6, 2016 3:54:43 GMT -6
I can understand why TC wants a minority opinion thread. Sometimes, even if you can't make a change, you want people to understand that the popular opinion is not shared universally. With the recent shader decision, I felt like I needed to defend the character 1 shader. I had a few back-and-forths with various members here about the shaders. It's frustrating when your opinion does not mesh with the hive mind. In those cases, if you don't have pro skills at arguing your side and defending it, then you end up being shutdown, dismissed and told to just accept what you cannot change. This is the biggest problem I have found with being part of a crowd-funded project. If the hive mind doesn't like it, then nothing you say or do can change that train's trajectory--even if you have the best argumentative defense set up before hand. The very nature of this kind of project asks for the hive mind's opinion (via feedback and surveys). And that should scare anyone who cares deeply about this project. So, with a minority opinion thread, people can at least go on record stating that they are not part of the hive mind. And that is something considering that otherwise their opinions just fade away. Also, the people reading the minority opinion thread are probably those that are like-minded and have branched off from the hive mind on some topic or another. This is precisely why I want a thread like this. It was never meant to challenge the popular opinion just merely a place to kind of jot down the unpopular opinions. Because unless you are a dedicated forum user you won't be able to read everything. Imagine having someone discuss something and have 3-4 people quote said person about the pros of the popular opinion. Then the person just gets hushed away. A minority thread would show that unlike minded people still have the games best interest at heart but could express their ideas without being shutdown by the "hive mind". This is more so for the benefit of infrequent forum users such as myself so that I may read these opinions and either strengthen my stance on my own or have my opinion be challenged in a way I never would have thought of. For example I myself am a full supporter of C3 B3. Was blown away by it from the start and still am. But another forum user said that C1 had a more realistic look to it that appealed to them more then the cel-shaded look I preferred. Although I did not agree with that it made me really think of why I liked my choice. It was vibrant and colourful yet gothic and mysterious. It was the image of fantasy, a promise of escaping realism for something more. All this from one person's point of view that they wanted a more realistic style over the cartoony colour style. I did not have to argue with the person or even have to type a response. He/she was set in his/her ways and I with my own. But because of this person it made me appreciate just why exactly I loved my choice. Not just a "I preferred this" over the other choices moment. |
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Post by LordKaiser on Mar 6, 2016 20:15:53 GMT -6
If you don't want to discuss ideas then you can send them by e-mail because what's the point of watching something on a forum that you can't disagree with or challenge? Also you can use those websites where you can write your own blogs as well so there's many options.
Now there's something I need to know and is if this forum have non backers on it because I thought this was a backers only place now that I see you talking about other people forums. We may need another website forum for non backers as well so their ideas don't mix up with the people who backed the project.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Mar 6, 2016 20:56:22 GMT -6
It's not the Bloodstained Backer Forums, it's the Bloodstained Fan Forums, and I see no reason to exclude people from the conversation just because they came in late. The polls on this site are for the community. When IGA wanted backer input on the shaders, we were all sent e-mails. That's where the separation lies.
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Post by zoned87 on Mar 7, 2016 1:35:00 GMT -6
I don't see anything wrong with the way things are going at this point and all the big issues have been put up for public vote. It is my belief perhaps a "minority opinion" that some people just look for things to complain about.
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Post by XombieMike on Mar 7, 2016 6:31:59 GMT -6
It's not the Bloodstained Backer Forums, it's the Bloodstained Fan Forums, and I see no reason to exclude people from the conversation just because they came in late. The polls on this site are for the community. When IGA wanted backer input on the shaders, we were all sent e-mails. That's where the separation lies. Emails reach all backers, however the updates are public and contain links to surveys. So far, I think the public could contribute to the surveys in the updates. These forums can have a board that is password protected if the official staff ever wanted to make use of that. They would just have to email out the password. You can even hide a board from certain groups or make them visible to certain people. |
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