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Post by Enkeria on Jan 1, 2017 8:07:10 GMT -6
I remember the bosses Legion and Beelzebub from Symphony of the Night. It feelt really nasty but cool to cut down parts of the boss before ending it with a final blow. Animations that are made on bosses, like making them feel weaker have been around since famicom / nintendo 8 bit, mostly making bosses blink red for a while when they had less health like an indicator because they perhaps never had a health-meter. - Health-meter is the "normal" (in terms of difficulty from the animators) to add in.
- Animations is the "hard" part that takes many more hours and manpower to add in. This also included Dracula's tranformation in the Castlevania games, which often was only about him as a final boss, took on shapeshifting to add more flavor.
- Have no health-meter or animation is a way to make the player fumble in the dark. The animation where you actually hit or miss must be added into the game. This style is at a grey-area, it is neither of them, but another way to make the player focus more on the battle, and less about the health.
So there is health-meter on bosses, and there are animations to make the boss seems more angry and weaker. Which would you prefer? Perhaps both? None? Maybe you have your own idea?
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Post by Viftech on Jan 1, 2017 9:54:36 GMT -6
Having the bosses have health-meters naturally isn't something I connect with this kind of game. Maybe have it so that a shard gives you the ability to see a health bar on them and regular enemies. Making so maybe a few of the bosses have some minor animation changes when they are low on health but other than than I don't care to much what they do about it.
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 1, 2017 12:18:39 GMT -6
I personally don't expect to see a Health meter for any Boss in Bloodstained, by default. The only way I could see it is already explained by Viftech above me, if there is a special item or ability gained by fulfilling special conditions. Similarly to Order of Ecclesia, wherein you had to complete Boss Rush Mode under a certain time limit to obtain the "Left Eye of God" item (allowing you to see a Health bar above the heads of every enemy in the game, including Bosses). Other than that, certain Bosses [and normal enemies] could possibly flinch and/or flash a certain color upon being hit by their weakness. Whether said "flinch" animation may interrupt their attacks is up to the animators.
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 1, 2017 12:46:20 GMT -6
Should a shard or a bought ability at the shop (?) make you get 1. Names of the enemies, 2. health-bar and/or 3. A way to organise them in a book for later overview?
THE ALCHEMIST BOOK OF MONSTERS
The book, would be an Alchemy Book about the monsters in mind. With NO health-meter or indication of how much health a boss actually have, this book could answer it.
I have seen older posts, that people wish to see a way to actually buy (with the currency in game) tutorials how to beat the bosses. Perhaps with this tutorial also get to know more about the health, weakness and powers as well as the lore behind them somehow. Like a chapter for the book or collection you gather once you have beaten bosses (and minions)?
This would be another thread perhaps, but all ideas are welcome.
DIFFERENT ANIMATIONS
I voted on "No health-meter, but with minor animation". While having major animations for different types of weapons (elements such as ice, fire etc.) I feel it would take forever to make. A nice indication that you hit the boss would do fine, but keeping us at the dark in how much we need to bash the opponent before it goes to dust is somewhat of a taste. I guess a shard would do the trick, but shards take space. Perhaps it would be for the best to have an ingame setting that we actually unlock while playing to toggle on/off with numbers, or like I wrote above, some kind of book or tutorial ingame that let us know about the strategies and numbers.
MONSTER WEAKNESS
And.. Should a weakness towards an attack be rendered / animated differently? I mean, if we meet Vespar which is an water elemantal. She perhaps really hate fire. Using fire against her will animate / flash or flinch her differently? - The only way to nullify an attack by bosses must be with a weapon they really are weak against AND at the right timing? If not, perhaps add critical numbers in our attacks instead?
So many thoughts guys..
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 2, 2017 15:04:59 GMT -6
Yeah, health bars haven't been in most of IGAs games, just the classicvanias and the PS2 games. That may be partly due to screen space limitations, but no it doesn't seem like a necessity or even something I'd really want...
