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Post by ghaleon on Sept 10, 2015 2:32:55 GMT -6
Please don't just answer your opinion on the subject title alone, because I feel many people have automated responses in this regard, and I'm always right (kidding).
Seriously though, what I want to ask is more complicated than what you can fit in 1 line.
First off, I just want to say that I've been a gamer since the Atari, and when the NES came out, it was high tech for me. I got that too, and by then I was a nintendo fanboy ( I was like 6-8 or something, sue me), and then the sega genesis, and the snes, and and and... Basically when the Playstation, n64, saturn, whatever were things, I was one of the FEW (at the time) who was outspoken about how graphics aren't everything, and that 3d is not better (back then it was god awful ugly imo, seriously.. I couldn't take 3d seriously until ps2 time)...But now I don't think 3d is the devil, and I actually love lament of innocence and curse of darkness. I like them even MORE than most of the 2d castlevanias.. heck curse of darkness might even be my #1 fave (if the dungeon design wasn't copy paste bland featureless room over and over and over, it certainly would be)...but I still don't think 3d is better, it's just an option.. like turn based or real time strategy.
that being said I want people to honestly think, regardless of if they have typically preferred 2d or 3d castlevanias... if they think 2d or 3d is really that important to them... Is a game genre really unable to be good as one over the other (other than ones that obviously cater to one like first person shooters in 3d or non-combat platformers in 2d).
What do you think 2.5d is? I see many people who seem to act like it's some kind of 'lesser 2d'...and frankly I think that's a silly opinion. to me 2.5d is a 2d game style that has noticeable 3d elements (and small amounts of them at that typically), and often not by choice or gameplay design, but just out of modern computer game engines and technology. Many people may not realize but countless modern '2d' games are actually in fact in 3d.. they just 'paint' really flat-ish rectangles that actually have 3 dimensions lined up on the screen so that they appear 2d... But often background elements or whatever are blatantly 3d, which I fail to see as something bad since even praised 2d games attempt to replicate a 3d background by... like.. having it 'behind' the foreground, thereby giving a depth.. not to mention having multiple portions of it scaling at different speeds, etc.
I'm not saying I prefer 3d now, or think 2.5d > 2.0d.. I think they're all equal, and I want to understand why people may think otherwise beforejust assuming they are being stubborn about the past or something.
I also want to ask, castlevania has had both 2d and 3d games before. But I want to know how they feel if they had a new game that was good for all intents and purposes... but was like the modern Ys games.. which if you don't know is kinda like Zelda a link to the past with a top-downish view, but more 3d, just look at origin or oath of felghana or something to see what I mean... I think that would also be cool and interesting to see in a castlevania game (but I wont ask for it because the current styles work for me too).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 7:42:52 GMT -6
I love 'em all.
I do wish third person 3D games had a way to present tight, closed spaces with vertical climbs properly.
Also, +1 for Ys.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Sept 10, 2015 8:16:39 GMT -6
My situation was very similar to yours. I didn't take to 3D until well into the PS2 days. I didn't play FF7 because it betrayed me and went 3D...and didn't actually go back and play it until after FFX. I think I skipped the N64 as a whole because most all of the games were 3D. I was never a fanboy to one company/system, though. I did like Capcom and Konami a lot.
I'm not as resistant to 3D now, but I still prefer two dimensions. Can the Igavania genre be good in 3D? Yes, in the same way that Curse of Darkness was good, as you have experienced, but it can't have the same level of detail, secrets and artwork that a 2D game like SotN has without there being a LOT OF WORK done. Imagine if all those bland, copied hallways in LoI and CoD were populated with 3D models of all the background items/scenery that were in SotN or a DS game. It would be essentially like if you had a larger than life castle-sized Hunter's Workshop in Bloodborne, which in today's graphical fidelity, would probably take years to fill out with detail.
Now, part of this detail I associate with 2D games is filled out by my own imagination...we subconsiously fill the gaps of what we don't or can't see with what's likely there. The expanse of a background in a 2D stage can be pondered as an intriguing or mysterious thing. Windows/the night sky/a storm or whatever is always visible because you're looking at everything to the side, allowing the admiration of that atmosphere. In a third person 3D game, you're looking down at the guy and his surroundings. There's very little left to imagine or ponder. You're probably in a big area of similar textures and around you might be windows you can't really see out of and a ceiling above you. The intrigue kind of dwindles.
