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Post by RichterB on Jun 12, 2018 23:37:12 GMT -6
I wasn't aware Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night was playable at E3 yet, but according to this article it was. It discusses the gameplay, graphics, and states that there will [likely] be only a digital Vita release [for retail via 505 Games], but that backers should still get their copies.*
(The article's complaints about not having a combo system are irrelevant to me, since I don't want a combo system in a game like this. Combos are overrated in general. However the critiques about the way the game is flowing in its gameplay and visuals are thought-provoking. I will be curious to see what others who get it hands-on will say.)
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 13, 2018 2:37:12 GMT -6
They updated the article, in regards to the digital only stuff. I am also noticing that a lot of people seem to be a bit put off by the graphics, wanting pixels instead....or even that concept art from back when the Kickstarter, well....started. I think some are applying the wariness from MN9 to RotN a bit too much and are expecting it to fail. I mean, it's fine to be cautious, but don't compare this to MN9, when it's obviously not.(not you, specifically, stated that last bit in general) Movements/combat may be clunky, currently, but that'll probably be the final aspect to truly get overhauled and polished up while the rest of the designs are finished.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 13, 2018 3:23:11 GMT -6
The "slow, clunky gameplay" critiques are still the same ones that were tossed around last year. I do not care for them, because the very first demo definitely felt right. It's okay to feel disappointed for the absence of particular innovations to the formula, maybe someone expected those. I didn't. The formula is exactly what I backed the game for.
The point about the designs is completely a matter of preference. I dig most of the monsters and bosses seen so far, with only some of them being a bit underwhelming. But I feel like it's the most subjective point.
As far as the visuals go, I wouldn't call the game ugly, but it's not great either. I expect the overall presentation to benefit a lot from the last tweaks that are usually made near the release date, but I came to terms with the fact that for me personally Bloodstained won't be the prettiest game or even the prettiest metroidvania I own quite some time ago. I do understand very well the complaints someone may have, nonetheless.
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Post by vitakitty on Jun 13, 2018 6:49:18 GMT -6
So what about the Vita physicals? Is there any confirmation for the backer ?
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 13, 2018 7:27:34 GMT -6
I have a thing or two to say about this. THE GAME IS SLOW
That coment i simply gave up on trying to debate or discuss. That complaint exists since the first pre-alpha footage of the game and it is not going to change now. The transition from pixel-art to 2.5d using more or less the same gameplay of other Igavanias made the game look slow, although it has the same pace of Symphony of the Night and others (several videos on youtube can confirm that). There isn't much that it can be done about this. People complaining the game is slow will not change their minds anymore.
LACK OF COMBOS and METHODICAL GAMEPLAY
This is a rare complain that was made by few people and media and it's just a matter of preference. IGA himself responded to that, by saying that in a 2d plataformer, you can ONLY add combos if you greatly increase the enemies's health and the game easily turns into a mechanical chore of hitting enemies countless times to kill each one of them. As IGA said, his games are more focused on methodical gameplay rather than fast-pace. It baffles me that the Destructoid writer complains about the game being methodical, since that is one of the main attributes of Igavania games. That methodical gameplay, where you have an arsenal of weapons / powers / magic to use and must pick and choose what you are going to use at each situation, learning enemies's patterns and slowly crawling around the scenario is EXACTLY what the backers wanted. I'm not saying they can't complain about that, but that is lack of research. People wanted a Symphony of the Night 2, a game with a HUGE METHODICAL and slow-paced gameplay. And that's what people are getting. THE GAME LOOKS UGLY
That is another complaint that isn't going to change. Bloodstained Kickstarter offered backers to choose some graphical options and people decided something along the lines of "semi-realistic backgrounds with thick-washed almost cartoonish enemies". And that's what people are getting. The graphics aren't going to receive any drastical improvement on release, but they can have a huge impact if few bits, like lightning placement, are done right. I always remember this specific picture from E3 2017, from a place that wasn't on any demos (the picture above). If you consider that to be a ugly graphic then...nothing Bloodstained can do NOW will convince you otherwise.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 13, 2018 7:37:52 GMT -6
Definitely not thought provoking. Predictable "why isn't this game like other modern metrdoidvanias" thing we've heard constantly before, and to which I say IGA's Castlevania games are not the same as those both on purpose and for a reason. bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/2855/deconstruction-metroidvania-rising-igavaniaIt also bothers me that they seemingly completely made up that headline about it being digital only. I looked now at the updated version, and I get how some miscommunication may have occurred, but it just reads like he has something against the whole thing and thought it'd be a good click bait.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 13, 2018 7:42:00 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard it does feel kind of malicious, especially because it's a hands on of sort, not a piece of news. It's about the playable build of the game at E3 so making the entire title on the thing that, if true, would be the most negative of the article makes the writer seems like he wants to shovel some dirt on the game for views.