The animations thing I imagine will be on a per-boss basis if it makes sense for that monster or not. There can also just be moveset/behavior pattern changes too, of course...like say you were fighting Werewolf and Minotaur. They're probably not going to get a whole lot in the way of meaningful visual changes while you fight them, but when they get low on health or when one dies, their moves may become stronger/different.
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exalt9
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Post by exalt9 on Jan 2, 2017 15:14:21 GMT -6
No health meter.
There should be flashes if the PC's attack connects.
Upon connecting an attack, there should be numbers indicating how much damage is dealt to the boss.
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Post by exile on Jan 2, 2017 16:03:44 GMT -6
Mostly what exalt9 said above.
For this type of game, I like the mystery of no health meter. I think it adds excitement. For example, if I'm at low health, but I feel a boss is about to go down, I might choose to go all-out and burn special abilities, potions, etc. Now perhaps I guessed wrong, and the boss is still alive, and then finishes me off with another hit or two. Maybe I guessed right, and I cut the creature to ribbons only seconds before its next hit would have ended me.
I love moments like these.
I do, however, appreciate a compromise for bosses with insane HP pools. Showing either pieces of armor/limbs/etc. falling off, or having an animation that indicates the boss was weakened gives me some gauge of how close I am to victory. For instance, if there's a particularly challenging boss that's killed me 10 times, I'd like to know whether I've even gotten close to killing it so I know that either: a) I just have to play a little better/smarter, or b) I need to either rethink my strategy or level up/find better gear to stand a chance.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 2, 2017 16:12:28 GMT -6
No health meter. There should be flashes if the PC's attack connects. Upon connecting an attack, there should be numbers indicating how much damage is dealt to the boss. Should the numbers be unlocked as a "passive-always-ON" skill? Should the flash be limited to same color/style. Or different when the boss is low at health and/or when using different weapons when you strike the boss? Should a crit-hit be bigger in number and shown in red color, or not?
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 2, 2017 16:14:42 GMT -6
I do, however, appreciate a compromise for bosses with insane HP pools. Showing either pieces of armor/limbs/etc. falling off, or having an animation that indicates the boss was weakened gives me some gauge of how close I am to victory. For instance, if there's a particularly challenging boss that's killed me 10 times, I'd like to know whether I've even gotten close to killing it so I know that either: a) I just have to play a little better/smarter, or b) I need to either rethink my strategy or level up/find better gear to stand a chance. Would you rather get the information from a tome of tutorial how to beat the boss, or do you enjoy grinding to just become stronger, or perhaps find an item that might give you an advantage towards the boss if you keep searching?
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exalt9
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Post by exalt9 on Jan 2, 2017 17:15:26 GMT -6
I think a shard should be required to view damage numbers. A different shard should be required to view a boss's total current health bar, but this shard needs 5 normal rare shards to craft.
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Post by spanishvanguardia on Jan 2, 2017 17:36:35 GMT -6
Every QoL feature you add to boss fights by default, is a potential unlockable to be found in the game through exploration.
No default access to Health Bars, and no animations that change as the boss' HP goes down. Keeps the player continously in check. In fear.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 2, 2017 17:42:02 GMT -6
Every QoL feature you add to boss fights by default, is a potential unlockable to be found in the game through exploration. No default access to Health Bars, and no animations that change as the boss' HP goes down. Keeps the player continously in check. In fear. Only a "flash" to indicate a hit? Even if the hit is perhaps critical?
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Galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 2, 2017 17:53:39 GMT -6
I think a shard should be required to view damage numbers. A different shard should be required to view a boss's total current health bar, but this shard needs 5 normal rare shards to craft. Regarding that first sentence, it would seem that it is by default to view damage numbers, no shard required. The demo shows that, at least when playing as Miriam, damage per hit done to both enemies and the Boss ( Vepar) already show up as floating numbers. Perhaps it will be required in the final game to obtain a "relic" shard of-sorts to view damage, which would certainly be interesting.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 2, 2017 18:04:35 GMT -6
I think a shard should be required to view damage numbers. A different shard should be required to view a boss's total current health bar, but this shard needs 5 normal rare shards to craft. Regarding that first sentence, it would seem that it is by default to view damage numbers, no shard required. The demo shows that, at least when playing as Miriam, damage per hit done to both enemies and the Boss ( Vepar) already show up as floating numbers. Perhaps it will be required in the final game to obtain a "relic" shard of-sorts to view damage, which would certainly be interesting. This is possible!
