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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 11:49:20 GMT -6
I thought it'd be cool and helpful to really disect each IGA castle and really get down to the nit and grit of what makes them work and what makes them not work at times. SOTN CASTLE PROS: -SOTN covers great distance. They let the areas expand outward in an organic way rather than bunching areas together unrealistically. - SOTN is very good about giving you distinctions within each area. The minute it starts to feel repetitive the backgrounds look switches or you do something different. Just look at the chapel. You go up a giant staircase into a room of stain glass into bell towers, and just as the bell towers gets old you're out of it into the throne area. - There's a lot of areas in the castle where the floor isn't just a flat ground but more cave like in its structure. CONS: It's my favorite castle so i'm having a hard time coming up with something. Any help? DAWN OF SORROW PROS: - The areas are pretty diverse in terms of style. - Lots of nice environmental touches peppered throughout. ( Chandeliers, piano...etc) CONS: This is a criticism I have for a few of the modern games. A lot of the areas are bunched together. -Look at the Demon Guest house, it's essentially a big box that you climb up and up in. The areas are very stacked instead of spread out. Instead of feeling like you're moving around great distances within a location you kinda just climb up and rely more on your map. That's not to say I want giant hallways but a location that spreads out more in an interesting way. ( this issue plagues a lot of the areas) - There's a lot of towers but they don't have a good feel to them so they come off as a bit more repetitive. For instance the tower all the way to the right, where you fight the boss. It's a cool area but underground it continues. It's too much of the same thing that it loses it's freshness. - Areas are too close to each other. Demon Guest house is right next to the garden which is right next to the chapel. It's WAY too close and feels kinda weird to me. ARIA OF SORROW  PROS ( my second favorite Castle) - Like SOTN it does a good job of mixing up each location enough to make it feel fresh constantly. - Also like SOTN it feels as though you travel more within each location instead of it seeming bunched up. - All around well designed. CONS ? ORDER OF ECCLESIA
 PROS: - Some areas look pretty visually beautiful in terms of art design.  - It's not overly boxy in design CONS - It's hard to properly judge this castle because it's more of an afterthought in this game so it's obvious it wouldn't get the design attention as other games castles. - Very, very repetitive and very barebones. You will go room to room of the same design to a T. Anything you want to add? What's your pros and cons of each castle? ( also do we have any other maps with the layout within them that I can add to this post? |
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Post by genemag on Jul 27, 2016 13:09:19 GMT -6
I'm at work right, so I'll just have time for one small con (debatable) with the SotN map: The Underground Caverns was a one-way area, in terms of not being able to backtrack once you fall into the hole.
From a game design/art direction standpoint it's a great decision as it gives a very unique vibe to the area compared to the other areas ( claustrophobic, very bottomless pit-like ) although from a completionist/backtracking standpoint running through the area does eat up a lot of idle time.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 13:13:52 GMT -6
I'm at work right, so I'll just have time for one small con (debatable) with the SotN map: The Underground Caverns was a one-way area, in terms of not being able to backtrack once you fall into the hole. From a game design/art direction standpoint it's a great decision as it gives a very unique vibe to the area compared to the other areas ( claustrophobic, very bottomless pit-like ) although from a completionist/backtracking standpoint running through the area does eat up a lot of idle time. Thanks, I needed some kind of con for it.  |
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 27, 2016 13:54:52 GMT -6
I'm at work right, so I'll just have time for one small con (debatable) with the SotN map: The Underground Caverns was a one-way area, in terms of not being able to backtrack once you fall into the hole. From a game design/art direction standpoint it's a great decision as it gives a very unique vibe to the area compared to the other areas ( claustrophobic, very bottomless pit-like ) although from a completionist/backtracking standpoint running through the area does eat up a lot of idle time. Yeah, it was much like the catacombs in Circle of the moon. And again, without the means to get back up, it was difficult to maneuver around it, without spending large chunks of time. This is one thing, that I would prefer not to see. |
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Post by EBBenjy on Jul 27, 2016 14:17:36 GMT -6
I recently played through Harmony of Dissonance. It's by far my least favourite castle. The dual-layer castle thing gets really annoying to navigate, and it's kind of linear too - you only get the chance to fully-explore the castle after beating Death and getting the Griffon's Wing - before that, it's pretty much all one linear line, since the Skull and Lure keys can only be obtained really late. There's a lot of backtracking, and I felt the areas were very indistinct from one another. I never really got the feeling that I had a place I enjoyed being in, everything felt so samey.
