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Post by Dan G. on Dec 5, 2015 16:32:09 GMT -6
For those talking about cell shaded or gritty, check this out. I just made the edges of everything black. What do you think?  Does it look more SotN?   Back on my other ...guest account but yeah I saw someone did that of the close up of Miriam. It does in fact look better. It gives it a more drawn look and takes away the .. THIS IS A 3d GAME LOOK. While i'd still suggest for them to give it less of a tilt, I think giving it a hard edged black look around the lines gives it more of a drawn aesthetic. Thanks! Maybe suggest that to them? i have a feeling if they do a cell shaded shader that would help in that regard already but who knows! |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 5, 2015 16:37:05 GMT -6
Re: the discussion about the prototype, it was specifically created as an animation sample (I think we mentioned that in the backer update, but I might not have.) The backgrounds in the video, so far as I can tell, are nothing more or less than the flat concept art that was available at the time. The feedback about the viewing angle, etc., is really interesting; we'll be passing it on to IGA along with everything else. Related note: As one of the people who's tasked with reading every bit of feedback, summarizing it, and passing it along to the dev team, I wanted to thank you guys for just how thoughtful and civil all the feedback (positive, negative, and neutral) has been. I've never seen anything like it on a Kickstarter project of this size, and it's really impressed me. Thanks Dan, I appreciate it. ( It's Dan from twitter btw) Yeah, I hope none of the negatives come off in the wrong light. I'm very excited and I know they're all working very hard on this. If there's any comments to pass along, i'd definitely suggest making it less tilted to give it a more 2d look ( just like you mentioned) and the pics posted in this page that has the black outlines around the environments and characters really helps make it a bit more gritty and drawn looking. That might be a good avenue to head with one of the other two shaders. Also the more gothic the artstyle the better. This isn't on the handhelds anymore, time to bring back that darker vibe. Is there an evil smiley? I would place it right after that comment. Thanks! |
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Post by maedhros on Dec 5, 2015 17:09:38 GMT -6
2.5D can mean different things, certainly. Maybe people were expecting something like...Strider 2 on PS1? Characters are 2D sprites, everything else 3D. That can look kind of...mismatched, probably especially now in this generation, but I'd have been fine with that lol. Just from reading this thread, the thought of a Mighty no. 9: 'Vania edition snuck into my head and that is really, really not what I want to be looking at.  IGA knows what's he doing/trying to achieve, and knows the feel of his games better than anyone, obviously. Looking forward to seeing how they achieve this. No, it's not. 2.5D is always 2D gameplay, 3D graphics/models/etc. |
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Post by Fangamer Steve on Dec 5, 2015 17:31:40 GMT -6
First: some people seems lost on kickstarter comments and some here, since day 1 we all knew it wouldn't be a 2D game (sprite based), there are serveral reasons for that most obvious their skills are into unreal engine, so... i always expected it full 3D and that's not a problem. About the screenshots, i am not sure if we should discuss the graphics style yet (beyond shader i mean), that was not the point here, also i don't feel like i can judge it from a single room screenshot, i need to see her walking on a corridor to debate about how the graphics feels and also on different room archictectures. And no i never spected something near a true sprite-based game, cut off the comparison with GGX, they are another team and have pretty different skills, what if inti creates has no experience with that kind of graphics, do you guys really want them to 'lose' time learning it and risk the game graphics on a completely new way to do graphics? it seems pretty risky. Also it still pretty earlier you cannot just assume the rooms will have that style, nobody said it. However as it is now i can imagine her walking around with that 3D-ish style with no problem, it seems fine, but as i stated we need to see other rooms and real movement to say anything. Well at least i guess it is good backers and fans are saying what they want and what they don't, it may helps the developers to have a better idea of what people expect. Well IGA mentioned GGXrd so he is now responsible. And yes I want them to take their time to learn the needed skills and I want Inti Creates to watch