Redogan
Monster-Hunting Igavaniac
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[TI0] Game On!
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Post by Redogan on Jun 11, 2017 11:39:01 GMT -6
I have no problems with her speed. Seems about right. There will probably be a speed-boosting item/move later anyway.
I have no problems with the colors of the summons. The blue aura indicates that it is a crystal shard-powered being.
I have no problems with the shiny, wet rocks. Looks like what I would expect from a cave.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jun 11, 2017 12:05:56 GMT -6
well bloodless could just be the name given to bathory after she died in her cell and became a demon to be summoned back by gebel, its fitting that a sadistic murderer of women that bathed and drank their blood to stay young and pretty be similarly reliant on bathing in it and using it as the source of their power, id say more of what i think the char personality will be like if the backstory is explored and theres interplay, but it would approach potential spoilers for anyone who comes in not well versed on both the historical figure and the book based on her
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 11, 2017 12:31:38 GMT -6
What I have a legitimate concern is the animation speed only, like how fast her actions are - Level 1 Miriam is weak, things are slow in attack.
- An Axe is heavier than a dagger, use the dagger for swift attack.
- I smell a shard request "Attackspeed +100%"
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Post by crocodile on Jun 11, 2017 13:20:57 GMT -6
Some things to consider I feel many in here are missing with regards to issues some people have with the new footage - Most people commentating are describing what they see (which can be influenced by things like Youtube framerates), not what they can play/feel
- Even if the movement speed is the same as classic Igavanias, that doesn't mean things can't look different (sometimes worse). 2D isn't the same as 2.5D and that can affect how things look even if they are technically the same.
- This is the start of the game - there is a reason you tend to gain movement options through any Igavania. I don't think most would want to be stuck at this speed (which is all they can judge right now) for the entire game
- How many people think of Igavanias is influenced by the speedrunning community. That's how most of these games have been exposed in the past few years.
- The last real Igavania was almost a decade ago. People's memories of what things were really like can get hazy
- Further on the point of memory, it's to a revival/homage/spiritual sequel/etc. benefit to aim for what people thought old games were like rather than what they actually were like. A good example is Shovel Knight - inspired by NES classics but is way better most of them both visually and by incorporating elements of modern game design. It learned from the classics, not just copied them.
- If Bloodstained is to be as successful as it can be, its to its interest to build upon classic Igavanias, not just copy them. So "X is just like Y from the past" is fair but maybe not where you want to stop as a game? You want to go beyond in some respects.
- Lots of people who are paying attention to the game aren't backers and don't have much Igavania experience. Even many backers don't have much Igavania experience. So its easy for them to miss how similar movement speed was to previous games.
Not that there isn't some hyperbole out there and what not but I feel the above does color a lot of how people view the game right now and is important to consider
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jun 11, 2017 13:25:49 GMT -6
actually her playing like miriam means that shes using the existing moveset for miriam with an ai tied to it, similar to how doppelganger in sotn used alucards moves and sprites
as for speed people need to remember that framerate affects how you perceive speed, take the same run animation and speed at 20fps and 60 fps and the 60 fps will be smoother but feel way slower, miriam moves at exactly the same speed as alucard, but the greater field of view higher resolution and greater fps tricks you into thinking the game is slower when its not
also has anybody else noticed the lava stage has a curve to it at you run? that makes me super happy for stages that play with your perception of distance and can use this 2.5d styled 3d movement to show off areas in the background that are from other parts of the game youve either been to (giving hints at places you may have missed) or places you have yet to visit (building on the "oooh i wonder when i get to go there!")
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Post by nekurors on Jun 11, 2017 14:16:40 GMT -6
As i have been saying for quite a good time already, it's an optical illusion beause we are used to extremely limited animations from PS1/gba/ds hardware, regarding the animations a super underdetailed animation like these of the other games have just a few frames in animation (which makes you think it's faster, but it's just the engine limitation...) while in Bloodstained not only it is all 3D it has much more frames per attack animation, thus making it felt it takes more (more frames) to end the action.