In a way, it's a less is more situation, but in another way 2D actually does really show more. Anyway, for a lot of genres, 3D would be preferable and actually objectively better, like if you're trying to simulate any real thing at all like shooting, sports, the experience of exploring a real city with people in it, a completely outdoors exploration, etc.
For Castlevania though, and specifically an Iga game, 2D or 2.5 is just a right fit. Hopefully, the .5 can be used to show more along the lines of what I've mentioned. I think these are the sorts of things they'll be thinking about as well.
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Post by Dan G. on Sept 10, 2015 9:13:50 GMT -6
2.5 just isn't the same as 2d for me. You can get a lot of details out of 2d that for some reason never happen in 2.5d. Look at all the beautiful animations that come with 2d gaming. Look at Alucard, it's amazing what little details they got into the animations. With 2.5d for whatever reason a lot of the times it comes off looking cold in comparison. Having said that, they did a good job imitating the LOOK of a 2d game with the sample animation ( even though i didn't like her run animation or her attack animation/jump animations) The look was spot on though.
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Post by Maker on Sept 10, 2015 14:41:49 GMT -6
It all comes down to presentation and gameplay. I play a lot, and I do mean a LOT of Dark Souls and other full on 3d games which arguably are their own genre. Castlevania esque games in 3d don't bother me per say if they are done in the same spirit the original games are. But more often than not they become "devil may cry" clones in the process. This is where a lot of that vitrol comes from.
the 2d side of thing has advantages that the other two do not as well. Primarily simplicity of character animation withing the actual "show this at X time" part. Meanwhile the art time that goes into 2d is much larger than the art time in a 3d model due strictly to this exact change. Guilty Gear Xrd is a great example of the blended "2.5d" style. Seriously go youtube that game right now and tell me it doesn't look 2d. But its done with 3d models in Unreal Engine 3.
As for some mechanics I think this is where 2.5d shines. You can get both worlds worth of mechanics into a single game.
To be fair though some of the bias you see comes from expectation, I expect Dark Souls to be 3d, while I expect Castlevania for example to be 2d. I know its not a great comparison but the expectations of some things are there for a reason. In Bloodstained's case, it is going to get the best of both worlds from being a 2.5d game. The time is right for dev's willing to go this route when creating work such as this.
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Post by Motoko on Sept 10, 2015 17:26:16 GMT -6
I have no preference, as long as the game utilizes it properly.
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Post by Thomas on Sept 10, 2015 20:27:48 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure there is already a topic about this somewhere on the forums, but I'm too lazy to look for it. Here's the bottom line, you are mixing opinion with fact.
You ask the question "what is 2.5D". By definition 2.5D refers to a game that is rendered in 3D but is confined to 2D gameplay. Now in reality that can mean a lot of things including how the camera is oriented and the scene is displayed (orthographic vs perspective) to how the art style is implemented (hand drawn vs modeled/textured).
What you seem to really be asking is which do people prefer, hand drawn pixel art rendered orthographically or 3D art rendered in perspective. Neither of these have anything to do with gameplay.
My personal opinion is that good art needs to accompany good design and that both styles have merit. There are a lot of newer 3D sidescrollers that have fantastic art and animation that can easily stand with the classics. Just look at Ori and the Blind Forest for example.
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Post by nekurors on Sept 10, 2015 21:43:49 GMT -6
I think of that as different genres, not like 3D is the sucessor of the 2D. I mean certain types of gameplay can only happen on a 2D environment while others only works on a 3D universe, so they are like top level genre of games. Certain gameplay style cannot be transfered to a 3D world and vice-versa, that means i believe 2D games will never be "outdated", they are just a game genre.
About the "2.5D", since that word was just created the meaning depends on how you see it, i don't like to use it since doesn't sound accurate. It feels strange to call fully 3D games (models + background) as 2.5D just because the movement is locked in 2 dimensions.
Anyway i like all the genres (2D, 2.5D and 3D), just depend of the game itself. But i still have a hard time to imagine a metroidvania successfully ported to a 3D world keeping the key mechanics, i believe it is possible but hard, it seems we will need to innovate a lot to do such a thing.