The Cube of Zoe (called simply Materialize Cube in Japanese versions) is a relic in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night that allows the player to obtain items and Hearts from the candles in the castle. In all other Castlevania games, the ability to collect Hearts from candles, etc. is always present from the beginning of the game. The Cube of Zoe is the first relic found in the game and the first Cube found in any Castlevania game. The Faerie Scroll is a relic that when activated allows the player to see the name of an enemy on the screen when they attack it. Its first appearance was in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, which was also the first game that showed the player the name of the enemy when it was attacked. It is called a Fairy Journal in Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance and the Book of Spirits does the same thing in Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin and Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. This ability is always turned on without the need to collect the relic in these games for alternate characters. It is also an ability that is always on in Castlevania: Circle of the Moon, Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow, Castlevania: Lament of Innocence, Castlevania: Curse of Darkness, and Castlevania: Order of Shadows.
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Post by exile on Jan 2, 2017 21:36:00 GMT -6
I would prefer to figure it out on my own. I don't mind bestiaries that provide lore, but I'm a little hesitant to request that they list specific enemy strategy/weaknesses. It's a tough call. I don't like making the game too easy, but I do enjoy something like:
"The shadow fiends of the eastern isles are known to detest the daylight. It has also been said that they shy away from the larger bonfires during harvest-time celebrations."
Yes, this still indicates said monster has a likely aversion to fire/holy, but at least it's got more charm than just saying:
Shadow Fiend +10% vulnerability to fire +15% vulnerability to holy
When in doubt, I prefer no information at all, unless it's absolutely necessary to avoid senseless frustration. For instance, if there's an especially obscure item, like a rare amulet, which I must equip before I can even damage a boss, I expect there's some indication, even a hint from an NPC, that I'm to do so.
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Galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 2, 2017 22:24:36 GMT -6
I would prefer to figure it out on my own. I don't mind bestiaries that provide lore, but I'm a little hesitant to request that they list specific enemy strategy/weaknesses. It's a tough call. I don't like making the game too easy, but I do enjoy something like: "The shadow fiends of the eastern isles are known to detest the daylight. It has also been said that they shy away from the larger bonfires during harvest-time celebrations." Yes, this still indicates said monster has a likely aversion to fire/holy, but at least it's got more charm than just saying: Shadow Fiend +10% vulnerability to fire +15% vulnerability to holy When in doubt, I prefer no information at all, unless it's absolutely necessary to avoid senseless frustration. For instance, if there's an especially obscure item, like a rare amulet, which I must equip before I can even damage a boss, I expect there's some indication, even a hint from an NPC, that I'm to do so. We can definitely expect Bloodstained's Bestiary to provide lore on the enemies [and Bosses] we face. After they're initially defeated, of course. I personally prefer the way that Aria of Sorrow, Curse of Darkness, and the three DS games displayed the tolerance/weakness part of each Bestiary entry. Alongside lore, drops, and exp. worth, their respective affinities for certain damage attributes are just represented by small picture icons ( which Bloodstained already depicts in the Demo). I just like how it doesn't insult the player's intelligence. You're fully expected to know what those icons represent. NOTE: This has less to do with the addressed topic, but I also like how in both Curse of Darkness and Order of Ecclesia, the various elemental attributes are displayed on the main character menu instead of just in the Bestiary.
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LeoLeWolferoux
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jan 3, 2017 0:02:02 GMT -6
Having the bosses have health-meters naturally isn't something I connect with this kind of game. Maybe have it so that a shard gives you the ability to see a health bar on them and regular enemies. Making so maybe a few of the bosses have some minor animation changes when they are low on health but other than than I don't care to much what they do about it. Or maybe there could be HP counters over enemies already once defeated? I personally would love to see boss re-challenges as a thing.
