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Post by Lepstadder on Jan 14, 2019 0:17:15 GMT -6
Let this be a civil discussion. I've surfed the Subreddit and a little bit here, but I thought this is the best place to sate my curiosity. I know that a lot of people here are eagerly anticipating the release and are merely genuinely excited for a new game. However, I see a lot of negative energy resonating within communities about RotN. I understand them, yes. And I might be a little late to specific news. But I came here to ask this one specific question: What's stopping you from being excited at this game?
I believe that this thread, if met with a decent amount of responses, will help other people realize the feelings of those who are not too hype for the game. Personally, I have certain gripes about the game ever since I've played the demo. But that doesn't stop me from being hopeful. My complaints may be more or less the same as everyone else. Though, I am sure that some people have a specific case for it.
One thing that I assume from fans of the genre is that people compare RotN to the older titles that IGA has made during his time in Konami. His past works have not been without flaws of course, and we all want RotN to be the game where all of the flaws are eradicated. However, IGA has specific game design choices that doesn't work for everyone at all. You can't please everyone after all. Reading statements of many people sadden me and make me less excited for this game. But! IF I cannot be positive, the least I could do is not be negative.
I do my best to treat this game as a new legacy, not something to compare to Castlevania. I realize that most of the people who are watching over RotN's progress are also Castlevania fans. But CotM has proved that people who weren't fans of Castlevania back then has made many people become curious over this upcoming game.
Is there anything stopping me from being excited from this game? Honestly, no. But I want to hear from you. Ever since I have finished every IGAVania released, I've felt nothing but endless thirst for the game. No amount of "Metroidvanias" could ever sate my thirst, not even games like Dead Cells or Hollow Knight. That is why, no matter how mediocre the game may end up, I will embrace the game and love it with all my heart. These games helped me go through hard times and RotN might be the next big thing that can finally give me another smile.
Now, let us talk about your thoughts. I hope that this thread will help other people broaden their thoughts about the game. Perhaps, you have a reason to tell others that we shouldn't be excited? Or maybe, you want to tell us why we should be excited? I will periodically give out one of my more specific gripes and fascinations about the demo once there is discourse.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 14, 2019 7:07:37 GMT -6
I'm still excited for the game. It's been a long time for hype levels to remain what they were during the Kickstarter. That magic is hard to keep going, but places like this where an active community shares art and fellowship helps me out with that. We have a nice direct line to the team here too.
Due to the cancelation of Vita and Linux, I totally understand why some fans have flipped. That really sucks for them, and although it doesn't affect the way I'll play the game, it affects this community that I've worked to cultivate. It doesn't stop me from being excited, but it certainly has me addressing more negativity than positivity.
That's ok though. The bad things stand out and negativity is louder than positivity. The good news is I still see new fans joining the community and being excited to play after all this time.
All these things will be part of our history, and when the game is out and has a growing following due to its sucess, we will have many cool things to celebrate just like we do with IGA's previous games.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 14, 2019 8:49:44 GMT -6
A word of caution I want to give to OP and everyone is to not let what others say about something ruin your enjoyment of it. Whether it's this game, another one or anything else in life, if you look for negative opinions about something - you will definitely find them, but the thing is that not all of them come from an applicable perspective, state of being informed like yours, a stable life situation, or even a sound or genuine headspace. So often for other games I see it said that "the community ruined it for me", but why let it? Especially in the case of something being a single player game, the loudest personalities of other people should have no hold on controlling your life. No one should feel bad to just enjoy games as they are subjectively experienced by them - because if you go deep enough, you will find something to rob you of your joy, often with people out there who derive enjoyment only from doing that to you.
The thing is, that negativity I believe often comes from a place of external issues with their person. Not solely to put you down or ruin things, but because they are battling depression, have a particularly bad work or home life, or just a singular very bad day. It's just most often too hard to read the order or disorder in someone's mind and the situation they're coming from, so if you do take and listen to all of this (which I myself do), it's just not wise to let it color and darken your own world, especially when you know and are comfortable in the things that you enjoy. You may feel at first that you gain a more objective picture of something from absorbing all those words, and to a point that is and can be true, but more often you're left with only a mass collection of other subjectives who were vocal possibly for the above reasons rather than a true collective picture.
