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Post by kamuiarikado on May 26, 2019 18:23:14 GMT -6
ArikadoYeah, it's like the right to repair your own electronics, it's your product and you can repair it or modding it (almost) anyway you want (and without infringing copyright laws), and for personal use only, obviously most of the companies hate that consumers doing that, but it's your personal use license and you can do (almost) anything you want with it. Another interesting example is emulation: you can dump your own videogame cartridges and isn't illegal because the physical cartridge it's your own personal use license and you can do (almost) anything you want with it, you can even play your dumped games with an compatible emulator of your choice, because emulation isn't illegal even if the companies aren't agree with this practice, obviously it's illegal if you download the games from the Internet. Note: I'm not saying that you can download Bloodstained: RotN from a torrent site if you have your own personal digital or physical copy of the game, obviously doing that is super illegal.
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Arikado
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Post by Arikado on May 26, 2019 18:33:18 GMT -6
kamuiarikado Good point about emulation and using your dumped game file, it's a great example to use in this discussion. And regarding your note, I'm also not implying that, nor do I condone it. What I do condone is using anything within the game you bought for your personal use, such as music, which should be perfectly legal.
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Post by kamuiarikado on May 26, 2019 19:44:28 GMT -6
Arikado "I'm also not implying that, nor do I condone it" Don't worry. It was just an example, I'm not implying that you want to pirate the game, sorry for the confusion. About uploading game's OST to Youtube: I think it's illegal because is not your music, even if you are ripping the sound files yourself from your personal copy, but this is a pretty gray area. The only way I can think it's legal to upload the RotN OST is if you have full permission from 505 and/or Artplay. An example of a company that gives permission to do exactly that is Falcom's game music: you can do (almost) anything you want with the music files, you can even playing the complete Ys: Origin OST in your wedding! because of Falcom's "Free music use" policy, as long as you give full credit to Falcom. Source about the Falcom "Free music use" policy (restrictions may apply): translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.falcom.co.jp%2Fmusic-useperhaps this is will be my final reply about this topic and sorry people for the off-topic, let's continue with the Bloodstained: RotN talk. 22 days left!
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 26, 2019 21:52:55 GMT -6
In reference to digital backer rewards compared (in value) to excusivity, to be fair, if it is the case that things like OSTs or pdf versions of the artbook will be free online sooner rather than later, isn't that also the case with "exclusive" content? Like, say 505 had never gone back on the exclusivity thing and the IGA boss and Swordwhip were still only given to original 60 dollar backers rather than 28 backers or new folks, If that were so, it would be pretty easy for modders to just unlock them and then give them to everyone for free, or for the "backer exclusive" version of the game to end up on torrent sites, depending on what method the devs would have used to gate the content. It may have taken more time to rip in-game content than it would be to make copies of the OST or artbook pdfs, but not by very much--these days, I would give pirates only a week at most to completely bypass any attempt at digital gatekeeping. So it's not obvious to me why or how the exclusivity of the special boss or swordwhip necessarily outweighs the value of a digital OST, retro strategy guide, and (potentially) pdf of the artbook. My main man :purify: mentioned to Arikado that I had brought up possibly giving 60 dollar backers a pdf version of the artbook to make up for the swordwhip and boss no longer being exclusive (at the moment it's only a softcover and hardcover available to higher tiers). The reason I mention this is that such rewards are common among other kickstarters and are generally held to be a good deal. For instance, I also backed Blasphemous, and they offered a pdf of their game's artbook as well: As you can see, the 40 dollar tier offers a pdf of the artbook, along with a variety of other digital rewards (namely alpha builds and access to backer-only parts of the discord, which ended up being sort of a pain in the butt for everyone, but that's a longer story). That's a 15 dollar difference to the lower tier, which was 25 dollars for the game, soundtrack, and access (I think) to some backer-only parts of the discord. No Blasphemous backer I'm aware of has ever complained that the Blasphemous artbook pdf will be available for free in pretty short order. Thus, it seems to me a reasonable compromise: A pdf of the Bloodstained artbook would have at least 10 dollars of value given the comparative prices of the Blasphemous tiers I just mentioned (a 15 dollar difference beween the 25 and 40 tiers), and that isn't even mentioning how the Bloodstained artbook will probably be bigger and have more famous artists represented in it (such as Mana <3) than the Blasphemous one. And it doesn't take away from the value of the higher tiers either, since actual physical artbooks have an inherent value to them that pdfs lack. Again, to take the Blasphemous example, the 60 dollar tier (which I got, by