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Post by browren on May 27, 2019 15:20:44 GMT -6
I am so glad that I did not fall for the whole "convert your game to a physical copy and sell it" bait 505 was peddling. You've completely undercut every Mac or Linux backer who wanted to get their backer money back by selling their game, effectively limiting them to a price under $50, because nobody is going to bother buying a copy with backer perks off of eBay for more than retail+$10 now. Thanks a lot.
The ironic thing is, I was one of those backers that said it'd be okay to release it "at a price that would respect the purchase the backers originally made." I guess I foolishly expected that, since I was getting a Linux copy of the game, it's only fair that people on other platforms get the entire thing. MAN was I wrong.
Anyhow, Angel-Corlux , do you see that word you used there? Purchase? What does a good company do when someone purchases something and the company can't deliver? Oh, right, right, I know, it's not a "purchase" in MY case because it's a Kickstarter, right? I made the dumb decision to back a game that ended up being published by thieves, so I guess that's on me, right?
The only Question I have is how much money 505 thinks it's going to make post-release selling backer perks as DLC, and why that won't be used to pay for fufilling your abandoned Kickstarter obligations, now that literally anyone can get backer perks. |
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Post by browren on May 27, 2019 15:28:02 GMT -6
In fact, I'll go one step further: Any DLC money that pays for backer perks ought to be considered kickstarter funds, and Linux/Mac backers should be repaid first from those funds.
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Post by Cale on May 27, 2019 18:35:41 GMT -6
Another thing that confuses me is the argument that allowing everyone to purchase backer exclusive content as DLC will curb pirating...
"I mean obviously that’s a part of it, but the chief things I was considering was making sure everyone had a safe and legitimate way to get the full game experience no matter when they find out about Bloodstained, whether that’s 5 months ago or 5 years from now, and that we were being respectful of the price backers originally paid (hence the DLC pricing).”
If people were going to pirate the game they will do it anyway. Allowing people to purchase Backer Exclusive content has nothing to do with pirating the game.
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Post by DSLevantine on May 27, 2019 19:50:40 GMT -6
Another thing that confuses me is the argument that allowing everyone to purchase backer exclusive content as DLC will curb pirating... "I mean obviously that’s a part of it, but the chief things I was considering was making sure everyone had a safe and legitimate way to get the full game experience no matter when they find out about Bloodstained, whether that’s 5 months ago or 5 years from now, and that we were being respectful of the price backers originally paid (hence the DLC pricing).” If people were going to pirate the game they will do it anyway. Allowing people to purchase Backer Exclusive content has nothing to do with pirating the game. I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? This reminds me of COTM, why a paying customer like me have to deal with steam DRM while the pirates can get the drm free version? |
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Post by browren on May 27, 2019 20:33:50 GMT -6
I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? I've already paid for the game, but I've been forced by the publisher to settle for an inferior version of the game on someone else's platform because they're greedy, and now they're undercutting the price on their work-around for not giving refunds to Linux and Mac backers too.
Why should I not get what I've already paid for when non-backers can get the things that were supposed to be exclusives?
"exclusive backer-only content" was what was stated on the Kickstarter. But hey, it's 505, they get to run roughshod over every Kickstarter promise that was ever made because dollars!
