Astaroth
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What a wonderful night to have a curse...
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 13, 2016 15:21:10 GMT -6
Kickstarter Update linkAfter reading some of the responses to last month's development update, IGA thought it might help address some of the concerns you expressed if he explained the ways in which he plans to use procedural generation to create a bigger, more interesting game. Then he caught a bad cold and lost his voice. But—not to be dissuaded—he sent us a long text update on the process to go with this video footage of the game running with and without procedurally generated environmental features. So here's IGA: Hello everyone! This is IGA. It's chilly here in Japan and I've caught the cold. My throat is sore and I've lost my voice. But I'd like to give you an update regarding the environment of Bloodstained. First, we are going to change the way the environment is visually represented. Watching people play the E3 demo, I could see that players often didn't know where a platform was, or whether the thing they were looking at was a wall or something they could pass through. We've improved visibility by making the "front" side of platforms brighter, and more distant parts of the environments darker. This is actually not the first time I've talked about the change in visual representation. During the time we've announced the delay, I talked about how we needed to change our environment-building method in order to work more efficiently. (You can find more about this in the IGN interview.) After that article mentioned procedural generation, lots of backers in the forum expressed their concerns. To address those concerns, I'd like to explain our reasons for changing the development process and explain the way procedural generation will be used in the final product. Before, we worked on environments on a texture-by-texture basis, which meant that each area required the individual time and attention of skilled artists and designers. To use our team more wisely, our new process is based more on physics, and makes use of procedural generation. Naturally, you might be asking, what kind of procedural generation? How will it be used, and for what? To put it simply, we're using it to auto-generate environmental grime and destruction effects. We put together some comparison screenshots and video for this update to demonstrate the effect. On each image, the top is before procedural generation, and the bottom is after. Until now, roughness and shadows were drawn on the texture map to add surface texture (shadows, dirt marks, etc. on the albedo map). As a result of that process, the same pattern appears to loop in various places. Trying to increase the variation on a hand-drawn process like that would require a disproportionately large amount of resources. The "after" image is using our procedural generation process. In this case, we're merging procedurally generated dirt marks and surface textures. As a result, we can produce an asymmetrical visual output easily and efficiently. By automatically generating destruction, we can even create variation among the same assets. (Take a look at the red circle in the comparison image.) The green circle shows the procedurally generated dirt marks that help us avoid a continuous, looping look. Since we're releasing this game on high-spec machines, I felt it was necessary for the graphics to offer a high level of detail. Next month, or I should say, near Christmas, I hope to show you a new environment made using this process... Hopefully that sheds a little light on the Bloodstained development process! We're looking forward to showing you the environment IGA hinted at in the close of this message.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 13, 2016 15:25:20 GMT -6
So it's used more in the visual variety of things IN the environment. Not for generating what's in the actual environment? The latter was my concern. I want the artists to use THEIR creativity to populate what is IN a room and how the room is laid out, I have no problem with procedural elements dictating how those items look within the room. ( although i think i prefer the less dirty roof of the prior )
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[TI0] Real Time VFX all day long!
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Post by Thomas on Dec 13, 2016 15:26:39 GMT -6
YES!
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Astaroth
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What a wonderful night to have a curse...
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Post by Astaroth on Dec 13, 2016 15:29:01 GMT -6
the good news is that can easily be tweaked by changing the opacity of some dirt splotches so that you get a better range of clean, deep mortar lines and darker brick among the cobwebs and dirt cake layers
also notice all the detritus strewn about the room in the procedural pic? >P
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Dengojin
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Post by Dengojin on Dec 13, 2016 15:29:06 GMT -6
This looks really impressive, I was a bit worried to get those repatitive hallways, but not anymore!
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 13, 2016 15:33:42 GMT -6
The repetition will come in the form of a poor castle layout and not populating the actual rooms with enough DIFFERENT stuff if anything something we can't judge till we actually see a decent bit of a location. It's nice to see variety within one location though, that's reassuring.