the GDC videos from other developers. They have a lot to gain if they can fulfill hard expectations as it will give them a significant boost. Not only this game will be compared to GGXrd but also from titles that are 2D 1/2 regardless of engine like Ubisoft's Rayman Legends or Wayfoward's Shantae 1/2 Genie Hero. This is a hard situation for inti Creates but they have to do something about it. Here’s the relevant quote from the FAQs which is in regards to whether or not a 2.5D game can provide a classic 2D experience: Just to help temper expectations, the team is not saying they’re going to copy Strider or Guilty Gear’s shader techniques; they’re saying that games like Strider and Guilty Gear are proven examples of 2.5D (3D graphics with 2D gameplay) being used to create an aesthetically pleasing and genuine 2D experience, and IGA would like Bloodstained to also deliver the experience of a classic 2D game, despite it using 3D graphics. |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 5, 2015 17:43:33 GMT -6
Well IGA mentioned GGXrd so he is now responsible. And yes I want them to take their time to learn the needed skills and I want Inti Creates to watch the GDC videos from other developers. They have a lot to gain if they can fulfill hard expectations as it will give them a significant boost. Not only this game will be compared to GGXrd but also from titles that are 2D 1/2 regardless of engine like Ubisoft's Rayman Legends or Wayfoward's Shantae 1/2 Genie Hero. This is a hard situation for inti Creates but they have to do something about it. Here’s the relevant quote from the FAQs which is in regards to whether or not a 2.5D game can provide a classic 2D experience: Just to help temper expectations, the team is not saying they’re going to copy Strider or Guilty Gear’s shader techniques; they’re saying that games like Strider and Guilty Gear are proven examples of 2.5D (3D graphics with 2D gameplay) being used to create an aesthetically pleasing and genuine 2D experience, and IGA would like Bloodstained to also deliver the experience of a classic 2D game, despite it using 3D graphics. I want to be clear with the above posts. I AM NOT EXPECTING GUILTY GEAR TYPE VISUALS and never expected that. I think it's crazy for anyone to expect that because those are visuals based around a fighting game. Not a large scale game like this. I was merely saying that if the prototype simply used the concept art for the backgrounds, then why not do it that way? It made it look very 2d, and it looked amazing. I say work from that if anything.... It's more beneficial for the artstyle of the game which is the most important part, and you lose some of the soul when you build out big polygonal blocky environments. Unless you go for environments that are much more realistic looking. I also was referring to the tilt saying that in the prototype it seemed to have less of a tilt which gave it a more 2d look. I'm not expecting this to be a 2d game but it was mentioned that the goal is to get it to look as close to 2d as possible. So, I'm giving opinions on how that can possibly be achieved better... I don't think anyone here is expecting this to be a 2d game, or have the graphics of a fighter game. Whether the topic of this thread is early or not ( better sooner rather than later when its too late to make changes) it's goal is to help assist on trying to achieve the vision of capturing the 2d spirit in the 2.5d space. I think it's uber important for the tone of the visuals to take on a more gritty, realistic look. Not the visuals themselves but the look of the environments, and I think the prototype did that pretty well. So GAME ON PEOPLE! |
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Post by maedhros on Dec 5, 2015 18:00:47 GMT -6
They should try to go for a cartoon look, like Indivisible is doing.
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Apollonian
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[TI2]Drink stale wine to your heart's delight
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Post by Apollonian on Dec 5, 2015 18:06:25 GMT -6
I said that in all honesty, the look of their prototype background wise is a very good look for this game. It's like the concept art was posted right into the game... how is that a bad thing? The concept art is beautiful and it's 2d.... I completely agree, I thought that looked stunning. I assume it was hard for them to do or took a lot of time. |
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Post by Valtiel on Dec 5, 2015 18:32:17 GMT -6
I'd prefer if they had no vanishing point. For instance, in SotN we only see the floor where it intersects with the camera/screen. We don't see the floor stretching into the background like we do in the Bloodstained images.