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 27, 2019 20:34:53 GMT -6
Another thing that confuses me is the argument that allowing everyone to purchase backer exclusive content as DLC will curb pirating... "I mean obviously that’s a part of it, but the chief things I was considering was making sure everyone had a safe and legitimate way to get the full game experience no matter when they find out about Bloodstained, whether that’s 5 months ago or 5 years from now, and that we were being respectful of the price backers originally paid (hence the DLC pricing).” If people were going to pirate the game they will do it anyway. Allowing people to purchase Backer Exclusive content has nothing to do with pirating the game. I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? This reminds me of COTM, why a paying customer like me have to deal with steam DRM while the pirates can get the drm free version? That's life. I dislike that if I want to buy pokemon cards from 10 years ago I have to pay triple the money than what other people paid. The backer exclusive content was made to reward the die hard fans that were willing to risk putting their money down (cases of the akuma clan facebook creator who put at least $5000) and letting strangers hold it for years before getting anything. It is the reason you even have the option to get anything in the first place whether the base version or anything extra they did. It is backers like me who should be upset for 505 breaking that promise, and they know they did which is why they try to explain and justify themselves so much in this update. The DRM comparison you made is invalid. Pirates are gonna be pirates anyway. When you go grocery shopping to you get mad all the time because maybe some people stole and got away with it? If steam ever promised they wouldn't do DRM in your customer to service provider contract and they did, then you can be mad. It isn't the same thing at all. |
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Post by Cale on May 27, 2019 20:39:18 GMT -6
I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? Because doing illegal things is wrong? That logic says "Why buy the game at all if I could pirate the whole thing?". Picking and choosing when to do something illegal like pirate the Backer Exclusive content only seems bizarre. Either you pirate or you don't. And since something might be time sensitive, it is usually best to act when you can, instead of waiting. If people were unable to afford it at the time, or learned about it too late (hard to believe with the slacker backer option), then sometimes people need to accept that they were too late to get what they want. |
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Post by DSLevantine on May 27, 2019 21:31:20 GMT -6
I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? This reminds me of COTM, why a paying customer like me have to deal with steam DRM while the pirates can get the drm free version? That's life. I dislike that if I want to buy pokemon cards from 10 years ago I have to pay triple the money than what other people paid. The backer exclusive content was made to reward the die hard fans that were willing to risk putting their money down (cases of the akuma clan facebook creator who put at least $5000) and letting strangers hold it for years before getting anything. It is the reason you even have the option to get anything in the first place whether the base version or anything extra they did. It is backers like me who should be upset for 505 breaking that promise, and they know they did which is why they try to explain and justify themselves so much in this update. The DRM comparison you made is invalid. Pirates are gonna be pirates anyway. When you go grocery shopping to you get mad all the time because maybe some people stole and got away with it? If steam ever promised they wouldn't do DRM in your customer to service provider contract and they did, then you can be mad. It isn't the same thing at all. The DRM comparison is valid. I didn't backed for steam ver, I backed for GOG and I was forced to take the Steam version in the end which I don't want at all. Pirate is not my problem, but when pirates get the "premium" version and I stuck with the inferior version, thats a problem. |
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Post by DSLevantine on May 27, 2019 21:31:51 GMT -6
I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? I've already paid for the game, but I've been forced by the publisher to settle for an inferior version of the game on someone else's platform because they're greedy, and now they're undercutting the price on their work-around for not giving refunds to Linux and Mac backers too.
Why should I not get what I've already paid for when non-backers can get the things that were supposed to be exclusives?
"exclusive backer-only content" was what was stated on the Kickstarter. But hey, it's 505, they get to run roughshod over every Kickstarter promise that was ever made because dollars!
I feel bad for the platform cancellation, but making backer content available for non backers is a different issue. I sincerely think 505 should refund to Linux and Mac backers. |
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Post by DSLevantine on May 27, 2019 21:34:50 GMT -6
I dislike backer exclusive content. The truth is, the normal version is inferior to backer version. There are people who are willing to pay for the game but not willing to settle for the inferior version. Why should they pay for the inferior version while the pirates can get the backer version? Because doing illegal things is wrong? That logic says "Why buy the game at all if I could pirate the whole thing?". Picking and choosing when to do something illegal like pirate the Backer Exclusive content only seems bizarre. Either you pirate or you don't. And since something might be time sensitive, it is usually best to act when you can, instead of waiting. If people were unable to afford it at the time, or learned about it too late (hard to believe with the slacker backer option), then sometimes people need to accept that they were too late to get what they want. Tell that to the pirates, I have already backed the game. My point stands, the pirate still get the premium version and paying customer gets inferior version |
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Cale
Great Old One
Ancient Legion
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind.