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exalt9
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Post by exalt9 on Jan 3, 2017 0:51:44 GMT -6
I think a shard should be required to view damage numbers. A different shard should be required to view a boss's total current health bar, but this shard needs 5 normal rare shards to craft. Regarding that first sentence, it would seem that it is by default to view damage numbers, no shard required. The demo shows that, at least when playing as Miriam, damage per hit done to both enemies and the Boss ( Vepar) already show up as floating numbers. Perhaps it will be required in the final game to obtain a "relic" shard of-sorts to view damage, which would certainly be interesting. True, but I think the demo should be "user friendly." However, in the real final version, I think IGA should modify it so that we can give a particular shard a purpose. There should also be a shard that auto-identifies a regular enemy's weakness and a different shard that auto-identifies a boss's weakness.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jan 3, 2017 2:35:57 GMT -6
i'm going to be against what almost everyone posted here, i think.
Like in the demo, when you hit a enemy, you can see it connected, by the sound it makes , some blood gushing out, small flash and things like that. For me, that is more than enough. The game already shows damage indicators by numbers. Adding bars, flashy animations and things like that just pollute the game's aestetics and break the immersion.
Let me detail what i think:
GENERAL BATTLE INFORMATION
I like what the demo shows and would add nothing else. When you hit, your damage numbers float and the enemy may flash a little. No health bar for bosses at all. Some enemies and bosses can have different animations, like when Seama moves and arcs itself when you land a hit. Or when you hit Dullahamer's "head" it gushes blood, indicating it's a weak point or Buer that jumps around when hit. Some enemies may have parts being destroyed and such. I'm okay with small animations for weak points (like in Dullahammer) or weak attributes, but that's it. In my honest opinion, anything else would just pollute the game's visuals.
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Enkeria
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Post by Enkeria on Jan 3, 2017 6:54:20 GMT -6
i'm going to be against what almost everyone posted here, i think. Like in the demo, when you hit a enemy, you can see it connected, by the sound it makes , some blood gushing out, small flash and things like that. For me, that is more than enough. The game already shows damage indicators by numbers. Adding bars, flashy animations and things like that just pollute the game's aestetics and break the immersion. Let me detail what i think: GENERAL BATTLE INFORMATION
I like what the demo shows and would add nothing else. When you hit, your damage numbers float and the enemy may flash a little. No health bar for bosses at all. Some enemies and bosses can have different animations, like when Seama moves and arcs itself when you land a hit. Or when you hit Dullahamer's "head" it gushes blood, indicating it's a weak point or Buer that jumps around when hit. Some enemies may have parts being destroyed and such. I'm okay with small animations for weak points (like in Dullahammer) or weak attributes, but that's it. In my honest opinion, anything else would just pollute the game's visuals. Flashy animations are on Vespar I believe, the monster growls in an animation when hit enough times (I believe). And those damage numbers floating might be a demo-thing. So perhaps it is an relic / shard / item you obtain very early on that allows you to see the numbers. Revisit old bosses and enemies will allow you for the usage as in the demo maybe. If you use fire on a Morte, it bubbles up and explodes. If you cut it, the head "just" falls off. Those animations bring more than just a "flash" of it and same death-animation. While those kind of animations really aren't what I was asking about, it might be a cool way to end an opponent with different elemental attacks to see the outcome, while just attacking (critical or not) a flash and maybe even blood gush would do the trick. I like that. When it comes to bosses however, they already have a huge set of animations and movement around a larger area. Those are tricky. Killing of a boss with you actually cut down piece by piece (Legion / Granfalloon) is very satisfying in my opinion. Having numbers add in could be fine too but no health-meter. I agree on this. The numbers however is something I personally never see, I am blind when it comes to those numbers. I have been playing many games, and numbers that stick out are the ones attached on me when I am about to die or get poisoned. Other than that, I never see them. In games like Diablo III, the damage-numbers are huge. I ended up just toggle them off since I never saw them.
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