Circle of the Moon is an interesting case, because each area feels very much like a self-contained level. It feels like areas like the Catacombs, Machine Tower, Gallery, Warehouse and Waterway are all very self-contained, each with a defined entrance and a boss at the end. I personally really liked this style, it feels more arcadey while still being a true Metroidvania experience at the same time.
Of course I do also enjoy the more open corridors of Symphony of the Night, where you pretty much have free reign of the map after defeating Slogra and Gaibon (and visiting the Library for the blue key).
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Post by Astaroth on Jul 27, 2016 15:30:31 GMT -6
i like the dual castle concept that hod had, i think its implementation was held back a bit by the limitations of the system and the newness of the system to the team but it had some interesting ideas that could be revisited now that those limitations arent in place
loi had a bit of the same new system issues that hod did but from the 3d angle, i think the castle layouts and areas were very cool in their design and varied in their appearance from each other, but fell into a necessity to cut and paste room designs within an area in order to meet budget and deadline hurdles, cod in a lot of ways shows how much they learned from loi and used it to make the layouts that much better and even made the areas flow into each other rather than having a hub system loi had
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Post by crocodile on Jul 27, 2016 15:55:46 GMT -6
The contents of the rooms matter as much if not more than their arrangement. The map you have on hand for Order of Ecclesia doesn't tell us anything about the contents of the rooms so I'm not sure how relevant the comparison is (that and as you said it only represents half the game rather than all of it). You also don't have a map for the Dawn of Sorrow so its also a bit hard to have in this conversation. Obviously, this conversation would be at its highest quality if we had all played through these game relatively recently but unfortunately nobody has a schedule for that It think the biggest, more objective distinction between the map in SOTN and the maps in later games is that its more spread out (but its hard for me to say exactly how much more spread out - I bet if I did the math it would be less so than either of us would expect). I'd probably have to measure it somehow to be sure but I think you spend a lot more time moving horizontal than in a lot of the later games which have a greater sense of verticality and more dense sections. I think SOTN might lend itself a bit better to a sense of exploration due to being ore spread out but I certainly don't think the interactions and happenings in any particular room is better. I think dense rooms or sections probably make for better platforming opportunities though (if only IGA was more interested in taking advantage of them.......). With regards to room repetition, I think that was something that deeply plagued POR and to a much lesser extent OoE but I never felt that was a real problem for Aria or Dawn of Sorrow. At least not a problem in a way that wouldn't also be an issue for SOTN. I would also argue that Aria and Dawn of Sorrow had more diverse locales within their castles. Environmental diversity is very important to me and I DON'T think SOTN did the best job of all the castles. I'd have t think deep and long to decide if Aria or Dawn of Sorrow wins in that regard. |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 16:48:27 GMT -6
The contents of the rooms matter as much if not more than their arrangement. The map you have on hand for Order of Ecclesia doesn't tell us anything about the contents of the rooms so I'm not sure how relevant the comparison is (that and as you said it only represents half the game rather than all of it). You also don't have a map for the Dawn of Sorrow so its also a bit hard to have in this conversation. Obviously, this conversation would be at its highest quality if we had all played through these game relatively recently but unfortunately nobody has a schedule for that It think the biggest, more objective distinction between the map in SOTN and the maps in later games is that its more spread out (but its hard for me to say exactly how much more spread out - I bet if I did the math it would be less so than either of us would expect). I'd probably have to measure it somehow to be sure but I think you spend a lot more time moving horizontal than in a lot of the later games which have a greater sense of verticality and more dense sections. I think SOTN might lend itself a bit better