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Scuttlest
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Post by Scuttlest on Dec 13, 2016 15:41:12 GMT -6
The first thing that catches the eye is that the No Procedural Generation has all the pillars looking more or less the same. Good condition.
Whereas, with Procedural Generations, some pillars are quite different. Some are in good condition, others are jagged, and some look to be badly damaged. I really like that.
But something I only noticed only 3/4th through the video is that with Procedural Generation, we're also getting nice clumps of debris in the background that breaks up some of the visual monotony.
I like what I see here, and I'm interested in seeing what it will be like to see this effect in non-hallway rooms.
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BloodyTears92
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Dec 13, 2016 15:52:35 GMT -6
An excellent update if I do say so myself. This should assuage concerns people had that we'd get poor environment and room design. Using Procedural Generation in this fashion is great. Its really efficient and save the team a ton of time that would have to be spend crafting details like that onto the environment by hand. The gameplay video was an especially nice touch, the side-by-side was great to see in motion.
The concept of the Update itself is great too: addressing concerns shows an attentiveness to the community's concerns, and that is always welcome.
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Post by dareka on Dec 13, 2016 15:54:24 GMT -6
They're making very smart use of procedural generation: create the asset once, then reuse it a million times but with procedural generation, so that it looks different each time.
This is what IGA meant when he said they couldn't maintain the quality with their previous development approach: imagine if all those variations had to be made by artists one by one - their production time and budget would balloon to the point where the game would never come out.
The alternative of dropping the quality of the assets would have given us another Mighty Number 9.
IGA made the right call.
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Post by Jango on Dec 13, 2016 15:57:35 GMT -6
I feel a little bad that Iga felt he had to dedicate a whole update to addressing this issue. The guy has more than demonstrated that he has a critical eye and a high standard for quality, so if he felt something was important in maintaining both quality and efficiency it's unnecessary to second guess him. He's a smart guy so I'm not surprised that addressed this particular situation quickly to minimize doubt and bad rumors surrounding his game (something he might be battling even more thanks to MNo9 and the recent delay) however I also wouldn't be surprised if he thinks twice from now on before discussing any offhand technical specifics regarding the game's development.
Needless to say the results of using this tool look great.
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Post by Goobsausage on Dec 13, 2016 16:02:44 GMT -6
I'm glad IGA took the time to address everyone's concerns about procedural generation. That was a good explanation, and the environment looks much better with it. The "before and after" filters in the video look really cool. Nice editing work, Fangamer Steve ! Thanks to everyone who worked on the update!
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Post by Kale on Dec 13, 2016 16:33:49 GMT -6
That's awesome. I wasn't one that was concerned with procedural generation, but this update makes me happy with how they are doing it to add a layer of awesome on top.
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ChucklesTheJester
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Post by ChucklesTheJester on Dec 13, 2016 16:54:00 GMT -6
I was hoping that this would've been known by all by now but then again I suppose it's also a good thing that they did address this in its own update.
Good job guys.
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Post by GenericSoda on Dec 13, 2016 17:04:53 GMT -6
Sure this is cool and all, but everybody seems to be missing the most important part of what we should be getting form this update.
That we should be sending get well soon wishes to IGA!
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Post by Scars Unseen on Dec 13, 2016 18:31:42 GMT -6
I feel a little bad that Iga felt he had to dedicate a whole update to addressing this issue. The guy has more than demonstrated that he has a critical eye and a high standard for quality, so if he felt something was important in maintaining both quality and efficiency it's unnecessary to second guess him. He's a smart guy so I'm not surprised that addressed this particular situation quickly to minimize doubt and bad rumors surrounding his game (something he might be battling even more thanks to MNo9 and the recent delay) however I also wouldn't be surprised if he thinks twice from now on before discussing any offhand technical specifics regarding the game's development. I don't really agree with this, and it doesn't have anything to do with a lack in trust in IGA. To be honest, if IGA had gone the typical Japanese developer route of just keeping quiet about everything and giving us the game he had in mind, I would have been okay with that. I've loved his games so far, and I'm sure I'll love Bloodstained as well. But if he's going to show us the game in progress and ask for our feedback, then I think exchanges like this are both inevitable and necessary. When IGA solicited our input on the visual presentation of the game back with the shaders, it was fantastic, and it helped the community feel that they were part of the game rather than just consumers of it. But too much of that, and it could start giving the impression that we are driving the game's development(even if that isn't the case at all) to a larger degree than some people who wanted IGA's vision come to life would be comfortable with. In light of that, it's good that occasionally the community gets "put in its place" as it were by a demonstration that yes, IGA absolutely knows what he's doing. That sometimes our concerns are unfounded. It helps instill confidence that this definitely going to be IGA's game, and that this is a very good thing.