What is happening is that people are too used to the limited animations from before in a level that higher quality animations looks slow to them, i am pretty sure most will just get used to it. Also i am completely agains't clone the old movements completely, i mean you really want a 3-4 frames animations when you are using Unreal Engine 4? no! But maybe someone can do an experiment testing different framerates creating a gif of Miriam attacking to show how it changes on the so called "animation speed".
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Post by seraph on Jun 11, 2017 17:47:06 GMT -6
It's not the amount of frames, it's "the feel". Alucard has much more frames than Miriam and he didn't look slow. Even without the afterimages Alucard "feels" reasonably fast because his animations have a nice sense of speed. When Alucard runs his hair and cape go up and down in a fast motion, and the alternation between black and red on the cape looks awesome. This can be applied to multiple Igavania protagonists like Soma and Shanoa.   Miriam on the other hand looks "stactic". Her hair and dress are short and don't move. Her pale blue scarf hangs lazily follows her around and when she runs it stands in a almost perfectly still position behind her. Now you might say "that's dumb and i don't believe you" so i'll try a pratical example, here is the 2 characters you can play in the videogame Megaman ZX. Can you guess which one is faster and slower just from looking at the animation? edit: Weapon animation is another thing, you can't just make it "fast", everything swing needs a "wind up". Lords of the Fallen is criticized for having a slow combat but it's animations are actually almost identical to Dark Souls speed, it just looks slow cause there is no "sense of speed" into them. |
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 11, 2017 18:28:50 GMT -6
Miriam on the other hand looks "stactic". Her hair and dress are short and don't move. Worth mention perhaps. There are crystals involved. She is slowly turning to hard edge lolita rock-crystal. I guess a few fragments and structures have already made it's way to the hair. The clothes on the other hand is a different topic. And the shards will most likey make up for it all when new features and animations are applied to or around her. |
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Post by estebant on Jun 11, 2017 19:39:20 GMT -6
I wonder if the game will get an intro movie like the DS games.
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 11, 2017 20:02:08 GMT -6
CastleDan it means it is a old game. Order of Ecclesia itself is a old game, it has almost 10 years. What i'm implying is that, for new players those comparisons doesn't mean much. But i need to reinforce that i do not see a problem with Miriam's speed or the game pace overall. For me, it can stay that way. EDIT: thrashinuva i agree. Igavania games are naturally slow, because they are meant to be enjoyed by exploration, rather than hacking slashing everything. About Shards. That is a deeper discussion. If we take Aria/Dawn of Sorrow (that are more close to the Shard System) we can see some specific design choices, clearly made to help programming things easier. Since this kind of system automatically makes the main character having 100+powers, of course you need to have some ways to make things easier for the dev team.I can see the same at the Shard System. Enchant Shards, for instance, doesn't require any animation, making them easy to create. Summon Shards is almost a category on itself. Trigger Shards were Miriam summons a copy of the enemy. Program-wise, it is easy to do that, because you don't need to create anything, just reuse the same enemy graphic. Familiars may be a bit harder due to programming their behaviour, but, again, you just need to reuse the same enemy graphic. So, for me, it is really strange that they decided to, it seems, create a pattern, by making all summons blueish for some really weird reason. Enemies that are hard to see (like Ape) could had a brighter pallete swap or color, a color filter on top of their original self. They could simply copy the enemy's graphic and change it's color, like they did with Amy. We just saw one familiar, Dullahammer Head, but it uses the same idea, so, i'm fearing all familiars will be like that too. To be fair, i'm more concerned about this than almost anything else i read complains about. The Kickstarter was incredibly clear on what this game was. IGA made no claim that he's making a completely new type of game it was very much riding on the coat tails of what he always made. If people read all of that and hoped for a robust combo system or a character that is as fluid and quick as Strider then they just set themselves up for failure. IGA is making an IGAVANIA not a modern metroidvania, he's been clear about that since day one, so again... the animations, the feel, the gameplay are all apart of that. Call it "old" but he wants to make that kind of game. These people talking about a slow character also seem to forget all the powers you get in the game that naturally speed up your character's movements, it's one of the main reasons he makes the characters slow to begin with. It's just bizarre to me that so many "IGA" fans seem to forget all this. ( not referring to you) Now if the complaint is about her animation when she runs or her jump animation looks odd or isn't fluid enough that's a different story. You can improve the LOOK of her run or her jump but keep it the same speed or feel which they should. |
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Post by hex on Jun 12, 2017 4:10:12 GMT -6
Everything is looking very promising and I can't wait to see them polish this even further!