to a sense of exploration due to being ore spread out but I certainly don't think the interactions and happenings in any particular room is better. I think dense rooms or sections probably make for better platforming opportunities though (if only IGA was more interested in taking advantage of them.......). With regards to room repetition, I think that was something that deeply plagued POR and to a much lesser extent OoE but I never felt that was a real problem for Aria or Dawn of Sorrow. At least not a problem in a way that wouldn't also be an issue for SOTN. I would also argue that Aria and Dawn of Sorrow had more diverse locales within their castles. Environmental diversity is very important to me and I DON'T think SOTN did the best job of all the castles. I'd have t think deep and long to decide if Aria or Dawn of Sorrow wins in that regard. To be fair, I did post a map of DOS but for some reason the image got messed up. I can't find one of Order but it definitely had an issue of repetition but as we both said it was more of an afterthought castle. Aria I love, dawns is pretty good as well. Portrait and Order have the worst castle designs imo. In terms of big boxed rooms being better for platforming i don't know if I agree. I think the more spread out approach is a more enjoyable form of platforming. For instance jumping from one side of the bell tower to the other while watching out for flying skeletons and crows. Verticality is great but SOTN does it in a way where it doesn't feel like a dense area of repetition. The verticality in SOTN has a very diagonal and nicely constructed feel to it. In other words.... Instead of Dawn where it had a very big box where you work your way up. SOTN has stuff like orlox quarters, where you go up the clock into that big room with stairs then you go to the right fly up and make your way through a prison and drop down to a quarter with broken down bridges and stuff. It's just a more spread out way to travel. I agree that SOTN didn't have more diverse locations but I thought they were better designed locations that felt more fitting within a castle. The locations were spaced out and laid out in a way that felt enjoyable to explore. It's less enjoyable when a location is a glorified giant box with platforms in it. Diversity is good but nothing beats something that is designed expertly. SOTN>ARIA>DAWN>>>>>>Portrait/Order in terms of castle design for me. I wish people would go with the pro vs cons of each castle. Didn't want to get into back and forth paragraphs lol. |
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 27, 2016 17:02:12 GMT -6
So I did think of a couple things:
Dawn of Sorrow
Pro
-I really liked how they integrated the modern era without bashing you with it. After all, this is a castle built in 2036 by the Evil Cult of Evil, and, well, they have cars and vans parked near the entrance, and you can jump on them to mess with cute snow physics. It helps the beginning of the game feel very distinct, and the modern element is otherwise very restrained and tactfully done. Also, well, SNOW. I cant think of another 'Vania that really played with snow.
SOTN:
Con
Sometimes navigating the castle and progressing feels too obtuse. Maybe this is not the castle itself but there are times where mechanics are employed that, at least to my memory, were never used before or after either in the game itself or in other games. For example, one time I was horribly stuck and upon using the wonders of the internet discovered I had to lure an ape skeleton from a different room and get it to throw its barrel and blow up the floor. Wait, what? Thats baiting the AI, its not an ability I have.
I also agree with Crocodile in that while the castle in SOTN is BEAUTIFULLY designed and drawn, there isnt as much variety within it. Some areas let you peak outside or go underground but it lacks really distinct areas like Aria's Floating Gardens or Harmony's Skeleton Caves. A lot of Symphony's areas, while artistically are gorgeous, they all fell, well, like a castle without as many distinct themes to make a particular area memorable.
OoE
Pro
While minor, I LOVE how the entrance to the castle has no music. Funny thing to say in a game with such good music but just...walking into that dark, mist covered forest with no music and nothing but screeching crows really hit me with a distinctly creepy, dread-filled atmosphere before you cross the bridge and are hit with Shanoa's truly excellent theme with "an Empty Tome". There's one spot in particular where Shanoa stand between a pair of trees in the foreground and I just stand there watching her hair blow in the wind as I take in the fog and creepy ambiance.