It's easiest to me to try applying this to music. We seem to hold our own ground with music much more solidly than we do with games, but I don't see why they can't be the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 9:47:08 GMT -6
In my personal view being excited about a Kickstarter game is fundamentally "wrong", since joining a crowdfunding campaign for a game (or a product in general) is like a gamble: you can't be certain that the product will be released (releasing a complete game is not easy), and if it'll meet your expectations/keep the promises when (and if) it will be released. I started to think like that after I joined the only other Kickstarter campaign I ever joined, the Double Fine Adventure (that later became Broken Age) by Double Fine/Tim Schafer, back in 2012. As a lover of "late" adventure games from LucasArts (Monkey Island, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango and so on...). I was really excited about it and joined the campaign very early, joining and partecipating on the forums and so on. But, little by little, after a few choices that I didn't agree with, I decided to just wait for the finished product and tone down my excitement about the game, even if I felt bad about it because, as I said, I was really excited. Eventually the game was released and I liked it, but was it worth all the excitement I had for years? Definitely no. And probably those who pledged at higher tiers than mine weren't as "satisfied" as me.
In the case of Bloodstained RotN, I read all the campaign updates and waited for the very last moment before joining (I pledged on Fangamer site in late April 2018), because I thought the game was promising, the updates were well done and I had very fond memories of playing Castlevania SotN (my first and favourite Castlevania game I played). But as I said before, I knew it from the beginning that it was a gamble. When Bloostained CotM was released (even if late on the Switch in Europe, but hey, shit happens) I began to be more "optimistic" toward the project since the game was really good and really captured the spirit of older Castlevania games. When the beta demo for RotN was released, I played it for a few hours to enjoy it and to help in the bug hunting and, despite its flaws (like the downgraded graphics/changed lighting compared to older pics of the game, lack of native keyboard/mouse support, lack of Mac/Linux version) I liked it overall. But then the updates since then have been pretty underwhelming: no info/clips of the game on other platforms (PS4/Xbox One/Switch), some monsters reveal and the infamous drop of support of Vita/Mac/Linux platforms, all promised during the campaign, and the lack of refunds for Mac/Linux users (something I think it's very bad, but I digress). Personally speaking I'm not affected by these choices, but they cast a "bad light" on the whole project. I hope that future updates will bring good news but in the end, as bad as it sounds, for me it's better to tone down the expectations about the game hoping that our gamble will pay off.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jan 14, 2019 11:00:45 GMT -6
I generally agree with @huberoz.
Personally speaking I was not 100% happy with the latest demo as I felt that it was adequate but the money from funds raised by the campaign PLUS publisher investment couldn't result in something "just adequate" in my mind. From an aesthetic point of view first, sure, but not even the gameplay fully satisfied me. Plus (of course that's wholly a personal thing) I tend to worsen my negative opinion on something the more I think about it.
It certainly didn't help that the subsequent updates were lukewarm at best with some very bad news in between. The communication also I felt getting worse.
As a result I don't check on the community as often as before. I'm mostly trying not to think about the game waiting for the release but it's hard for me to be that excited anymore. Even if it saddens me immensely because of various reasons I talked about in some topics.
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Post by Cale on Jan 14, 2019 20:15:54 GMT -6
A lot of things make it hard to be excited for this game. But I believe in stating both sides, so I will start what makes me HYPE!
Alchemy. Trains. IGAvania. Orchestrated music. Hardcover art book.
Things that are making the experience sour.
Delayed release. Loss of multiple platforms (I chose PS4, doesn't effect me personally, but doesn't feel good to read). 2.5D. Art style. Lack of refunds. Difficulties with CotM. No demo for me (Mac PC).