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jun 12, 2017 6:13:52 GMT -6
I feel that the complaints regarding the graphics are fine, but also I don't feel too worried. 20-30% of the game complete surely means that there is also a good deal of graphical work to do. Most notably post processing. But yeah, since we do have the possibility to do so, it's good to let the team know what can/should be improved.
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 12, 2017 7:30:37 GMT -6
freddythemonkey and CastleDan i know that. I'm just saying that this game is not being built just for the backers and old fans of IGA's work. It is also being built for a wider public, and that public may not be used to the pace Igavania games have. I like the slow pace, however. By the way, i want to go a bit deeper on the whole "this game looks slow" thing. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is more or less at the same pace Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was. That, i think, is undisputed. Specially after Enkeria 's video comparison. Now, i think there is a specific reason, among others, as of why Igavania games have a slower pace. And that is because Igavania games are meant to be exploration games. Let's think about this for a second. What is a Igavania? What this genre means?Igavania is a word coined by the dev team, in respect for IGA, for a genre fans nicknamed "Metroidvania", the fusion between Metroid and Castlevania. Igavania is a genre well defined for exploration of huge areas and finding abilities pro keep progressing into the game. Without a doubt, Metroid is a faster game than Igavanias, mostly because Metroid is a shooter game, and shooter games normally have a faster pace. Now, where that goes for Bloodstained?Bloodstainred is trying to inherit IGA's era of Castlevania's legacy. All Castlevania games, with very few exceptions, have a slow pace and there is a good reason for that. They are exploration games, meant to explore every single crack of the whole scenario. A game crafted for completionists invest countless hours at it, trying to find all weapons, equipment, powers, enemies, every single drop, every single 0.1% of that huge map. The challenge is not only beat the game, is it to explore it. Go back and forth to keep progressing, finding nice surprises and interesting things. I think the slow pace of Igavania games exist for that reason too. By having a slow pace, you can stop, think, look around, admire the game's scenario and take your time. How many times, specially at Symphony of the Night, i caught myself stopping and just...admiring the game's music or scenario. Looking at the map and thinking "okay, now, where should i go next?". Those moments are hard to come by nowadays, with fast-paced hack & slash games. Not a single Igavania game ever had any challenge based on finishing the whole game at a certain time (like Metroid has, by finishing quickly, you are awared with better endings). Why is that? Because Igavania games aren't meant to be played that way. The fast tools it provides are mostly to traverse around the scenario easier, normally late in the game. I even think that being a slow paced game, is one of the things that calls the attention of speedrunners. It is really a challenge to finish such a huge game, that has a naturally slow pace, as fast as possible. Igavania is a genre for completionists due to the huge amout of content it has, for speedurnners due to how slow paced it is, making it a extra challenge to finish it faster and for people in general that enjoys a simple gameplay with enjoyable results. I think all that benefits from having a slow pace. i'm not saying that this was CREATED this way. i'm saying that this is happened to be this way. That was kinda of a brainstorm i just had about the game's slow pace. I may be wrong on all that and i may be seeing too many things. I have a emotional link with the Igavania games and i always try to see a positive light on them. So, my opinion is really biased and not completely rational, most of times. 
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Post by Silver6986 on Jun 12, 2017 8:09:36 GMT -6
Wow! Very happy to see some game play footage and to see how far along this game has come since the demo. Looks to be shaping up quite nicely!
I'm not getting the commentary on the 'floatyness' or speed of Miriam game play wise myself. Looks to be similar to the demo and I don't recall so much of a kerfuffle about this back then? Or maybe my memory fails me.