Con
Ecclessia is my favorite 'vania game. I hate talking bad about it but due to the fact that the Castle was not the focus, there are very few big open rooms to really have fun in, its mostly just a bunch of long hallways connecting the 3 boss fights prior to Dracula. Now, I LIKE the lack of castle focus because I found that exploring Wallachia's various reefs, forests, swamps, mountain ranges and decrepit Mansions more than made up for it, but it still stands that Order's castle feels like a big boss fight funnel.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 17:04:33 GMT -6
I want to say I'm really happy the man who designed Aria and Dawn's castle is working on the new one. While I'm not a HUGE fan of Dawn's, Aria'a gives me the SOTN feels with its castle.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 27, 2016 17:13:33 GMT -6
I will say one thing in favor of Portrait of Ruin's castle. Mainly it was my first IGAvania and I'm very attached to it because of it, but I will agree it has a weaker Castle than most of the others (granted the sheer creativity of the Portraits overrides it for me quite handily).
There is one area in PoR I like, and thats the Underground Prison, or whatever its called (been over a year since I really played around with it). I liked the jail cells and how there were glowy eyed things in the shadows shaking the bars, it was really atmospheric. It was also a very sewer-esque area and that felt unique as well. Most 'Vania games take place before sewers were invented so what would normally be "ugh, another sewer level" was instead "hey a sewer level, I've never seen this in Castlevania before!"
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 17:22:56 GMT -6
I will say one thing in favor of Portrait of Ruin's castle. Mainly it was my first IGAvania and I'm very attached to it because of it, but I will agree it has a weaker Castle than most of the others (granted the sheer creativity of the Portraits overrides it for me quite handily). There is one area in PoR I like, and thats the Underground Prison, or whatever its called (been over a year since I really played around with it). I liked the jail cells and how there were glowy eyed things in the shadows shaking the bars, it was really atmospheric. It was also a very sewer-esque area and that felt unique as well. Most 'Vania games take place before sewers were invented so what would normally be "ugh, another sewer level" was instead "hey a sewer level, I've never seen this in Castlevania before!" I need to figure out who are the users who think SOTN is their favorite. I feel like I'm at odds with a lot of the people here. The jail is a good example of what I dislike haha. Go figure. I also dislike the portrait system, granted its a cool idea for variety but the hub systems just always feel lazy to me. I love to see how they connect locations in a castle so to just throw portraits that override that kinda bums me out. Same thing for Order but granted. I'm not an oldschool vania fan. Aria and SOTN were the ones that got me into the series. So anything veering more to the old ways makes me more bummed out |
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 27, 2016 18:21:41 GMT -6
I think the DoS castle was by far the greatest out of all of them. My particular favorite part of that game was the Garden of Madness, which just had INCREDIBLE design, and I also enjoyed after you beat the 'vanilla' game, and go into the Abyss, the games depiction of Hell, absolutely masterful. Also, I felt that the castle was the most varientiated, tied only with SotN. And while I didn't care for the whole inverted castle thing, you gotta admit, it definitely took your breathe away, just to be aware of how much larger the game is, after you finish ONE castle. :p
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 27, 2016 18:25:47 GMT -6
I guess I don't want the team to treat any individual game as sacrosanct in regards to how they build Bloodstained. I mean Portrait was my intro, IGAvania was the formula I found first too, but I also adore a lot of the pre-IGA games. Super Castlevania IV and Rondo of Blood are both in my top 5, with Dracula's Curse and Bloodlines landing in my top 10. I love both the level based action games AND the big sprawling Castles. Maybe that puts me at a bit of an advantage when it comes to this game since if they adhere to SOTN like the bible I'll be fine but if they throw in some cool systems from other games I'm also fine (Classic Mode has me really, really hype for example).
From my standpoint one of the reasons Bloodstained looks so appealing to me is because it looks like a big marriage of IGA's various games. It's got a big sprawling castle like Aria and SOTN, a power system that is, essentially, a beefed up version of Soma's Dominance system, the protagonist is a dark haired cursed girl like OoE...its like a big celebration of IGA's work as opposed to just being "Its this particular Castlevania game part 2 with HD graphics" and I like that. Well, except for Harmony of Dissonance, I havent seen anything reminiscent of that game and, well, as much as I like that game I also don't want to phase between Castle A and Castle B. Ugh.