So basically most updates recently are not good news. What's worse is the compounding effect of the bad news. I haven't read any good answers for people who only had the one system they backed on, they aren't entitled to refunds and they can't play.
Trying to stay positive though. Just hard to enjoy things when others can't. (Always been the type of person to not eat at a restaurant until everyones meal has arrived.)
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Post by dareka on Jan 14, 2019 23:35:23 GMT -6
Personally, nothing's keeping me from being excited at the moment. On the contrary, the fact that they're taking the criticism the beta baker demo got to heart is really encouraging and makes me very excited for the finished product. It's not that I can't sympathize with those who are disappointed or less excited for the game - it's just that I can also sympathize with the developers and staff. Yes, not getting a refund despite the platform you backed the game for being dropped sucks. It genuinely sucks. But there are other things that suck, too. The stress the developers are under. The meager pay and long hours they've endured while working on the game for years now (how do I know the pay is meager and the hours long? because that's how it is at small Japanese developers. Game developers are overworked all over the world; but in Japan, they're paid peanuts for it on top of that.) The uncertainty as to whether or not this will be ArtPlay's first and final game also sucks; same goes for the pressure the staff at 505 is under to turn a profit on it. So I think about these things, and about this community, and how even when morale is down, XombieMike , purifyweirdshard , and the rest manage to keep discussions civil and inviting, and I can't help but root for the game! Maybe it also has to do with the fact that I mostly just play FFXIV and the occasional dungeon crawler these days, but I'm really looking forward to spending some quality time with what promises to be the biggest IGAvania ever when it hits later this year.
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Post by illasera on Jan 15, 2019 18:09:58 GMT -6
I am skeptical as to Koji, Doubting that he knows what he is doing. SoTN - bugged gamplay : I want to remind people, He made SoTN, but Gameplay-wise, it was THE WORST metroidvania game out there, horrible bugs, unstable balance, easily broken. (They are not joking when they say that everything in the same zipcode dies when you get the poisonous cloud ability) Other directors made the better Konami metroidvanias (Are we backing the right horse?) : So what about the followup 2D konami metroidvania / castlevania games? Aria of sorrow, Circle of the moon, Dawn of sorrow, Portrait of ruin, Order of ecclessia? Well, They were made by other directors (And nobody even mentions it), And the masterpiece of "Curse of the moon", Well, it was inti create, from all i can tell, koji had nothing to do with it. (Reference, The video trailer release of "curse of the moon" , Koji says so himself).
To some extend, he is just a name that took the franchise to the right direction, but other people perfected the formula. (I would actually like to see " Satoshi Kushibuchi" (Portrait of ruin) director, behind this project).
RoTN , Not challenging and movements feels odd : From what i can tell from the demos and updates, All Koji cares about is , "is the shader too bright? Is the shader too saturated?" Who cares?, Make it a collection of bounding boxes or even 8-bit tiny sprites like in "curse of the moon", Just make a bloody good game, Leave the shaders alone. There is already the problem of 2.5D that characters don't feel right when they move on the screen, And i didn't find the demos challenging at all, as i did with curse of the moon (Which was easy but challenging).
Example : Fight zangetsu in RoTN (This symbolize a problem), because of the nature of 3D models and "Lerping", It doesn't telegraph well (movement wise). I do not know where his animation position will start in and where it will end, It doesn't register visually well for me as it were in a 2D game, And this goes to all monsters)
RoTN seems slow by DESIGN (Fillers): When i play action games, I expect most of the game to be action-packed, even if its RPG, i don't want to start DEALING WITH MENUS Example : Order of Ecclesia actually reduced the menu-spending time by allowing you to bind ability to macro keys so you won't have to go the menu every time. And yes there was a shop i guess and side-quests (But you could ignore the side-quests). Here we get food, Crafting, items, gems, shops, side-quests, menus, menus and MORE MENUS, As for me, I want mostly the action part and if i have to spend time in a menu, Make it as little as you can.