Finally i should say that i still prefer the true 2D sprite-based metroidvanias, i don't know why the way the things are draw on the screen seems different and unique. But i know the engines out there makes us abandon that paradigm since you mastering it is far more productive, you can still lock the movement and do "2D" games with 3D polygons plus a fully 3D game plus these engines are far more needed in the game market. Sprite-based games are likely to be used most by indies and small companies.
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Post by Nomak on Sept 11, 2015 15:51:37 GMT -6
Doesn't really matter which as can be seen on games such as SotN, Super Metroid, Super Contra and so many great titles out there that are in 2D. Devil May Cry, God of War, Conquer, Berserk all 3D awesome games. As far as 2.5D goes isn't that what most platformers are based on today? At the end of the day it's the skill of the programmers that counts plus the willingness and budget to create something great goes a long way. No need for a wall of text to relay a general thought. With that said, Bloodstained has the general talent plus the budget to go along with it.
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Post by gunlord500 on Sept 11, 2015 21:19:54 GMT -6
Like other folks here, I don't really have a preference as long as it's done well. That's the most important thing  |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Sept 12, 2015 9:09:17 GMT -6
You couldn't force me to choose between the 3. They're all fine.
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Post by 緋月エリ on Sept 13, 2015 0:20:27 GMT -6
It doesn't matter what kind of graphics it is, the game is good as long as it has an involved story line and smooth gameplay that supports it, which I am sure that Bloodstained will contain both of those.
Of course, there will always be exceptions when game graphics just can't...
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Post by ghaleon on Sept 13, 2015 0:48:14 GMT -6
Seems like most people are like me, where they don't really care in of itself. I was curious because I've seen several people comment with a regretful tone "why does bloodstained have to be 2.5d?".
Incidentally, I wasn't mixing facts with opinion. I was just stating my opinions/personal tastes around the established facts.
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Post by Apollonian on Sept 13, 2015 5:54:45 GMT -6
It doesn't matter what kind of graphics it is, the game is good as long as it has an involved story line and smooth gameplay that supports it, which I am sure that Bloodstained will contain both of those. Of course, there will always be exceptions when game graphics just can't... Philips cdi zelda...I wonder how many people quit gaming after playing that gem. lol |
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Post by Dan G. on Sept 14, 2015 10:32:51 GMT -6
Seems like most people are like me, where they don't really care in of itself. I was curious because I've seen several people comment with a regretful tone "why does bloodstained have to be 2.5d?". Incidentally, I wasn't mixing facts with opinion. I was just stating my opinions/personal tastes around the established facts. Well a pure 2d game on modern consoles would look absolutely beautiful. 2.5 can look beautiful but more often than not you can cram details into 2d that you just can't do in 2.5. Just look at all the beautiful animations in SOTN of Alucard for example. It's hard to find good comparisons to that and that game is OLD. Plus, you look at IGA's other 2.5d game and it just isn't the looker that his 2d games are. It doesn't look as good animation wise, and visually, and more often than not it's pretty drab and less vibrant. I think deep down that's why people prefer 2d, there's a BETTER chance of it looking nicer and being visually breathtaking with the developer we are talking about. However, they've proven with the test footage that they can replicate the 2d look quite well this time! |
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Post by Jango on Sept 15, 2015 14:29:54 GMT -6
Having grown up playing videogames starting with NES, for me it doesn't really get better than playing a game with great, responsive platforming. 2D or 3D, both can be great.
For me, the only reason I ever balk at 2.5d games is because they have a higher risk of feeling less responsive and having generally looser-feeling gameplay. That's not always the case though. A 2.5d game with great controls is every bit as good as a traditional 2d game. Off the top of my head, the recent Strider game is a good example of that. Gorgeous 3d art with solid 2D gameplay. Also, I loved Mirror of Fate. It had its problems and suffered from some of that looseness I mentioned, but it nailed the atmosphere and grandiose gothic scale that is essential to Castlevania. I feel like that is something that a game using 3d assets can do that is more difficult to replicate with 2d art. There were so many amazing 3d vistas in the first Lords of Shadow. Rounding a corner and being smacked in the face with the larger than life Castle in LoS1 was something I never experienced in a Castlevania before.