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 13, 2018 8:14:07 GMT -6
So what about the Vita physicals? Is there any confirmation for the backer ? This was answered in the article update, as well as an official comment on the article. Short route, if anyone is too meh to click the article, yes, physical copies are confirmed, BUT.....they are unsure of what will happen currently, due to Sony stopping physical productions on the Vita. purifyweirdshard Agreed, it really does seem to be more of a nitpick article that is trying to find reasons (aside from possible miscom). They are definitely click baity, as well. At least, in the experience I've had with Destructoid. I believe us backers will be receiving the same demo others played, on the 25th, so the community will be better able to judge for ourselves.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 13, 2018 8:18:21 GMT -6
Also reminds me how I never received that print Destructoid magazine they did for Bloodstained with GameFan. Anybody else remember that? lol That's $12 gone forever
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 13, 2018 8:24:09 GMT -6
Pepperidge Farms remembers. And same, never got it and they never handled the issue. At least on my end. Between them and anything Gamespot related, I'd rather find out the real info for myself. That's not to say the game won't/doesn't have problems, as all games have something that's not going to ring true, but don't discourage others from it, either. Been noticing a major rise in people counting chickens before they've hatched.
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Post by akahige on Jun 13, 2018 10:39:06 GMT -6
Ron Gilbert once famously said, although I can't locate the exact quote:
"If I were to make another point and click adventure, people would complain it's not on par with Monkey Island. But what they really mean to say is, it's not on par with their own fond memories and nostalgia of Monkey Island. I cannot compete with that: no one can."
And that's what's happening here to a degree. People are just too enamored with SotN, or rather... their fond memories of it. The revealing passage in Destructoid's piece: "With pixel graphics of those previous games, everything looked fine".
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Post by Sindra on Jun 13, 2018 10:55:43 GMT -6
Having read that article; my thoughts.
The slowness simply comes from transitioning from 2d sprites to 2.5d models. I compared the movements of Rondo of Blood to Dracula X Chronicles and they are exactly the same - they just "feel" clunky due to the difference in perception. The same is looking to be the same with Bloodstained. Miriam is moving the same as Alucard in SotN, but it seems clunkier because of the perception of space and therefore looks less "fluid".
I was one of the ones who wanted cell-shading from the beginning, knowing how DXC looked with softer shading. Unfortunately my preference didn't win out, so it's been a matter of just hoping there's as much detail put into the aesthetics and environments as possible to WOW me otherwise. I'm still not impressed with the design for things like Vepar (concept is awesome; execution is lacking) and there feels like there still need to be a lot of detail and texture added to environments to make them less flat-looking. I wouldn't say things look ugly, but I will agree that in my opinion, it's missing a lot of the depth of even the DSvanias. I pray that changes before final release.
Criticizing about there not being combos in a Castlevania-in-all-but-Name game is just dumb. The only 'Vanias that had combos were PS2 titles in 3D. It's rather asinine.