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Post by Lepstadder on Jan 16, 2019 10:47:29 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard I never really thought of it that way. I know people use video games as a coping mechanism, but to think depression alone is a factor on why there are such bitter responses to 505's decision and method of informing its backers about certain announcments. I, myself, am not really a backer. I found out about the Kickstarter when I was like, 16. That was 2015. I was just a high schooler with no source of income. I wanted to back, but couldn't. Fast forward today, I'm not sure if I would feel the same compared to people. That said, I love IGAVania games. I never really thought much about menial gameplay issues such as pacing or whatever other complaints about the genre are. I loved the hell out of the series so much that I replayed every single IGAVania game a little too much. Mostly SotN and AoS. Being able to play the demo from my friend's computer made me the happiest man in the world. Of course, I don't allow other people's opinions about a game that I am genuinely excited for to let me down. I don't care if the game turns out to be mediocre. I am still thankful for Koji Igarashi for actually making a game that he loves, something that I will unconditionally love no matter what. I have a lot to say about the demo, though. Mostly complaints, but about the graphics. I really would have preferred 2D, but 3D is okay. I trust Igarashi's decision. Right now, while there aren't any news about what exactly the team did to the game after gathering feedback from the Backer Demo, I think it's better off this way so that we are swept on our feet when the game actually ends up looking really damn good. I don't want RotN to be MN9 because it was rushed. No one is perfect, especially a group of new game developers working on something so ambitious. Honestly, a simple game would suffice, and they could continue making more games of the same caliber. I have mixed feelings, yes, but I try not to lean towards negativity. If I'm going to be honest, MN9 isn't really as bad as people say it is. It's an absolutely playable and fun game. But yes, it does suffer from many game design flaws. In fact, too many to mention. illasera In Koji's defense, there is an overwhelming amount of backlash against the graphics. A lot of people are fine with the gameplay because it 100% feels like a good ol' IGAVania. IGAVania games and how they play are sort of a thing of its own, y'know? I know they're branded as action, but that kind of gameplay is exactly how I love it so our mileage may vary. Though, I hope that the animation department considers using techniques that make 2D look good. The animation team behind League of Legends use the same philosophy and is why their game looks so good. Here's what I mean. If Zangetsu was animated a little like that samurai dude there (Yasuo), he would look more dynamic. A lot about the game looks very stiff, especially the cutscenes. The game runs in 60fps, which makes games like these look uncanny in comparison to its pixel/hand-drawn counterparts. Lot's of things to say about the game so far. The only thing I implore people to do is lower your expectations and anticipate. Koji Igarashi, if you were reading this then the only thing I want to tell you is thank you. I've replayed the hell out of your games on the GBA and NDS, but especially SotN. I live for the entirety of the genre. There was a gaming convention from where I am. Although, I wasn't able to go there. Koji was there with the demo, it was 2016. I wanted to go, but couldn't. Although, my friend was able to. Not being able to meet Koji himself on a day where I COULD'VE really grinds my gears.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 16, 2019 11:03:36 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard I never really thought of it that way. I know people use video games as a coping mechanism, but to think depression alone is a factor on why there are such bitter responses to 505's decision and method of informing its backers about certain announcments. No no no, don't misunderstand me there, I'm not applying my statement to that situation, it's quite different. I'm more talking about reception to the game itself as a piece and what people have said of it all along (because that's what I thought your post was in reference to) rather than this current thing regarding platforms and announcements. I don't for a second think that depression is a root for what's going on there, and it'd be incredibly lame to shift blame on something like that for it. They were promised a product, are not receiving it and not acquiring refunds. That is obviously reasonable cause for concern. The more prominent examples of what I'm talking about would be how I'm sure you've seen people that habitually stalk comment sections of sites to trash things. Their view seems unreasonable, ill-conceived, incomplete or written off as just trolling or anger. I think more accurately they're struggling in life with something and that's their outlet, and there's differing degrees of it. There can be bits of truth in what their words show, but the underlying motivation is not to further a true understanding, but that they're generally unhappy. Linux/Mac guys are specifically unhappy about a tangible and unfortunate problem. Some of how they react and push besides that can be outlook and personality, but that wouldn't allow it to be dismissed or diminished. Like I've been saying elsewhere, my hope is that they can still enjoy the game somehow, whether it's non-native compatibility or different platforms.
