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Post by allooutrick on Dec 14, 2016 14:29:42 GMT -6
A concern I've heard brought up due to the usage of procedural generation is that rooms may be re randomized each time they're entered. If anyone is having that concern then I imagine the team is using a seed that is generated with each time a new game file is made. With a seed they can tell procedural generation to do this for this room every time it's entered.
That's speculation but something to that effect seems likely. Also if somebody mentioned this already then I must've overlooked it.
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Astaroth
Fifty Storms 
What a wonderful night to have a curse...
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 14, 2016 14:56:03 GMT -6
yes and no, while that is possible they would have to include the randomizer and seed generator in the final game, what theyre actually doing however is they have a set seed in their control settings, and unless they tweak settings to change how that seed is expressed within the program OR change the seed every render will be the same each time
now, if you wanna talk the roguelike mode, including the randomizer and a seed generator to change up everything based on the parameters set forth in the randomizer program is exactly the scenario you are talking about, but again this is an extra mode, not the main game
to clarify further, the seed is what sets everything in stone, 12 different games played with the same seed will be the same, its how they can have zelda randomizer races
hopefully that answered the concern ^_^
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LeoLeWolferoux
Wielder of Emptiness
Fifty Storms
[TI0] ...an intellectual with no room for feelings...
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Dec 14, 2016 22:33:21 GMT -6
Why do the updates always appear when I'm at work...?
Anyway! I'm super glad about this; I think it's a very good choice on IGA's part. Because yes, hand-drawing everything would simply take too much time, and if you can create an environment that seems almost alive with this gradual destruction effect, go for it. (If it takes less resources, even the more better) At first I was very confused about exactly what the video was that I saw; I had only seen the video, as I was surfing YouTube at work, and I'm glad that I got to read the little memo that went with it on the official kickstarter page. I gotta say, that things are looking VERY clean, and I am getting my usual bloodstained heebie-jeebies! Another thing is I'm glad that IGA is using as much of the demo feedback as he can, and trying to integrate as many of the changes as he can. I really feel like a part of this, and I'm glad everyone else can, too...!
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Post by Scars Unseen on Dec 15, 2016 1:24:43 GMT -6
yes and no, while that is possible they would have to include the randomizer and seed generator in the final game, what theyre actually doing however is they have a set seed in their control settings, and unless they tweak settings to change how that seed is expressed within the program OR change the seed every render will be the same each time now, if you wanna talk the roguelike mode, including the randomizer and a seed generator to change up everything based on the parameters set forth in the randomizer program is exactly the scenario you are talking about, but again this is an extra mode, not the main game to clarify further, the seed is what sets everything in stone, 12 different games played with the same seed will be the same, its how they can have zelda randomizer races hopefully that answered the concern ^_^ To continue along this thread of the conversation, although I don't believe they stated one way or another, it is highly unlikely that the procedural generation is going to occur at runtime, and possibly not client side at all(except for the aforementioned roguelike mode). Having it generate textures at runtime means pointlessly wasted CPU cycles and RAM every time it happens, meaning longer load times. That's bad enough on PC, but on more resource starved consoles, it could cause significant performance issues, making it an easy point of optimization to get rid of. Resource issues aside, actual randomization in the main game is the enemy when you're trying to create the illusion of a handcrafted look. Randomization means unpredictable results, which can lead to some areas being incongruous with the intended look of the game. Instead, it is far more likely that this is simply a tool in the developers' belt, and not something meant to be used by the client at all. This is further supported by the fact that Mana has reported them tweaking the generation to provide results more in line with their intentions. And if the intention is for the results to be consistent across all clients, it just makes sense to bake the results into the game once the desired look has been achieved. |
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Elfina Ashfield
The Surreal Stargazer
Ancient Legion 
[TI0]Unarchived Nova
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Dec 15, 2016 4:06:37 GMT -6
yes and no, while that is possible they would have to include the randomizer and seed generator in the final game, what theyre actually doing however is they have a set seed in their control settings, and unless they tweak settings to change how that seed is expressed within the program OR change the seed every render will be the same each time now, if you wanna talk the roguelike mode, including the randomizer and a seed generator to change up everything based on the parameters set forth in the randomizer program is exactly the scenario you are talking about, but again this is an extra mode, not the main game to clarify further, the seed is what sets everything in stone, 12 different games played with the same seed will be the same, its how they can have zelda randomizer races hopefully that answered the concern ^_^ To continue along this thread of the conversation, although I don't believe they stated one way or another, it is highly unlikely that the procedural generation is going to occur at runtime, and possibly not client side at all(except for the aforementioned roguelike mode). Having it generate textures at runtime means pointlessly wasted CPU cycles and RAM every time it happens, meaning longer load times. That's bad enough on PC, but on more resource starved consoles, it could cause significant performance issues, making it an easy point of optimization to get rid of. Resource issues aside, actual randomization in the main game is the enemy when you're trying to create the illusion of a handcrafted look. Randomization means unpredictable results, which can lead to some areas being incongruous with the intended look of the game. Instead, it is far more likely that this is simply a tool in the developers' belt, and not something meant to be used by the client at all. This is further supported by the fact that Mana has reported them tweaking the generation to provide results more in line with their intentions. And if the intention is for the results to be consistent across all clients, it just makes sense to bake the results into the game once the desired look has been achieved. Cannot agree more on this. So, in conclusion: Procedural generation is a DEVELOPMENT technique to help devs generate massive assets / game resources (for example, pillars, stones, trees, ceiling, objects' geometry even their textures), once devs get assets they want, they'll simply make these assets into the game. The only difference between this and hand-drawn assets is procedural generation uses computer, the hand-drawn method is purely "generated" by artists. Ultimately these resources will be baked into game as content data and won't be changed unless you mod them. It's not the same as random generator in those rougelike games that'll change some parameter every time you load the game up. |
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
Fifty Storms
Amzeer - Aurora of Rebirth
Posts: 1,908
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 16, 2016 20:47:00 GMT -6
ABOUT THE HALLWAY
Although this update is about the usage of procedural generation, i couldn't do this anlysis without commenting how gorgeous this hallway is. We all know this is inside the first area of the castle and take a good look at all the details.