Also on a more personal note, are not all of our opinions and views about the series valuable? I don't want to pick a fight but the way you phrased that almost makes it sound like you want to just find a room with a bunch of other SOTN fans and just talk about how great SOTN is. I mean, is it really so bad that a lot of the people here really love all of IGA's games as opposed to just going on and on about SOTN? I get enough of that from the FB game groups I frequent so this environment where I can talk about Ecclesia or Portrait or Harmony and get some good discussion about those games too feels great to me.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 18:33:46 GMT -6
I guess I don't want the team to treat any individual game as sacrosanct in regards to how they build Bloodstained. I mean Portrait was my intro, IGAvania was the formula I found first too, but I also adore a lot of the pre-IGA games. Super Castlevania IV and Rondo of Blood are both in my top 5, with Dracula's Curse and Bloodlines landing in my top 10. I love both the level based action games AND the big sprawling Castles. Maybe that puts me at a bit of an advantage when it comes to this game since if they adhere to SOTN like the bible I'll be fine but if they throw in some cool systems from other games I'm also fine (Classic Mode has me really, really hype for example). From my standpoint one of the reasons Bloodstained looks so appealing to me is because it looks like a big marriage of IGA's various games. It's got a big sprawling castle like Aria and SOTN, a power system that is, essentially, a beefed up version of Soma's Dominance system, the protagonist is a dark haired cursed girl like OoE...its like a big celebration of IGA's work as opposed to just being "Its this particular Castlevania game part 2 with HD graphics" and I like that. Well, except for Harmony of Dissonance, I havent seen anything reminiscent of that game and, well, as much as I like that game I also don't want to phase between Castle A and Castle B. Ugh. Also on a more personal note, are not all of our opinions and views about the series valuable? I don't want to pick a fight but the way you phrased that almost makes it sound like you want to just find a room with a bunch of other SOTN fans and just talk about how great SOTN is. I mean, is it really so bad that a lot of the people here really love all of IGA's games as opposed to just going on and on about SOTN? I get enough of that from the FB game groups I frequent so this environment where I can talk about Ecclesia or Portrait or Harmony and get some good discussion about those games too feels great to me. Obviously not what I'm meaning. The whole point of this thread is to list thoughts on each castle. My point is considering SOTN is usually regarded as one of the best in the series, I don't see many on this site that consider it the best. So whenever I nerd out about SOTN I feel kinda like I'm the lone wolf. haha. I love the fact that bloodstained takes influences from many games. That's a good idea. I was just saying go figure I'm at odds with a lot of people here because I typically am here lol. It's a message board though people will disagree, God knows Crocodile and me do that all the time. |
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 27, 2016 18:44:02 GMT -6
I guess I don't want the team to treat any individual game as sacrosanct in regards to how they build Bloodstained. I mean Portrait was my intro, IGAvania was the formula I found first too, but I also adore a lot of the pre-IGA games. Super Castlevania IV and Rondo of Blood are both in my top 5, with Dracula's Curse and Bloodlines landing in my top 10. I love both the level based action games AND the big sprawling Castles. Maybe that puts me at a bit of an advantage when it comes to this game since if they adhere to SOTN like the bible I'll be fine but if they throw in some cool systems from other games I'm also fine (Classic Mode has me really, really hype for example). From my standpoint one of the reasons Bloodstained looks so appealing to me is because it looks like a big marriage of IGA's various games. It's got a big sprawling castle like Aria and SOTN, a power system that is, essentially, a beefed up version of Soma's Dominance system, the protagonist is a dark haired cursed girl like OoE...its like a big celebration of IGA's work as opposed to just being "Its this particular Castlevania game part 2 with HD graphics" and I like that. Well, except for Harmony of Dissonance, I havent seen anything reminiscent of that game and, well, as much as I like that game I also don't want to phase between Castle A and Castle B. Ugh. Also on a more personal note, are not all of our opinions and views about the series valuable? I don't want to pick a fight but the way you phrased that almost makes it sound like you want to just find a room with a bunch of other SOTN fans and just talk about how great SOTN is. I mean, is it really so bad that a lot of the people here really