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Post by illasera on Jan 16, 2019 12:07:23 GMT -6
I don't have an issue with the visuals as in, the appearance, Gameplay should be king , Always...
My issue is with telegraphy which directly affects the gameplay. If its inconsistent enough, We are starting to fall to the realm of "Randomness"
which is driven by "Luck" and not "Skills / Tactfulness / planning ahead"
Lot's of things to say about the game so far. The only thing I implore people to do is lower your expectations and anticipate. I will speak for myself and say, That's actually what i wanted, Nothing so grandiose.
Maybe a slightly improved version of SoTN (Although in my books, Order of ecclessia was the best).
But who asked for all of this... Bloat and Grand scheme and "Big everything".
I was all for low expectations, same budget and scale as konami's metroidvania / castlevania.
If "Ritual of the night" was 6-7 hours of "Curse-of-the-moon" styled game, I would be ... beyond pleased. Same if it was another version of the existing metroidvania games by konami with the same budget and style.
Overall, All the management / budget and graphics issues and complains and what not, Stems from Koji deciding to bloat the project ;
(To the point i didn't sign up for because the stretch goals were added in the later stages of the campaign).
My first red light : I backed the game on the 2nd day of the kickstarter campaign, they only had 5 stretch goals as of yet, And on the 5th day i think, they started adding more and more. When i saw "Massive castle, boss revenge, spin-off title" and all the others, Was my first cue for getting worried.
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Post by Lepstadder on Jan 16, 2019 23:15:53 GMT -6
illasera True. I'm willing to let the visuals pass just for good gameplay. But after all, it IS a demo. Things could AND should be different on the final release. Our taste for "challenge" might have been bent or changed throughout the years. When I first played SotN, I had a hard time. I mean, sure. I was 8 years old that time. Years passed and games such as SotN, HoD, AoS were easy. CotM was arguably the hardest in the GBA games, even now that I am 19. The hardest games were Order of Ecclesia and Portrait of Ruin, but the difficulty of OoE is miles further from PoR because Shanoa played a little differently. This time, I'm sure Koji knows what to do with the game. OoE was the perfect difficulty, but he might town down RotN a little bit to pave way for a Hard Mode. Every time I play a game, I always instinctively go for a hard mode. Unless it's a game that's naturally hard like the Soulsborne series.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jan 17, 2019 6:02:23 GMT -6
I'm still quite excited, but its also easy to see why the project has been getting a bad rep lately. Multiple platforms have been dropped, publishers and developers have come and gone, some poor backers arent getting refunds, the game has been delayed twice etc. Now we know the first delay came from the fact the project was dramatically more successful than what was pitched, and the second delay was to address the many concerns from the beta backer demo. That part is actually very encouraging.
But when my mother or friends ask "Whatever in the world happened to that game you backed ages ago, you backed it for a lot, are you ever going to get it? " its hard not to think about how I've been waiting on the game for over 3 years now and how even if its good, will it live up to that many years of anticipation? For me the main thing that made me flinch was the very noticeable visual downgrade the demo had compared to the trailers with the bright, almost hand-drawn visuals replaced with very muddy, blurry textures It brought up so many memories of so many games that did the same thing. Watch Dogs, Dark Souls 2, No Man's Sky, the list goes on. Companies lie to us constantly about games to sell them.
And while I know that is being addressed it doesn't change the fact that when that was noticed I felt very scared that IGA and the team we trust were not going to be able to deliver and get raked over the coals for it. Wont lie, I backed high enough to get my stuff signed by IGA and Yamane-san because the project and its success brought me a lot of joy in a very, very dark point of my life. So I believed in the project and the people behind it, still do very much so, but the setbacks, sometimes its hard not to think about how awful I'm going to feel if this doesnt pull through.