1) The celling's architecture is gorgeous, with all those arcs and pillars.
2) The pillars cracks are nicely detailed.
3) The backer's pictures blend perfectly with the whole aestetics. If the backer's pictures will really look like that (even if that's just a placeholder) i think no one will have any concern if the pictures will look out of place.
4) The yellow moon in the background, partially hidden by an outer wall.
5) How deep the background is! You can see a detailed floor that goes all the way back to some tall trees and what it looks like two walls blending together to envelop the castle. I said this sometimes before, and i'm going to say it again. One of the things i like most on Igavanias are the background. IGA and his team gave so much details on them, that i always felt like i wanted to play there too. And i feel the same. How cool would be if we could go to the other side and walk around those trees, killing demons close to the castle walls and the yellow moon... I already said it would be awesome if a eventual second castle could be played at the background scenarios of the first one... Of course, i'm just dreaming, the game will be awesome without any of this.
CLOSING COMMENTS
That was a great addition and a great update.
Just wanted to say I agree with this. Update with the text made it whole, hope IGA are feeling well. |
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
Shardbinder
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
Posts: 1,068
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 18, 2016 6:31:31 GMT -6
ABOUT THE HALLWAY
Although this update is about the usage of procedural generation, i couldn't do this anlysis without commenting how gorgeous this hallway is. We all know this is inside the first area of the castle and take a good look at all the details.
1) The celling's architecture is gorgeous, with all those arcs and pillars.
2) The pillars cracks are nicely detailed.
3) The backer's pictures blend perfectly with the whole aestetics. If the backer's pictures will really look like that (even if that's just a placeholder) i think no one will have any concern if the pictures will look out of place.
4) The yellow moon in the background, partially hidden by an outer wall.
5) How deep the background is! You can see a detailed floor that goes all the way back to some tall trees and what it looks like two walls blending together to envelop the castle. I said this sometimes before, and i'm going to say it again. One of the things i like most on Igavanias are the background. IGA and his team gave so much details on them, that i always felt like i wanted to play there too. And i feel the same. How cool would be if we could go to the other side and walk around those trees, killing demons close to the castle walls and the yellow moon... I already said it would be awesome if a eventual second castle could be played at the background scenarios of the first one... Of course, i'm just dreaming, the game will be awesome without any of this.
CLOSING COMMENTS
That was a great addition and a great update.
Just wanted to say I agree with this. Update with the text made it whole, hope IGA are feeling well. thank you =) |
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
Fifty Storms
Amzeer - Aurora of Rebirth
Posts: 1,908
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Oct 27, 2024 12:45:42 GMT -6
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Enkeria
Amzeer - Aurora of Rebirth
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Post by Enkeria on Dec 18, 2016 9:26:45 GMT -6
I have started to listen on the podcast here, and also by reading the forums I feel the IGA game are in better hands than expected. What you guys want, details you have noticed and suggestions are mostly great ideas. I really feel that this game can become a new beginning for IGA, a journey I am happy to follow with you guys.
All these updates are also very "explosive", even though it is short, they have lots of layers and details. I really hope they continue this road and take a peek on these forums whenever they can. Mostly I hope XombieMike will continue to collect the best suggestions, questions and ideas from the community to the developers of Bloodstained.
With the latest update, I won't lie... It took a while before I understood what it was all about. Sure I saw changes, but didn't know about the random coding behind it. If this is a thing on most of the rooms, I hope we see the system grow and attach more than just environment. Random enemies, loot and obsticles just to mention a few. I really like this feature. It opens up so much for discussion!
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Astaroth
Fifty Storms
What a wonderful night to have a curse...
Posts: 1,213
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Jan 4, 2022 11:47:39 GMT -6
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What a wonderful night to have a curse...
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 18, 2016 10:22:27 GMT -6
With the latest update, I won't lie... It took a while before I understood what it was all about. Sure I saw changes, but didn't know about the random coding behind it. If this is a thing on most of the rooms, I hope we see the system grow and attach more than just environment. Random enemies, loot and obsticles just to mention a few. I really like this feature. It opens up so much for discussion! thats what roguelike mode will be >P |
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BalancedHydra
Pillow Weapon Advocate
Master Alchemist
[TI1]
Posts: 572
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Post by BalancedHydra on Dec 18, 2016 10:25:08 GMT -6
I have started to listen on the podcast here, and also by reading the forums I feel the IGA game are in better hands than expected. What you guys want, details you have noticed and suggestions are mostly great ideas. I really feel that this game can become a new beginning for IGA, a journey I am happy to follow with you guys. All these updates are also very "explosive", even though it is short, they have lots of layers and details. I really hope they continue this road and take a peek on these forums whenever they can. Mostly I hope XombieMike will continue to collect the best suggestions, questions and ideas from the community to the developers of Bloodstained. With the latest update, I won't lie... It took a while before I understood what it was all about. Sure I saw changes, but didn't know about the random coding behind it. If this is a thing on most of the rooms, I hope we see the system grow and attach more than just environment. Random enemies, loot and obsticles just to mention a few. I really like this feature. It opens up so much for discussion! That is pretty much Iga's method of operation. Even the smallest of rooms and stuff are loaded with details. |
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quack
yey