Elfina Ashfield
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Dec 13, 2016 20:26:48 GMT -6
This update is even juicier than I expected! The details on the pillar is cool! Definitely kept the long hallway from being bland and lifeless, love that touch. I prefer the original ceiling though lol, but that's only my opinion and I'm not gonna complain much about that  Take care, IGA! |
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Post by Jango on Dec 13, 2016 21:46:30 GMT -6
I don't really agree with this, and it doesn't have anything to do with a lack in trust in IGA. To be honest, if IGA had gone the typical Japanese developer route of just keeping quiet about everything and giving us the game he had in mind, I would have been okay with that. I've loved his games so far, and I'm sure I'll love Bloodstained as well. But if he's going to show us the game in progress and ask for our feedback, then I think exchanges like this are both inevitable and necessary. When IGA solicited our input on the visual presentation of the game back with the shaders, it was fantastic, and it helped the community feel that they were part of the game rather than just consumers of it. But too much of that, and it could start giving the impression that we are driving the game's development(even if that isn't the case at all) to a larger degree than some people who wanted IGA's vision come to life would be comfortable with. In light of that, it's good that occasionally the community gets "put in its place" as it were by a demonstration that yes, IGA absolutely knows what he's doing. That sometimes our concerns are unfounded. It helps instill confidence that this definitely going to be IGA's game, and that this is a very good thing. So much this. It's not even getting put in your place but people need to stop acting like developers we love can do no wrong either. We don't need to act like developers we love are absolutely perfect and can't get off course or mess up. The benefit of a Kickstarter is that both parties can be honest and transparent with each other. If there are concerns the developers can directly address them and ease worries, if the dev gets too off course, we can help guide a bit when need be. Being content with everything doesn't make the best product it's good to be honest and open even IF you might be wrong. The fact is, there's people in the general public that may have also had these concerns and because of this upfront update it'll serve the community and iga even better in the long run. IGA comes off way better being open and explaining things when he can then not doing it and things snowball. You're right. Because of his offhand comment about procedural generation tools there were a number of people that misinterpreted that and the snowball began to build. You can see how someone in Iga's shoes might take note of that and be more careful about what development specifics he mentions from now on. |
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JoJo
Most Bizarre Adventurer
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[TI1] I'm Fabulous!!
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Post by JoJo on Dec 13, 2016 22:26:08 GMT -6
From this update, I think I can assume that you can turn off the procedural generations
since I think most of us thought the procedural generation of maps first
but hey, maybe it's only for the single player campaign mode since we have a mode of roguelike dungeon, which will make full use of procedural generation
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Dec 13, 2016 22:50:41 GMT -6
Great update! Like others have said, good work Fangamer Steve This really ought to assuage a lot of concerns folks were having, and it gives us a good idea of just how much attention IGA pays to even the little details! |
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BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Dec 13, 2016 22:50:45 GMT -6
Ultimately, doing stuff like this is extremely important given the condition of the gaming market and its relationship with the public. We've had so much controversy lately. I wont go into specifics, if only to avoid ruffling feathers, but between all the documented cases of developers manufacturing fake footage and selling their products on lies, failing to implement features promised during development, knowingly selling games that dont work because they can just "patch it later" etc.; has led to trust in the industry being at an incredible low. We're all affected to some degree, to the point where whenever a game dev says anything or even SHOWS something my knee jerk reaction is to not trust it, or at he very least not let my hopes get up, because I have almost no faith that what I'm being told will happen.
The point of that long rant? People do not trust game developers anymore, and IGA taking steps to stay in touch with his fans and directly address concerns, such as the use of Procedural Generation, in this volatile climate could not be more important.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 14, 2016 0:06:55 GMT -6
So it's used more in the visual variety of things IN the environment. Not for generating what's in the actual environment? The latter was my concern. I want the artists to use THEIR creativity to populate what is IN a room and how the room is laid out, I have no problem with procedural elements dictating how those items look within the room. ( although i think i prefer the less dirty roof of the prior ) Yes! It's as we had said before and Mana confirmed in the other thread, and shown clearly in this video. I saw you had asked again in the shoutbox recently... Trust me, Dan.  I'll give you my collector's box if I'm wrong: they're not going to do more than what they've said with this. No designing of the actual level itself, just filling in details of what was put in the room as stated. |
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Olrox
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IGA Take my energyつ ◕_◕ ༽つ
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Post by Olrox on Dec 14, 2016 0:21:11 GMT -6
Now this what I call a quality update, technical details about the game and a little demo to show them. 10/10 even if we at the forum already knew how procedural generation was going to be used thanks to mana, it is good so the normal backers know it. Good job.