And yes I know these setbacks are common, we just dont see them, But I cant lie and pretend I haven't been nervous.
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 18, 2019 1:09:23 GMT -6
The delay didn't make me happy, but I can at least understand wanting to make the product better. The real thing is the way they've treated Mac/Linux backers. It is insulting and the communication is frankly terrible from them. 505 seems incompetent at best, and there is still a dearth of information on the project, but this info can't be shared until the release date is announced according to Question . Then can we get a release date to get some actual proof the game is progressing? Nah. Can Mac/Linux backers get refunds? Hell no. Can we get post-launch support for linux at least if the game sells? (There's an expert on forums offering to help pro bono even.) Don't get you're hopes up. Honestly I don't see how people are looking at this as an okay state of things at this stage in the project.
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Post by spideryfingers on Jan 19, 2019 17:54:08 GMT -6
Have to confess that there's a slight doubt creeping into my mind ... even though I'm not quite sure what it could be! I can only compare it to entering a warm room and discovering a cold area
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Post by HylianMetroid96 on Jan 19, 2019 22:18:02 GMT -6
One reason for me is overhyping the game is gonna bring disappointment. This game is not gonna be the next SOTN I feel even with the involvement of veterans of the Castlevania games Iga himself, Michuru Yamane, Ippo Yamada. Even Jake Kaufman being involved along with the recent WayForward, this is no guarantee of a masterpiece. There's always the looming possibility that this could tank despite everyone in it. I mean hell, movies with absolute all-star casts and directors can still fail.
Another and the possibly petty reason is simply that I haven't played any of it myself, I've watched tons of people play it but not being able to play it at all really decreases my own personal hype.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 20, 2019 0:33:20 GMT -6
Oh I guess I didn't answer the original question:
Nothing, pretty much. And I've seen and carefully evaluated pretty much everything that has been said. It's going to be awesome.
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 20, 2019 15:55:15 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm not certain we're really looking at the same picture here. Not that it matters since Linux users got stabbed in the back and I won't be able to play the finished product.
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Post by Lepstadder on Jan 21, 2019 8:41:35 GMT -6
clivethebarker I truly think that Linux/Max users have met an unfortunate fate. But if it means being able to play the game, there are alternative, if not impractical ways to still play the game on Linux despite the lack of native support (such as Wine). Not to imply that I am defending 505 or other involved parties, I merely implore you to at least find a way to play the game. Then again, as a PC/PS4 player, there could be slight bias within me that I am unconsciously displaying. In a similar case, I have become desperate. I borrowed my friend's copy of Persona 5 in order to emulate it since I do not own a PS3. I could buy a copy of the PS4 one, but I'm not planning on spending more. To avoid turning this thread into another Linux related chaos, I want to tell you that if there's a will, there's a way. I have more to tell you, honestly. But I'd rather not speak further, as this forsaken discussion will merely go on eternally. Let us be rational about it.
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Mr. Welldone
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Gandalfred the Off-White
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Jan 21, 2019 10:55:16 GMT -6
Hmmm.
The transparency of the project is the issue. I have a plan that I made two years ago for the company I work for. Holy buckets, did that plan take one hell of a different course.
That's the problem. Many folks haven't written a huge paper, haven't committed to a large, detailed plan that has numerous detailed steps and takes years to complete. They have no scope of the issue caused when what previously was seen as a 'minor' obstacle becomes progress-halting.
Nevermind personalities and petty politics.
This is a new business venture. I have high hopes for it. However, to say it isn't risky and all will be well when the China branch of Artplay closed without explanation or announcement makes me think that all the gravy is in one boat for this one. This will make or break IGA's new venture... from what I understand China was 'the money' for his project, so this seems a bit worrying. The game needs paid developers to happen and this is not a good sign.
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