the by) provides a printed version of the artbook, indicating that physical copies of an artbook are worth 20 dollars more than digital ones, and about 30 dollars in and of themselves overall (if we take a digital copy of the book to be worth 10). So, let's compare what backers would be getting under my suggestion: 28 dollar backers: Game, plus soundtrack (10$), plus IGA content (10$) mean they'd have to pay a total of 48 dollars to get a comparable amount of content, straight-up. 40 dollar retail buyers: They get a 15 dollar steelbook, so let's add that as a credit and say they're paying 25 dollars for the game. Plus 10 bucks for the soundtrack and 10 bucks for the IGA content, let's say they end up paying 45 dollars to get what they want. Now, 60 dollar backers under the Gunlord Plan: Let's say they're getting 28 dollars of value for the game (since that's what the 28 backers got), plus 10 dollars of value for the IGA content and 10 dollars of value for the OST. So they're at 48 dollars of value right now, which still put them underwater by 12 dollars. But then let's add in the 10 dollars of value for the strategy guide PDF, which puts them at 58 dollars of value. They're still behind by 2 dollars, but if we add in 10 dollars (at least) for a pdf of the artbook, they get a total of 68 dollars worth of value, which seems quite reasonable to me. And again, if you want to say that pdfs of the strategy guide and the prospective artbook wouldn't be worth anything because they'll be available for free online, you can say the same thing about the "exclusive" content, which would have been extracted by miners and/or pirates in very short order. The nice thing about this plan is that 505 and Artplay could very easily implement it. Making the drawings for an artbook due to the hard work of the arists is the hard part. Once you've got that down, making a pdf is easy-peasy and oughtn't require more than a couple of days of work (at the VERY most) from an Artplay employee. So it seems like an easy way to smooth some ruffled feathers around here and get things back on track.
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Cale
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Post by Cale on May 26, 2019 22:15:47 GMT -6
Well I can't say much for values, but exclusivity being modded in would mostly be accessible to PC only. PS4 and the other consoles would be far more difficult to mod in.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 26, 2019 22:28:49 GMT -6
True, though from what I understand of the surveys, the bulk of the backers for RotN are on the PC anyways. And digital content like pdfs of the strategy guide and the OST will primarily be used on the PC anyways, like I know the PS4 can read pdfs and play music and all that, but I don't know of anyone who commonly uses consoles for that purpose.
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Arikado
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Post by Arikado on May 27, 2019 1:10:53 GMT -6
I can't speak for others, but the only reason I backed at $60 was the exclusive content. It was really that big of a game-changer, and if it wasn't for that single, endlessly tempting reward, I would have probably backed at $28. Who knows?
I never cared about the other "extra" rewards such as the digital OST and digital strategy booklet, and I certainly wouldn't pay extra for them. The only thing I would pay for is the game itself, but that exclusive content reward was too tempting, it easily swayed me to pay more than double the price of what I would have paid if I only wanted the game.
I'm not against giving the general public access to the exclusive content, but that doesn't stop me from being disappointed, or feeling that I've paid more for nothing (at least nothing that I cared about).
I think the only thing that will help ease the disappointment is if they make another DLC content and give us $60+ backers free access to it. They can still sell it to the general public (and $28 backers), but by giving it to us $60 backers, they will make up for their false promise of exclusive content, at least in my book.
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roguedragon05
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Post by roguedragon05 on May 27, 2019 3:26:20 GMT -6
gunlord500 Speaking of Blasphemous I just found out today that The Game Kitchen's other game "The Last Door" is finally out on PS4, I enjoyed Episode 1 just tonight again.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 27, 2019 4:12:34 GMT -6
They can still sell it to the general public (and $28 backers), but by giving it to us $60 backers, they will make up for their false promise of exclusive content, at least in my book. You know, that just might be a good idea. The survey indicated a lot of desire.for future dlc, namely costumes for Miriam and story expansions. So I would say it's just about inevitable that 505 games is going to release such DLC. Giving it for free to 60+ level backers might be just the sweetening of the pot we need.
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Post by edopode on May 27, 2019 4:34:34 GMT -6
I speak only for myself. But if I had it to do all over again, but with the knowledge of how this would have turned out. I can't say I would have backed as I did. I still would have backed, to be sure. One of the editions was of a high tier just because I wanted the awesome physical stuff. Including a potentially rare physical variant that might be a neat thing to just have. As I don't really have shelves full of collectables or media or anything, I don't believe that would have changed because this would be personally more meaningful to me.