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Post by RichterB on Jun 13, 2018 13:43:25 GMT -6
Definitely not thought provoking. Predictable... Yeah, by "thought-provoking," I didn't necessarily mean that it was a fresh perspective, I just meant that for an "impressions" article, it shows that there may be more resistance to this project publicly than one might expect. (The more E3 has gone on, the more grateful I am that this project even exists, actually.) We backers, I think, are perhaps able to give a little more leeway and perspective in our views than the average reviewer. Future articles will probably help clarify if this was an outlier. For me personally, I was a Wii U backer also who hasn't been able to go hands-on with it, and have only perused the Kickstarter updates and some of the older demo videos; as such, as the media gets their hands on the latest-built demo first, I am curious of their gut impressions. I haven't felt a full clarity in the updates over what level of the build we have been seeing. I think it's been improving little by little, but I still don't have a clear picture of what the final built will be, visually. So, I was hoping the impressions of the media might give me a sense that it's taken another jump forward. That interplay of curiosity is also why I found it somewhat thought-provoking, in the sense that I may have to keep my expectations more tempered, or at about the level they are now. But as I said from the start, I am with you in the fact that people are warping what these types of games are supposed to be. Combos are not a part of them. It's definitely about approaching each situation as it comes methodically--in that sense, there is a vestige of Classicvania in it, which I am probably a bigger fan of overall.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 13, 2018 14:08:44 GMT -6
The article also didn't mention the music or the voices, which are new additions not present in the original demo. If those are very good, they could make up for whatever flaws the Destructoid guy supposedly found in the graphics. The fact that he didn't see fit to even mention them doesn't give me much confidence in his assessment
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 13, 2018 18:24:02 GMT -6
You know....been thinking. With the recent heat up over what Konami is going to pull, really wonder if they paid this guy off. Wouldn't be unheard of in the industry for a dev to pay off a reviewer. Not saying that's for sure what's going on, but sure as hell keeps seeming more likely, personally.
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Post by gunlord500 on Jun 13, 2018 18:27:00 GMT -6
You know....been thinking. With the recent heat up over what Konami is going to pull, really wonder if they paid this guy off. Wouldn't be unheard of in the industry for a dev to pay off a reviewer. Not saying that's for sure what's going on, but sure as hell keeps seeming more likely, personally. I can see where you're coming from, but I think that may be a little more conspiracy-ish than is really necessary. More like this guy was just half-assing the article and didn't really pay attention to the game. That happens a lot, sometimes journalists just phone it in.
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Post by Nezuto on Jun 13, 2018 18:34:31 GMT -6
Again, it's not like it's unheard of and I did kinda state Not saying that's for sure what's going on, but sure as hell keeps seeming more likely, personally. So, was just my opinion on it, wasn't to be taken as fact.
That being said, I agree with the more likely scenario more, just wouldn't be surprised if Konami tried dirty tactics. Hell, look at what went down with Kojima after PT happened.
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Post by maddogg on Jun 17, 2018 4:58:24 GMT -6
Also reminds me how I never received that print Destructoid magazine they did for Bloodstained with GameFan. Anybody else remember that? lol That's $12 gone forever I eventually got mine in the mail. It was like, a month'ish late, but I eventually did get it. It was in terrible condition too....the magazine was bent at one point, ton on of creases in various pages, and the back cover had a giant crease and had a pretty sizable tear on the bottom of it. Then for a further kick in the funbags, the article itself wasn't all that great.
It definitely was a waste of 12 dollars, 12 dollars that I could have put towards an italian subsandwich or something.
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Post by maddogg on Jun 17, 2018 5:11:17 GMT -6
Having read that article; my thoughts.
The slowness simply comes from transitioning from 2d sprites to 2.5d models. I compared the movements of Rondo of Blood to Dracula X Chronicles and they are exactly the same - they just "feel" clunky due to the difference in perception. The same is looking to be the same with Bloodstained. Miriam is moving the same as Alucard in SotN, but it seems clunkier because of the perception of space and therefore looks less "fluid".