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Mana
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Post by Mana on Dec 14, 2016 1:22:36 GMT -6
Hey there! As always, thanks for all the responses. Fangamer Steve did an incredible job with the comparison video! We've noticed we made the ceiling too dirty after sending in the video, but I think it proves a point. When we caught onto that, we all thought, "Well, we just need to adjust some sliders. Want to do that now?" and adjustments can be made in mere seconds. I personally feel some parts are too much (ceiling) and we definitely need more adjustments. I've had the privilege to give some aesthetic suggestions during the environment adjustments and it's been really great seeing the improvements. JoJo Hm, I can't give you definite answer but it's highly unlikely to have on off option for it. The only reason we have the non-procedural version of this area is because this was made before we decided to change development structure - creating hand drawn texture. I believe the ship and this area were some of the few that already implemented hand-drawn textures. If we were to create an option to switch it off, then we would have to first create the whole game with hand-drawn texture AND another with procedural generation. If we take off the procedural generation of the grime texture of the pillar, it would just be a smooth solid object. |
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 14, 2016 1:25:17 GMT -6
This is a very good and interesting update. I remember the thread about Procedural Generation gaining so much attention and discussion. It is good to know that IGA and team decided to explain things better (and i feel thrilled that my humble thread helped them to decide on explain things like that). So, without further ado, my analysis on the update. ABOUT BLOODSTAINED'S ENVIRONMENT
IGA said that they made a visual update on Bloodstained's environment because some players at E3 got confused as to what was plataform and what was background scenario. I personally didn't had that problem, but i saw some youtubers having it, so, that's a good idea to make everything easier to see and to enjoy. We can easily see that on the video that the update has showed us. ABOUT PROCEDURAL GENERATION
IGA said that, without prodecural generation, they need to repeat the assets and looks of them all the time, because doing everything by hand and making it look unique would be absurdly time consuming and resource-consuming. We can easily see that on their first example of how the hallway would look without procedural generation. The celling has repeated patterns of the bricks, the pillars have the same exact cracks and the pillars at the background have the same aspects. So, basically, procedural generation helps making everything looks more unique and natural, exactly by randomizing and generating different details over the same assets. I don't think i need anything else ot convince me. ABOUT IGA FOCUSING ON OUR CONCERNS
I really like that IGA and team decided to talk about this. The usage of procedural generation got a lot of people (me included) a little concerned, specially because we aren't all expert on those things, and many people started to think that the game would look generic and plain. Someone at this forum said once, that backers are considered part of the team, in a way, so, they need to give us update about the game's progression and what they are using to do it, so, it's really cool that they actually decided to do this. ABOUT THE HALLWAY
 Although this update is about the usage of procedural generation, i couldn't do this anlysis without commenting how gorgeous this hallway is. We all know this is inside the first area of the castle and take a good look at all the details. 1) The celling's architecture is gorgeous, with all those arcs and pillars. 2) The pillars cracks are nicely detailed. 3) The backer's pictures blend perfectly with the whole aestetics. If the backer's pictures will really look like that (even if that's just a placeholder) i think no one will have any concern if the pictures will look out of place. 4) The yellow moon in the background, partially hidden by an outer wall. 5) How deep the background is! You can see a detailed floor that goes all the way back to some tall trees and what it looks like two walls blending together to envelop the castle. I said this sometimes before, and i'm going to say it again. One of the things i like most on Igavanias are the background. IGA and his team gave so much details on them, that i always felt like i wanted to play there too. And i feel the same. How cool would be if we could go to the other side and walk around those trees, killing demons close to the castle walls and the yellow moon... I already said it would be awesome if a eventual second castle could be played at the background scenarios of the first one... Of course, i'm just dreaming, the game will be awesome without any of this. CLOSING COMMENTS
That was a great addition and a great update. We got a deep explanation of how they are using procedural generation, plus we got to see that gorgeous castle entrance hallway again. Also, get well soon IGA! |
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Post by wissenschaft on Dec 14, 2016 1:44:50 GMT -6
I would say the more apt comparison for backers would be investors. Backers of a kickstarter have literally invested their money in the project and so should be entitled to some updates. This doesn't mean Iga has to address everyone's concerns all the time but the fact that he is paying attention to this forum (or more likely the community manger informs him of our concerns) is much appreciated.