I'd love to see the little animation that followed Miriam when she moved in the demo brought back (looked like little crystal shards trailing behind her scarf in a stream of blue) but also have it applied to the familiar too. I also like the colour of the familiar because Dullahammer Head stands out like a sore thumb, very easy to keep track of.
Obviously there's still a lot to complete and polish to be applied but all things considered where development is at it's safe to say I'm pretty happy.
Also, just in relation to Pure Miriam's comment about this being an exploration game. I seem to recall reading that people were comparing this to Hollow Knight, which is a faster paced game and from an outsider's perspective who has little to no knowledge of Castlevania or Igavania from looking at the two they could appear at first glance as 'similar' in terms of potential for adventure/exploration.
The issue with people from the outside thinking this is a slow game from the look of it is not ideal, I mean despite whatever was the basis for the Kickstarter ie creating an Igavania style game, if you don't change the formula you end up stagnating, which is bad. When creating something new I believe the ideal would be to take the better elements of modern gaming and fuse them with the core concepts or design of the game being created. Essentially pushing the genre forward and not just recreating the same game with a new coat of paint so to speak.
Time will tell how it all turns out but it's not good when you read commentary like that from the various general gaming communities, we want the game to be a success so we can see more of it in the future, or at least I do!
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Post by CastleDan on Jun 12, 2017 9:06:31 GMT -6
freddythemonkey and CastleDan i know that. I'm just saying that this game is not being built just for the backers and old fans of IGA's work. It is also being built for a wider public, and that public may not be used to the pace Igavania games have. I like the slow pace, however. By the way, i want to go a bit deeper on the whole "this game looks slow" thing. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is more or less at the same pace Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was. That, i think, is undisputed. Specially after Enkeria 's video comparison. Now, i think there is a specific reason, among others, as of why Igavania games have a slower pace. And that is because Igavania games are meant to be exploration games. Let's think about this for a second. What is a Igavania? What this genre means?Igavania is a word coined by the dev team, in respect for IGA, for a genre fans nicknamed "Metroidvania", the fusion between Metroid and Castlevania. Igavania is a genre well defined for exploration of huge areas and finding abilities pro keep progressing into the game. Without a doubt, Metroid is a faster game than Igavanias, mostly because Metroid is a shooter game, and shooter games normally have a faster pace. Now, where that goes for Bloodstained?Bloodstainred is trying to inherit IGA's era of Castlevania's legacy. All Castlevania games, with very few exceptions, have a slow pace and there is a good reason for that. They are exploration games, meant to explore every single crack of the whole scenario. A game crafted for completionists invest countless hours at it, trying to find all weapons, equipment, powers, enemies, every single drop, every single 0.1% of that huge map. The challenge is not only beat the game, is it to explore it. Go back and forth to keep progressing, finding nice surprises and interesting things. I think the slow pace of Igavania games exist for that reason too. By having a slow pace, you can stop, think, look around, admire the game's scenario and take your time. How many times, specially at Symphony of the Night, i caught myself stopping and just...admiring the game's music or scenario. Looking at the map and thinking "okay, now, where should i go next?". Those moments are hard to come by nowadays, with fast-paced hack & slash games. Not a single Igavania game ever had any challenge based on finishing the whole game at a certain time (like Metroid has, by finishing quickly, you are awared with better endings). Why is that? Because Igavania games aren't meant to be played that way. The fast tools it provides are mostly to traverse around the scenario easier, normally late in the game. I even think that being a slow paced game, is one of the things that calls the attention of speedrunners. It is really a challenge to finish such a huge game, that has a naturally slow pace, as fast as possible. Igavania is a genre for completionists due to the huge amout of content it has, for speedurnners due to how slow paced it is, making it a extra challenge to finish it faster and for people in general that enjoys a simple gameplay with enjoyable results. I think all that benefits from having a slow pace. i'm not saying that this was CREATED this way. i'm saying that this is happened to be this way. That was kinda of a brainstorm i just had about the game's slow pace. I may be wrong on all that and i may be seeing too many