I was one of the ones who wanted cell-shading from the beginning, knowing how DXC looked with softer shading. Unfortunately my preference didn't win out, so it's been a matter of just hoping there's as much detail put into the aesthetics and environments as possible to WOW me otherwise. I'm still not impressed with the design for things like Vepar (concept is awesome; execution is lacking) and there feels like there still need to be a lot of detail and texture added to environments to make them less flat-looking. I wouldn't say things look ugly, but I will agree that in my opinion, it's missing a lot of the depth of even the DSvanias. I pray that changes before final release.
Criticizing about there not being combos in a Castlevania-in-all-but-Name game is just dumb. The only 'Vanias that had combos were PS2 titles in 3D. It's rather asinine.
I could have swore when they had that poll thing about the shading, the full cel-shading option one out over all the others (the one where both the characters and the backgrounds were cel-shaded). I also voted for the full cel-shading option, so I am kind of confused why they decided to not put cel-shading on the environment also. I mean the 2.5D graphics doesn't look bad at all in my opinion when I actually play the game compared to looking at pictures (that is how I felt when I played the old E3 demo. I remember thinking that the movement is still that good ol' igavania game movement that we are so used to over the years, and that the graphics in general weren't bad at all when I am actually playing the game on my own PC/monitor compared to just looking at pictures and youtube videos), but I still hope that they decide to go ahead with that full cel-shading before the game releases or something.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 17, 2018 21:39:00 GMT -6
Having read that article; my thoughts.
The slowness simply comes from transitioning from 2d sprites to 2.5d models. I compared the movements of Rondo of Blood to Dracula X Chronicles and they are exactly the same - they just "feel" clunky due to the difference in perception. The same is looking to be the same with Bloodstained. Miriam is moving the same as Alucard in SotN, but it seems clunkier because of the perception of space and therefore looks less "fluid".
I was one of the ones who wanted cell-shading from the beginning, knowing how DXC looked with softer shading. Unfortunately my preference didn't win out, so it's been a matter of just hoping there's as much detail put into the aesthetics and environments as possible to WOW me otherwise. I'm still not impressed with the design for things like Vepar (concept is awesome; execution is lacking) and there feels like there still need to be a lot of detail and texture added to environments to make them less flat-looking. I wouldn't say things look ugly, but I will agree that in my opinion, it's missing a lot of the depth of even the DSvanias. I pray that changes before final release.
Criticizing about there not being combos in a Castlevania-in-all-but-Name game is just dumb. The only 'Vanias that had combos were PS2 titles in 3D. It's rather asinine. I could have swore when they had that poll thing about the shading, the full cel-shading option one out over all the others (the one where both the characters and the backgrounds were cel-shaded). I also voted for the full cel-shading option, so I am kind of confused why they decided to not put cel-shading on the environment also. I mean the 2.5D graphics doesn't look bad at all in my opinion when I actually play the game compared to looking at pictures (that is how I felt when I played the old E3 demo. I remember thinking that the movement is still that good ol' igavania game movement that we are so used to over the years, and that the graphics in general weren't bad at all when I am actually playing the game on my own PC/monitor compared to just looking at pictures and youtube videos), but I still hope that they decide to go ahead with that full cel-shading before the game releases or something.
Allow me to clear that up for you and Sindra . The only cel-shading actually offered was for Miriam's model and it did win. This often gets confused or mis-remembered for various reasons (a lot happened), but cel-shaded backgrounds that look like how Miriam ended up were never actually an option. So there were two shader votes, and the first was all the way back in 2015, with two options: vs Basically a warmer "2D"-appearing look versus a unique hatched lines approach. You can see more in update 33. Option #1 won very cleanly. It was during this time we gave them a lot of feedback that we wanted a more illustration-like appearance for Miriam and they began heavy work on that. The next shader vote is probably the one most people remember, and it had two character shaders and two background shaders (known as "character 1 or 3" and "background 1 or 3" in a total of 4 combinations). Update 35 (I'll just link the update since there's a lot of images As you can see, the only true "cel shading" look is for "character 3". Background 3 is just a different lighting/color focus. That said, the winner by a large majority was background 3/character 3. A quote from the next update: So there you have it. "Realistic" backgrounds were always pretty much the scope, with only some more minor differences as opposed to the character models' differences.
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