But I do know I wouldn't have put in a second backing of a physical copy that still included the Backer exclusive stuff. As I took them at their word I wouldn't be able to get it any other way, and didn't want to have the experience on my portable system be lacking from the other one. I was one of those vita backers that got punted from that system. Which I don't hold against anyone... But I absolutely understand anyone who does. Having to jump to an entirely new system is a daunting hurdle to some.
Ultimately I do want to weigh in that I hate the idea of backer exclusive content. Hell, I don't like limited edition anything. There's no reason to deny people who only come into certain experiences much later to be refused some part of the experience because of a time delay. And so I don't object at all to the boss and weapon being sold as dlc, and even answered as such on that open survey. And while i vaguely recall agreeing in the survey that 10 dollars would be a fair price for it... I really don't feel that's true anymore. And god help me if there's a future revelation that other dlc will be less than the difference for the retail and backed copies.
I suppose for me, it's in reaction to an expectation that the game was just going to be 60 if it released new. That the "bonus" stuff that came with all the kickstarter tiers above 60 were literally bonuses. But to retail at 50 (game + dlc) and come with a steel book vs paying 60 because I believed what I was told, and having to fight other fans for a shot at 800 remaining cases that I'd still have to pay for... Takes a lot of the perceived value away.
So... Still happy with my super big extra shiny spectacular edition(well, maybe, haven't actually gotten it yet). But really not happy with the additional copy. And extremely unhappy that I'm going to have to buy ANOTHER copy if i want that damned case from bestbuy. Which I'm probably not going to get if the rumored stock is to be believed. But then, it's not like there weren't lies about what comes with the purchase of this game before.
... Okay, so I might be a bit bitter. But I really am trying not to be.
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Post by freddythemonkey on May 27, 2019 7:12:56 GMT -6
roguedragon05 The Last Door is an absolute masterpiece of horror. Such an incredible game, I bought it I think four times in total (the single episodes as they came out on their site all those years ago, the complete editions on Steam and two more copies as gift to my friends) and I still think like it deserves even more money. I just love that game and The Game Kitchen. /OT
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 9:39:32 GMT -6
I regret backing this at the 60 dollar physical tier, and have learned my lesson. I will never back on kickstarter ever again, though I do hope this game is successful and leads to a franchise.
EDIT: Ignore this highly pathetic post of mine, sorry for the negativity, everyone!
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 27, 2019 10:47:10 GMT -6
saberwolf94 "You're basically saying what almost everyone has said that wants to defend 505 like they're your brother or something." I'm NOT defending and/or justifying 505 or Artplay actions, but my point is they didn't break any american law by making this decisions and last minute changes. Because you didn't read my complete post, here's a summary of my wall of text: "know 505 have committed a lot of mistakes, and the Mac/Linux situation was unfair, but that matter has already been addressed (and solved in a way) by the means of giving the affected the option to change the digital copy to physical (MAC/LINUX BACKERS ONLY), so they can sell it and get more money that they had been pledged, because of the exclusive physical swag." "I am a backer too, ($125 tier), and I was affected with the Vita port cancellation (I bought a Vita specifically to play Bloodstained: RotN), but I'm not shouting: SCAM! LAWSUIT! LIARS! I WILL PIRATE YOUR GAME! I WILL NEVER BACK A IGA/505 GAME AGAIN! and so on, at the slightest provocation like some of the backers affected by the Mac/Linux/Vita, the FuturePak steel case and the DLC situation." "Let me clear that I’m not defending 505 and/or ArtPlay actions, but I think some of the backers (fortunately, they are a very small vocal minority) are making a storm in a glass of water, and obviously I'm saying some of the backers, and not all of them, because there are well indented and reasonable arguments being said on the aforementioned platform, so this isn’t a call to censorship." TL;DR - The things as they are, What 505 was done was disappointing and unfair, but at least they are trying to solved this situation, and obviously I'm playing devil's advocate here. - 505/ArtPlay didn't break any american laws. - 505/ArtPlay aren't my brothers, nor my lovers, nor my husbandos, nor my gods, and I think marrying with a company is one for the stupidest things you can do. - It's OK to be angry, upset, disappointed or been cautiously excited for the game. - Obviously this is just my opinion and you can putting in the trash and burning with hellfire if you want, I really don't care at this point. You seem to realize that wasn't right (regarding backers, business wise what they does make sense) but you want to stress that they didn't break laws etc. and I wonder if this is even a serious argument. It has nothing to do with the matter and when you say something like this I can only interpret that you're trying to defend them to some extend even though you claim you aren't. You're right I didn't read your entire post but I did skim through it, I'll just say that I highly disagree with many points made there and from the tone of your writing I'd made some deductions. I chose to address only the point that mattered the most for me, hence why I didn't quote your entire post. Regarding 505 trying to fix the situation, I don't know where did you come with this, it's another example of making you seem to be in two camps at once, you didn't even say they "might" and quite frankly I don't care about the backer content not being exclusive anymore, they can give it away free for all care. My only concern is not losing extra money on import fees and taxes as an overseas backer now that they've changed the shipment from 1 to 3.