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Post by Cale on May 27, 2019 21:49:42 GMT -6
Because doing illegal things is wrong? That logic says "Why buy the game at all if I could pirate the whole thing?". Picking and choosing when to do something illegal like pirate the Backer Exclusive content only seems bizarre. Either you pirate or you don't. And since something might be time sensitive, it is usually best to act when you can, instead of waiting. If people were unable to afford it at the time, or learned about it too late (hard to believe with the slacker backer option), then sometimes people need to accept that they were too late to get what they want. Tell that to the pirates, I have already backed the game. My point stands, the pirate still get the premium version and paying customer gets inferior version Yea, because you didn't back at the tier for Special Backer Edition? I am pretty sure the campaign stated that only the $60+ tiers got the Backer Exclusive... If you wanted it why didn't you back at that tier? The pirates get whatever they want anyway, they have nothing to do with you getting additional content or not. Why do backers that paid an extra $32 just for the Backer Exclusive get a 300% mark-up for things that other people are paying $10 for? The terms were spelled out at the start of the campaign, changing the terms after already paying is dishonest. |
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Post by DSLevantine on May 27, 2019 23:40:50 GMT -6
Tell that to the pirates, I have already backed the game. My point stands, the pirate still get the premium version and paying customer gets inferior version Yea, because you didn't back at the tier for Special Backer Edition? I am pretty sure the campaign stated that only the $60+ tiers got the Backer Exclusive... If you wanted it why didn't you back at that tier? The pirates get whatever they want anyway, they have nothing to do with you getting additional content or not. Why do backers that paid an extra $32 just for the Backer Exclusive get a 300% mark-up for things that other people are paying $10 for? The terms were spelled out at the start of the campaign, changing the terms after already paying is dishonest. Wrong. I backed $175, so the rest of your argument is invalid |
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Post by Cale on May 27, 2019 23:45:08 GMT -6
Yea, because you didn't back at the tier for Special Backer Edition? I am pretty sure the campaign stated that only the $60+ tiers got the Backer Exclusive... If you wanted it why didn't you back at that tier? The pirates get whatever they want anyway, they have nothing to do with you getting additional content or not. Why do backers that paid an extra $32 just for the Backer Exclusive get a 300% mark-up for things that other people are paying $10 for? The terms were spelled out at the start of the campaign, changing the terms after already paying is dishonest. Wrong. I backed $175, so the rest of your argument is invalid You is a general use referring to a person who backed at less than $60, if you think I mean YOU specifically DSLevantine, then you have the wrong impression. My point is completely valid. People had the option to back at the tier, they didn't. |
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 28, 2019 2:11:08 GMT -6
browren just to make sure, the linux and mac backers are receiving a steam code, right? As I recall, your complaint was that you would be receiving a version of the game you couldnt play (without the use of proton or wine), not that your order had been canceled entirely. That being the case, cant you sell that code you receive? They should probably give you a code for the DLC as well, which you can also sell. You might also get the OST and digital retro guide, though yeah, selling those would be impractical, I can see the discontent there.
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Post by browren on May 28, 2019 7:01:18 GMT -6
browren just to make sure, the linux and mac backers are receiving a steam code, right? As I recall, your complaint was that you would be receiving a version of the game you couldnt play (without the use of proton or wine), not that your order had been canceled entirely. That being the case, cant you sell that code you receive? They should probably give you a code for the DLC as well, which you can also sell. You might also get the OST and digital retro guide, though yeah, selling those would be impractical, I can see the discontent there. There have been many people who suggested that I wasn't nearly as screwed as I said, because I could sell my copy of the game and backer perks for more than I backed, and now, thanks again to 505, I can't even do that. GOG has the game for $35.  505's offer was to convert to a physical copy. Who's going to wait for a physical copy + backer kit, pay shipping, take the risk that the seller is lying, etc. when you can just buy a retail copy and the suddenly not-so-exclusive content for ten bucks more?
Regarding piracy in general, there will always be people who don't want to pay for anything, and have no moral issues with stealing other people's work. Those people tend to be downloaders and not people who crack the games.
The people that do the cracking, though, have a variety of reasons for doing it. Some are against DRM, others feel that publishers charge too much for their games and cite piracy as the reason, so they feel justified stealing because paying customers have already "paid" for the piracy. Really what it comes down to is this: is it OK to cheat and steal to get what you want?
Well, 505, is it okay? Or are you "not engaging" me any more because you know you're wrong?
PUBLISHERS LOSE THEIR RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT PIRACY WHEN THEY'VE STOLEN FROM THEIR BACKERS.
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Post by Overlord on May 28, 2019 8:32:28 GMT -6
Blaming piracy is comical, really. As if they had no idea every game gets pirated until now. Why even release a GOG version if piracy is such an issue? Why make any decision based on what pirates might do? I don't understand this "non-backers are entitled to the full game" mindset/excuse either. I've seen a lot of complaints about download content in general on most video game forums I've visited over the years, and it's always met with "the game you buy is a full game, and you are not entitled to anything extra, which is what download content is". This is the only situation I've ever seen where apparently the game is not a full game because of one fourth wall breaking boss and one weapon, so everyone is entitled to have access, otherwise they won't be able to enjoy the game and be forced to pirate it. Is that the logic that's being used? Is that the type of person that decisions are being made for? They had no idea this would be an issue when they were planning the Kickstarter? Anything to deride the fact that the company has no problem false advertising in order to make some extra money.
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Post by Overlord on May 28, 2019 8:34:46 GMT -6
PUBLISHERS LOSE THEIR RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT PIRACY WHEN THEY'VE STOLEN FROM THEIR BACKERS.