Thank you, Iga. Get well soon.
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ReySol
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Post by ReySol on Dec 14, 2016 2:26:18 GMT -6
What an amazing update! Now, here we have a real meat from the development desk and it is all showed to us, and explained by IGA himself. It makes me really happy to see it and observe with all of you how the game is getting better every day. We can now understand the procedural generation, how and why it is used. The background looks gorgeous, more alive and less generic, it is getting its soul. Thank you all for giving this gift to us, it is highly appreciated. The waiting of Bloodstained is so exciting with these updates and discussions that are lead here. Mana, I agree with your observations, I am sure your esthetic suggestions are very valuable. I was expecting to see the news about the Switch version, as well. Now that many games are being "switched" from Wii U to NS, and people are accepting it well, IGA will see things more clearly. The possibility of the NS version is very exciting and each day I want it more. IGA, get well soon! |
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Ryngar Acia
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[TI2] ...and Another..
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Post by Ryngar Acia on Dec 14, 2016 3:18:33 GMT -6
Pretty nice update. Admittedly, I had no idea what procedural generation was, or what it meant for the game, before this. Cool stuff. :D
Also, get well soon, Iga. :)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 6:05:57 GMT -6
I just wanna take a moment to say: I told you so. |
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 14, 2016 7:23:25 GMT -6
I just wanna take a moment to say: I told you so. The spoiler definitely fits your personality quite well. |
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JoJo
Most Bizarre Adventurer
Master Alchemist
[TI1] I'm Fabulous!!
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Post by JoJo on Dec 14, 2016 7:31:31 GMT -6
I just wanna take a moment to say: I told you so. The spoiler definitely fits your personality quite well. He is the threat to public morals |
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BalancedHydra
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Post by BalancedHydra on Dec 14, 2016 8:20:27 GMT -6
The spoiler definitely fits your personality quite well. He is the threat to public morals public morals or SJW morals? |
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JoJo
Most Bizarre Adventurer
Master Alchemist
[TI1] I'm Fabulous!!
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Post by JoJo on Dec 14, 2016 8:33:09 GMT -6
He is the threat to public morals public morals or SJW morals? Both? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 9:16:57 GMT -6
Oh stop it guys, you're making me blush.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 14, 2016 10:17:24 GMT -6
Everyone knows I was right all along. If it wasn't for me being overly paranoid we wouldn't have this beautiful video right now for us to look at. Along with Iga's well written, and uber informative passage of words.  |
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Galamoth
Ancient Legion
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 14, 2016 10:24:08 GMT -6
I wish Lord IGA a swift recovery, and congratulate Fangamer Steve and Mana on another meritorious deed. I never doubted for even a second that Procedural Generation was being used wisely for the fine details in the castle's environs. You've certainly cleared it all up for everyone with this Update now. The only people that could possibly still be against the use of PG, or hold it in contempt, are those who simply haven't closely kept up with all of the Kickstarter Updates or watched any Development Update Videos on YouTube. This may sound incredibly optimistic, especially since we're still in 2016 and development of this game is still early, but I'll just go ahead and say this; It is my opinion that, at this point, the "failure" of Bloodstained is improbable. This project is a guaranteed success. IGA may be a humble man, but I think he could allow himself to feel a little prideful this time. |
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I'll give you my collector's box if I'm wrong: they're not going to do more than what they've said with this. No designing of the actual level itself, just filling in details of what was put in the room as stated. 