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 27, 2019 10:59:25 GMT -6
In reference to digital backer rewards compared (in value) to excusivity, to be fair, if it is the case that things like OSTs or pdf versions of the artbook will be free online sooner rather than later, isn't that also the case with "exclusive" content? Like, say 505 had never gone back on the exclusivity thing and the IGA boss and Swordwhip were still only given to original 60 dollar backers rather than 28 backers or new folks, If that were so, it would be pretty easy for modders to just unlock them and then give them to everyone for free, or for the "backer exclusive" version of the game to end up on torrent sites, depending on what method the devs would have used to gate the content. It may have taken more time to rip in-game content than it would be to make copies of the OST or artbook pdfs, but not by very much--these days, I would give pirates only a week at most to completely bypass any attempt at digital gatekeeping. So it's not obvious to me why or how the exclusivity of the special boss or swordwhip necessarily outweighs the value of a digital OST, retro strategy guide, and (potentially) pdf of the artbook. My main man :purify: mentioned to Arikado that I had brought up possibly giving 60 dollar backers a pdf version of the artbook to make up for the swordwhip and boss no longer being exclusive (at the moment it's only a softcover and hardcover available to higher tiers). The reason I mention this is that such rewards are common among other kickstarters and are generally held to be a good deal. For instance, I also backed Blasphemous, and they offered a pdf of their game's artbook as well: As you can see, the 40 dollar tier offers a pdf of the artbook, along with a variety of other digital rewards (namely alpha builds and access to backer-only parts of the discord, which ended up being sort of a pain in the butt for everyone, but that's a longer story). That's a 15 dollar difference to the lower tier, which was 25 dollars for the game, soundtrack, and access (I think) to some backer-only parts of the discord. No Blasphemous backer I'm aware of has ever complained that the Blasphemous artbook pdf will be available for free in pretty short order. Thus, it seems to me a reasonable compromise: A pdf of the Bloodstained artbook would have at least 10 dollars of value given the comparative prices of the Blasphemous tiers I just mentioned (a 15 dollar difference beween the 25 and 40 tiers), and that isn't even mentioning how the Bloodstained artbook will probably be bigger and have more famous artists represented in it (such as Mana <3) than the Blasphemous one. And it doesn't take away from the value of the higher tiers either, since actual physical artbooks have an inherent value to them that pdfs lack. Again, to take the Blasphemous example, the 60 dollar tier (which I got, by the by) provides a printed version of the artbook, indicating that physical copies of an artbook are worth 20 dollars more than digital ones, and about 30 dollars in and of themselves overall (if we take a digital copy of the book to be worth 10). So, let's compare what backers would be getting under my suggestion: 28 dollar backers: Game, plus soundtrack (10$), plus IGA content (10$) mean they'd have to pay a total of 48 dollars to get a comparable amount of content, straight-up. 40 dollar retail buyers: They get a 15 dollar steelbook, so let's add that as a credit and say they're paying 25 dollars for the game. Plus 10 bucks for the soundtrack and 10 bucks for the IGA content, let's say they end up paying 45 dollars to get what they want. Now, 60 dollar backers under the Gunlord Plan: Let's say they're getting 28 dollars of value for the game (since that's what the 28 backers got), plus 10 dollars of value for the IGA content and 10 dollars of value for the OST. So they're at 48 dollars of value right now, which still put them underwater by 12 dollars. But then let's add in the 10 dollars of value for the strategy guide PDF, which puts them at 58 dollars of value. They're still behind by 2 dollars, but if we add in 10 dollars (at least) for a pdf of the artbook, they get a total of 68 dollars worth of value, which seems quite reasonable to me. And again, if you want to say that pdfs of the strategy guide and the prospective artbook wouldn't be worth anything because they'll be available for free online, you can say the same thing about the "exclusive" content, which would have been extracted by miners and/or pirates in very short order. The nice thing about this plan is that 505 and Artplay could very easily implement it. Making the drawings for an artbook due to the hard work of the arists is the hard part. Once you've got that down, making a pdf is easy-peasy and oughtn't require more than a couple of days of work (at the VERY most) from an Artplay employee. So it seems like an easy way to smooth some ruffled feathers around here and get things back on track. Pirates are gonna be pirates. Regardless if that happened, I certainly wouldn't be able to blame 505 for this as it wouldn't be their fault. But now they've lost my trust. If there is a next time I'll wait at the end like the average consumer.