I completely agree with you. Backers are expected to give all the respect in the world, yet the company is not expected to show even the slightest amount of respect. We live in a strange world. |
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 28, 2019 10:12:15 GMT -6
browren just to make sure, the linux and mac backers are receiving a steam code, right? As I recall, your complaint was that you would be receiving a version of the game you couldnt play (without the use of proton or wine), not that your order had been canceled entirely. That being the case, cant you sell that code you receive? They should probably give you a code for the DLC as well, which you can also sell. You might also get the OST and digital retro guide, though yeah, selling those would be impractical, I can see the discontent there. There have been many people who suggested that I wasn't nearly as screwed as I said, because I could sell my copy of the game and backer perks for more than I backed, and now, thanks again to 505, I can't even do that. GOG has the game for $35. 505's offer was to convert to a physical copy. Who's going to wait for a physical copy + backer kit, pay shipping, take the risk that the seller is lying, etc. when you can just buy a retail copy and the suddenly not-so-exclusive content for ten bucks more?
Regarding piracy in general, there will always be people who don't want to pay for anything, and have no moral issues with stealing other people's work. Those people tend to be downloaders and not people who crack the games.
The people that do the cracking, though, have a variety of reasons for doing it. Some are against DRM, others feel that publishers charge too much for their games and cite piracy as the reason, so they feel justified stealing because paying customers have already "paid" for the piracy. Really what it comes down to is this: is it OK to cheat and steal to get what you want?
Well, 505, is it okay? Or are you "not engaging" me any more because you know you're wrong?
PUBLISHERS LOSE THEIR RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT PIRACY WHEN THEY'VE STOLEN FROM THEIR BACKERS.
Alright, well, in another thread Arikado mentioned one suggestion- since its likely 505 will be producing additional dlc and expansions in the future, as the survey indicated people want story expansions and more costumes (the most popular choices for that question), if they were to give 60+ backers "season passes" for that content, would you be able to sell that? Like, say some time down the line they release the Vampire and Valkyrie costumes for Miriam along with an epilogue area and maybe an expansion for a secondary characters story, for a value of 30 dollars. Would you be able to sell codes for that and get a return for your 60 dollars? |
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Post by Overlord on May 28, 2019 10:48:49 GMT -6
There have been many people who suggested that I wasn't nearly as screwed as I said, because I could sell my copy of the game and backer perks for more than I backed, and now, thanks again to 505, I can't even do that. GOG has the game for $35. 505's offer was to convert to a physical copy. Who's going to wait for a physical copy + backer kit, pay shipping, take the risk that the seller is lying, etc. when you can just buy a retail copy and the suddenly not-so-exclusive content for ten bucks more?
Regarding piracy in general, there will always be people who don't want to pay for anything, and have no moral issues with stealing other people's work. Those people tend to be downloaders and not people who crack the games.
The people that do the cracking, though, have a variety of reasons for doing it. Some are against DRM, others feel that publishers charge too much for their games and cite piracy as the reason, so they feel justified stealing because paying customers have already "paid" for the piracy. Really what it comes down to is this: is it OK to cheat and steal to get what you want? Well, 505, is it okay? Or are you "not engaging" me any more because you know you're wrong?
PUBLISHERS LOSE THEIR RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT PIRACY WHEN THEY'VE STOLEN FROM THEIR BACKERS.
Alright, well, in another thread Arikado mentioned one suggestion- since its likely 505 will be producing additional dlc and expansions in the future, as the survey indicated people want story expansions and more costumes (the most popular choices for that question), if they were to give 60+ backers "season passes" for that content, would you be able to sell that? Like, say some time down the line they release the Vampire and Valkyrie costumes for Miriam along with an epilogue area and maybe an expansion for a secondary characters story, for a value of 30 dollars. Would you be able to sell codes for that and get a return for your 60 dollars? I wouldn't be so sure of that.  That's a long list of content that they still need to work on. I can't imagine them finishing it anytime soon, and I also can't imagine them wanting to work on this game for another two+ years, regardless of how well it sells. |
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gunlord500
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Hyped for Bloodstained 2!
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Post by gunlord500 on May 28, 2019 11:10:17 GMT -6
Good point Overlord , but Im not sure the remaining stretch goals.will take that much time. There are what, 6 or 7 more things, and one of them is Classic mode, which doesnt involve online content or brand new systems like roguelike mode. So more like 5 or 6 things to do, and IIRC shovel knight had many more stretch goals (like genderswap mode) released as staggered content. So I think bloodstained might not have THAT much time left before they can work on expansions proper. |
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