Which brings me to my last thought on the subject. Art direction. Gameplay and feel are musts in either medium. But good art direction and implementing your assets well, in either medium, is where the debate lives and dies. For me, the art direction was fantastic for the LoS series. Other aspects of those games were hit or miss. Modern 2d games like Ori and the Blind Forest and the games from Klei Studios are also fantastic and feel and look great. It's all about the developers ability to implement their art well. Hopefully, Inti can manage that. We'll see.
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Post by Sun of May on Sept 18, 2015 13:51:46 GMT -6
I really like 2.5D but only if done well. Keep gameplay 2d with a 2.5d environment would be the most appealing. This is all a matter of opinion though. I miss the old school 2d feel 2.5D could corrupt that nostalgic element that we are all hoping for from Bloodstained. At least, that is my take on it. I would not even mess with 3d. Leave that for FPS or MMORPG's. The market is flooded with 3d and there is nothing wrong with that and I love playing Destiny and all but I am yearning for a good 2d game. :-) |
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Post by Ghalion on Sept 18, 2015 16:23:25 GMT -6
I feel like the people who dislike 2.5d do it because of guilt by association. They see an imperfection in a 2.5d game and theybsay it was caused BY it being 2.5D when it very well may not have been.
I think people lose perspective that many 2.5d games are not developed by industry vets, and back 20 years ago, there were countless crappy 2d platformers anf such with many of the same issues people may hold against 2.5d now.
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Post by maddogg on Sept 18, 2015 16:50:57 GMT -6
I am fine with either or when it comes to 2D or 2.5D. Nowadays, certain devs have shown that it is possible to make a 2.5D look just as gorgeous as a well done 2D game. (Like someone else said, the recent strider is a good example. Same goes for the recent guilty gear).
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Post by Silver6986 on Nov 3, 2015 8:13:11 GMT -6
that being said I want people to honestly think, regardless of if they have typically preferred 2d or 3d castlevanias... if they think 2d or 3d is really that important to them... Is a game genre really unable to be good as one over the other (other than ones that obviously cater to one like first person shooters in 3d or non-combat platformers in 2d). Not completely sure how to answer in the context you gave, as I can only give an answer from where I can draw stark differences in how I feel emotionally about a game when systems are drastically changed even though it's within the same series. When I say systems, I mean to say for example (I've used this before), with what took place with the Fallout series, we have on the one hand a 2D Isometric perspective, with turn based gameplay (Fallout 1 & 2) and now we have F3, F:NV and upcoming F4 that are full 3D real time gameplay with a heavy emphasis on FPS mechanics. For me, this would work fine (I'd still prefer TB and 2D iso perspective, but could live with it if...) if Bethesda hadn't destroyed Karma, Factions, multiple companions, Perks, S.P.E.C.I.A.L, VATS (going from TB gameplay to FPS gameplay was always going to wreck this) etc. So for me, with Castlevania and what potential exists in the future for Bloodstained (which I really hope we see the birthing of a new franchise here), I really don't mind, I would be happy to see Bloodstained in full 2D or 3D so long as it 'felt' like the 2D/3D game honoured it's history and kept the charm that makes it and what everyone will remember about it years down the track (whatever that may be). I love the gameplay mechanics of both SotN and LoI/CoD, but I feel what hurts an artistic style that encapsulates a particular game and it's franchise, is when all the other things are wrecked in the process (say for example, Bethesda mainstreaming the Fallout franchise in order to keep raising sales higher with each iteration), I felt a little bit like this with the LoS series, but could write these feelings off somewhat as it is a 'reboot' and in effect, losing some of the things that feel like hallmarks of the Castlevania series doesn't seem to matter so much... I think another way of saying it is "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig" So in essence, when you say: I want to understand why people may think otherwise before just assuming they are being stubborn about the past or something. I really think it's more to do with everything else and not solely just a camera angle or the number of dimensions, but somehow that doesn't translate over in a one sentence response which is what we might typically read from others when asked this question. For what it's worth if MercurySteam were given the option back then to make a old school (as in, not a 'reboot') Castlevania with the budget they had for LoS I would've loved to have seen a LoI style (in the sense of artistic direction, both visually and musically) game with some of the mechanics and fluid gameplay from LoS, I would've been over the moon!  I also think that based on the Alpha footage and concept artwork to date we will be in for a treat and the whole argument is kinda moot (looks like classic Igavania to me so far). Silver |
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