things. I have a emotional link with the Igavania games and i always try to see a positive light on them. So, my opinion is really biased and not completely rational, most of times. Yeah but I've directly responded to that point. I said most of that criticism is coming from people who claim they've played Igavania games before, and they love his style. I'm not commenting on random people who just happened to wonder into this hype bubble, I'm talking about fans of IGA games who are making complaints about things that have always been apart of his games. The point is, IGA is making the game he wants to make and it happens to be a style that his fans have wanted for a long while. So while I'm sure he'd like to take on new fans too he's not about to sacrifice the style of game he makes to take those people on. He's making an IGAVANIA game and if people don't like his style it's sort of a tough luck type of situation. Floaty, slower characters that get upgrades later on to move quicker is .......his bread and butter. As I said though, it might not be the floaty feel or speed that is truly the issue. It might just be the animations don't fit well, or aren't as detailed as they need to be to make it feel right for people. Something like that could probably be worked on, I just don't think speeding up miriam or killing the floaty feel will ever happen. |
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jun 12, 2017 12:13:52 GMT -6
Dashing / Sprint image  |
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fatihG
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Post by fatihG on Jun 12, 2017 22:22:50 GMT -6
As I mentioned in my previous post. I am really liking the design of the Bloodless boss character. Did my take on it in the form of some fanart. =]  I'ts 1920x1080, so it can be used as a wallpaper as well if anyone wanted to. |
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Post by dareka on Jun 13, 2017 0:23:32 GMT -6
My two cents on the game's, based on what I've seen from the recent updates and E3 demo...
I think that one the whole it's looking fantastic - I really didn't imagine it looking this good when I backed it.
That said, there are obviously still some rough spots here and there, but I mean, come on - we're still a year away from launch.
A lot of the assets are barely being made, and yes, assets are polished right up until the end of development, believe it or not. To see this level of quality only a few months after they changed developers is very encouraging.
As far as the movement speed is concerned... well, to me it both looks fast enough and is fast enough - opinions will differ, obviously, but I think the game's delivering on its promise here. It's not like the kickstarer pitch was "A faster Igavania than any you've ever played!"
My biggest concern is not the game, but the marketing: lot's of people have never played this type of game, and they won't necessarily "get it" without giving it some playtime ... which they won't do if they don't get it at first glance. Therein lies the problem, and I just hope 505 games has a good strategy.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jun 13, 2017 1:18:24 GMT -6
As I mentioned in my previous post. I am really liking the design of the Bloodless boss character. Did my take on it in the form of some fanart. =] I'ts 1920x1080, so it can be used as a wallpaper as well if anyone wanted to. It looks great! Congratulations on such a awesome job. I'm trying to learn how to draw since i don't know when, but my lack of progress made me give up several times  I would love to have reached such a great level. (...) My biggest concern is not the game, but the marketing: lot's of people have never played this type of game, and they won't necessarily "get it" without giving it some playtime ... which they won't do if they don't get it at first glance. Therein lies the problem, and I just hope 505 games has a good strategy. Although this may go against some ideas, i wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to release this new Demo to everyone, and not just backers? Igavania games does had a "unique" feel that includes the whole "game is slow, looks floaty" thing, specially because it is a 20 years old style from Symphony of the Night that IGA never tried to update, for the good and for the bad. If they did that, everyone could, in a legitimate way, have a feel of how a Igavania plays out and maybe, help to eliminate such concerns (or raise them even more). |
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Post by kylestien on Jun 13, 2017 2:03:57 GMT -6
I think it depends on how good the demo is, how big it is, and most importantly, if the team feel confident putting out there or not. If the answers to those is Pretty darn good, Pretty big for a demo, and yes they do feel confident in giving it out, then I would be all for putting it out there for everyone on as many platforms as possible. I know as a PS4 backer I'd love to try the demo there rather then PC, and I would not mind others getting a hold of it. (Although if the PC demo can map to a PS4 controler it's fine too)
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