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Post by dareka on Dec 13, 2016 19:10:06 GMT -6
Sure this is cool and all, but everybody seems to be missing the most important part of what we should be getting form this update. That we should be sending get well soon wishes to IGA! True, so true! Get well soon, IGA! お大事に!
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Post by dareka on Dec 13, 2016 19:14:17 GMT -6
I was hoping that this would've been known by all by now but then again I suppose it's also a good thing that they did address this in its own update. Good job guys. It's the old adage: " a picture is worth a thousand words." Seeing the difference in action is sure to assuage any fears people might have.
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XombieMike
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Post by XombieMike on Dec 13, 2016 19:15:18 GMT -6
I like using the YouTube settings to slow it down to 25% speed and look at the first split view comparison.
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Post by BalancedHydra on Dec 13, 2016 19:23:35 GMT -6
This update is a breath of fresh air. Thank you Iga and get well soon.
Do we have medicinal doughnuts we can sent him for a speedy recovery?
p.s. Hey Gebel. You might want to hire a new contractor. Your current one sucks if your literal foundation is falling apart.
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Post by CastleDan on Dec 13, 2016 19:40:03 GMT -6
I feel a little bad that Iga felt he had to dedicate a whole update to addressing this issue. The guy has more than demonstrated that he has a critical eye and a high standard for quality, so if he felt something was important in maintaining both quality and efficiency it's unnecessary to second guess him. He's a smart guy so I'm not surprised that addressed this particular situation quickly to minimize doubt and bad rumors surrounding his game (something he might be battling even more thanks to MNo9 and the recent delay) however I also wouldn't be surprised if he thinks twice from now on before discussing any offhand technical specifics regarding the game's development. I don't really agree with this, and it doesn't have anything to do with a lack in trust in IGA. To be honest, if IGA had gone the typical Japanese developer route of just keeping quiet about everything and giving us the game he had in mind, I would have been okay with that. I've loved his games so far, and I'm sure I'll love Bloodstained as well. But if he's going to show us the game in progress and ask for our feedback, then I think exchanges like this are both inevitable and necessary. When IGA solicited our input on the visual presentation of the game back with the shaders, it was fantastic, and it helped the community feel that they were part of the game rather than just consumers of it. But too much of that, and it could start giving the impression that we are driving the game's development(even if that isn't the case at all) to a larger degree than some people who wanted IGA's vision come to life would be comfortable with. In light of that, it's good that occasionally the community gets "put in its place" as it were by a demonstration that yes, IGA absolutely knows what he's doing. That sometimes our concerns are unfounded. It helps instill confidence that this definitely going to be IGA's game, and that this is a very good thing. So much this. It's not even getting put in your place but people need to stop acting like developers we love can do no wrong either. We don't need to act like developers we love are absolutely perfect and can't get off course or mess up. The benefit of a Kickstarter is that both parties can be honest and transparent with each other. If there are concerns the developers can directly address them and ease worries, if the dev gets too off course, we can help guide a bit when need be. Being content with everything doesn't make the best product it's good to be honest and open even IF you might be wrong. The fact is, there's people in the general public that may have also had these concerns and because of this upfront update it'll serve the community and iga even better in the long run. IGA comes off way better being open and explaining things when he can then not doing it and things snowball.
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