Since Bloodstained is rendered in 3D they'd have to use stuff like forshortening like Guilty Gear Xrd did, but I think it would be much better. That's my only complaint. Otherwise I'm thrilled with the way it looks so far considering how early into development the game is.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 5, 2015 18:36:37 GMT -6
I'd prefer if they had no vanishing point. For instance, in SotN we only see the floor where it intersects with the camera/screen. We don't see the floor stretching into the background like we do in the Bloodstained images. Since Bloodstained is rendered in 3D they'd have to use stuff like forshortening like Guilty Gear Xrd did, but I think it would be much better. That's my only complaint. Otherwise I'm thrilled with the way it looks so far considering how early into development the game is. Yeah the tilt is one thing that is causing a few of the issues in terms of NOT looking like 2d. |
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Ciel
Executor of the Church
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じーっ
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Post by Ciel on Dec 5, 2015 18:50:35 GMT -6
Here is another of shader one but with the colors of 2 and I changed the crystals to look less like a tattoo. *cute miriam closeup* Hey, your change was awesome, now the crystal is more "crystal" than something else. I don't think it's supposed to be that flat, I mean, it's a curse c'mon. The point others made about the angle is valid. They should try something more flat (not totally flat though, just a little bit to look more '2D'), depth is good and all but this isn't a 3D game... unless they want to do something like some levels in those new marios, when the camera does a turn to change the perspective (although I don't see this working in a metroidvania). |
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Post by Valtiel on Dec 5, 2015 19:45:56 GMT -6
Here is another of shader one but with the colors of 2 and I changed the crystals to look less like a tattoo. *image* I agree with Ciel, the crystals look much better there. If they can go for something like that, and maybe even have them reflect light a bit, it would be perfect. |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 5, 2015 21:44:44 GMT -6
Hey, XombieMike Can you make that black hard edged look with the first shader? I want to see how that looks. I prefer that look but I'd like a more sharper look to it. |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 6, 2015 0:38:50 GMT -6
Hey, XombieMike Can you make that black hard edged look with the first shader? I want to see how that looks. I prefer that look but I'd like a more sharper look to it. Sure:  |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 6, 2015 0:55:11 GMT -6
Hey, XombieMike Can you make that black hard edged look with the first shader? I want to see how that looks. I prefer that look but I'd like a more sharper look to it. Sure: Thanks! This actually confirms my two problems with the current visuals. By applying those outlined effects it gives the textures a more defined look which in the present state look too simple and not defined. Also, it gives ecerything a more drawing look which is desired since the goal is to make it 2d as possible. Only thing to add by that point is less of a tilt to the environments and you'd have yourself a great starting point! Love the look of that thanks! |
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Dec 6, 2015 4:15:40 GMT -6
Thanks! This actually confirms my two problems with the current visuals. By applying those outlined effects it gives the textures a more defined look which in the present state look too simple and not defined. Also, it gives everything a more drawing look which is desired since the goal is to make it 2d as possible. Only thing to add by that point is less of a tilt to the environments and you'd have yourself a great starting point! Love the look of that thanks! So I guess we can both agree that some form of cel-shading is in order. I originally said it'd only be needed to make the facial features of characters pop more, but I guess some outlines for the environment wouldn't hurt either. |
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Post by wavetraxx on Dec 6, 2015 5:06:33 GMT -6
I think its need some light arrows, possible some little depth of field. Like this one... ?  |
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Dec 6, 2015 5:35:39 GMT -6
I think its need some light arrows, possible some little depth of field. Like this one... ? I DO like that, yeah. Maybe not as much depth of field, but it certainly helps make the dark corners darker and the light areas around sources of light stand out more, which is one of the things I want to see more of. |
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Post by qaantar on Dec 6, 2015 6:14:06 GMT -6
Interesting.... some of this discussion is reminding me of the old (?) Diablo III controversy over the color palette and appearance.
If you've never seen the developer's response to the criticism -- basically an instructional on why something that looks better may not play better -- I recommend tracking it down, as it provides some interesting insight.
I was surprised how much the second shader eliminated the architectural details on the background -- didn't even notice it until Xombiemike pointed it out.
By the way, nice touch on making the roses black (; haha...
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 6, 2015 8:37:58 GMT -6
Interesting.... some of this discussion is reminding me of the old (?) Diablo III controversy over the color palette and appearance. If you've never seen the developer's response to the criticism -- basically an instructional on why something that looks better may not play better -- I recommend tracking it down, as it provides some interesting insight. I was surprised how much the second shader eliminated the architectural details on the background -- didn't even notice it until Xombiemike pointed it out. By the way, nice touch on making the roses black (; haha... Well there's gotta be a way to make it look as good as it can and still play well. That's the goal. I know we are only deciding shaders but the textures have a very simple blocky look to them. That's whats making me think of Mighty No 9. That black outline thing XombieMike did actually helped out and made it look grittier. However, I'm sure just more detailed textures would alleviate that on it's own. |
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 6, 2015 9:14:47 GMT -6
qaantar the roses turning black wasn't on purpose. Because they aren't there in shader 2 and I'm using shader 2 as a color layer, it recolors them like the wall behind them. It was a cool byproduct though.
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