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hyugakojiro
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Post by hyugakojiro on May 27, 2019 16:39:02 GMT -6
They can still sell it to the general public (and $28 backers), but by giving it to us $60 backers, they will make up for their false promise of exclusive content, at least in my book. You know, that just might be a good idea. The survey indicated a lot of desire.for future dlc, namely costumes for Miriam and story expansions. So I would say it's just about inevitable that 505 games is going to release such DLC. Giving it for free to 60+ level backers might be just the sweetening of the pot we need. I think that would be a nice gesture and a step in the right direction. Something for Angel-Corlux and Question to look into.
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Post by Mr. Welldone on May 28, 2019 10:47:19 GMT -6
Can... can I be excited as hell to play this game?
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Post by roguedragon05 on May 28, 2019 11:47:27 GMT -6
Mr. Welldone Good God Man! What do you think this is... a joyous occasion you've been waiting for for half a decade?!! LOL Yea man be as happy as you wanna be just like everyone else!
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Post by sylver on May 28, 2019 12:08:38 GMT -6
Can... can I be excited as hell to play this game? Why would you want this? Right now, you have to join the whining masses, while sitting in a dark corner and sulk until xmas and eastern will fall on the same date.. (proly just joking) Or whatever, go all out und scream out of joy!
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on May 28, 2019 23:36:32 GMT -6
Dang Sorry Arikado , I checked up on it and it seems a season pass for future DLC might not be practical. If the game is being released for a Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft system, there are licensing fees 505 has to pay for the game itself and any associated additions, such as DLC. So 505 would have to pay potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, and possibly more, just to make more costumes or story expansions beyond the stretch goals for Bloodstained. Thus, it wouldnt be practical for them to give it away in the form of season passes. Hmm...with that out of the way, another suggestion I initially brought up when the survey was called: If the backer only content is no longer backer only, how about giving 60+ backers an exclusive in game title they could use? Like, the online modes are still in progress, so maybe they could set it so that your username on the leaderboards had a special effect or flair indicating you were an original member of the Army of the Night. This would give the backers something special to commemorate them and make their purchase worth it, and also wouldnt attract pirates because if youre pirating a game, you arent going to care about letting other people know you supported it, cause you didnt lol. What do you guys think?
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Post by saberwolf94 on May 29, 2019 0:12:58 GMT -6
Dang Sorry Arikado , I checked up on it and it seems a season pass for future DLC might not be practical. If the game is being released for a Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft system, there are licensing fees 505 has to pay for the game itself and any associated additions, such as DLC. So 505 would have to pay potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, and possibly more, just to make more costumes or story expansions beyond the stretch goals for Bloodstained. Thus, it wouldnt be practical for them to give it away in the form of season passes. Hmm...with that out of the way, another suggestion I initially brought up when the survey was called: If the backer only content is no longer backer only, how about giving 60+ backers an exclusive in game title they could use? Like, the online modes are still in progress, so maybe they could set it so that your username on the leaderboards had a special effect or flair indicating you were an original member of the Army of the Night. This would give the backers something special to commemorate them and make their purchase worth it, and also wouldnt attract pirates because if youre pirating a game, you arent going to care about letting other people know you supported it, cause you didnt lol. What do you guys think? Gunlord, can you find out about how import fees will be handled for overseas backers that backed the $300 tier, now that shipment has been split to 3, physical game, backer collectables and amano poster it makes things more complicated for overseas backers like me. I have already messaged Question and fangamer regarding this, they haven't replied yet, if it's easy for yoy to find out any information I'd appreciate it.
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