love all of IGA's games as opposed to just going on and on about SOTN? I get enough of that from the FB game groups I frequent so this environment where I can talk about Ecclesia or Portrait or Harmony and get some good discussion about those games too feels great to me. Obviously not what I'm meaning. The whole point of this thread is to list thoughts on each castle. My point is considering SOTN is usually regarded as one of the best in the series, I don't see many on this site that consider it the best. So whenever I nerd out about SOTN I feel kinda like I'm the lone wolf. haha. I was just saying go figure I'm at odds with a lot of people here because I typically am here lol. I don't think you're the lone wolf, I just think a lot of the people on here a super-analytical, and try to look at things from every possible angle, and see all the pros and cons to what they're lookin' at. :D I honestly think that Symphony of the Night is IGA's best work, even if it doesn't happen to be my favorite out of his work. Symphony of the Night had SO many cool and unique things added to it. Special attacks, spells, familiars that felt more like companions rather than spells, I mean if Symphony was the first Castlevania game I had ever played, and not Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow, I am almost POSITIVE that it would be my favorite one right now. As far as castles go, one thing that I liked about Symphony of the night was how many different areas there were. I mean sure, the Inverted castle didn't touch things up too much as far as aesthetics are concerned, (with the exception of the Floating Catacombs) but there were so many diverse and unique areas. I personally thought that the Royal Chapel, and the Long Library were STUNNING. It was definitely a landscape that I had never encountered in another IGAvania, and that, I liked. Symphony of the Night had a lot going for it, and the castle was no exception. :p |
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 18:53:40 GMT -6
Obviously not what I'm meaning. The whole point of this thread is to list thoughts on each castle. My point is considering SOTN is usually regarded as one of the best in the series, I don't see many on this site that consider it the best. So whenever I nerd out about SOTN I feel kinda like I'm the lone wolf. haha. I was just saying go figure I'm at odds with a lot of people here because I typically am here lol. I don't think you're the lone wolf, I just think a lot of the people on here a super-analytical, and try to look at things from every possible angle, and see all the pros and cons to what they're lookin' at.  I honestly think that Symphony of the Night is IGA's best work, even if it doesn't happen to be my favorite out of his work. Symphony of the Night had SO many cool and unique things added to it. Special attacks, spells, familiars that felt more like companions rather than spells, I mean if Symphony was the first Castlevania game I had ever played, and not Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow, I am almost POSITIVE that it would be my favorite one right now. As far as castles go, one thing that I liked about Symphony of the night was how many different areas there were. I mean sure, the Inverted castle didn't touch things up too much as far as aesthetics are concerned, (with the exception of the Floating Catacombs) but there were so many diverse and unique areas. I personally thought that the Royal Chapel, and the Long Library were STUNNING. It was definitely a landscape that I had never encountered in another IGAvania, and that, I liked. Symphony of the Night had a lot going for it, and the castle was no exception. I wish I remembered Harmony of dissonances castle better. I would have commented on it and circle of the moon but those two castles are a blur to me |
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[TI1]It is time for darkness. It is a blood banquet.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jul 27, 2016 19:00:30 GMT -6
Harmony of Dissonance had some really colorful and creative areas: the Skeleton Caverns and the Aqueduct of Dragons are usually cited as the standouts. HoD is one I've always liked even if the Castle A/Castle B body part hunt keeps me from replaying it as much as otherwise would have. Its the ONLY IGAvania where the main character is a Belmont...even if that Belmont is just Alucard 2.0. I love the whip upgrades like charging it to smash walls or toss fireballs (as a fun nod to Christopher Belmont, nice touch Iga) and combining the orbs with subweapons for all kinds of magic spells was really fun and has kept Juste a standout character for me.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 19:07:31 GMT -6
Harmony of Dissonance had some really colorful and creative areas: the Skeleton Caverns and the Aqueduct of Dragons are usually cited as the standouts. HoD is one I've always liked even if the Castle A/Castle B body part hunt keeps me from replaying it as much as otherwise would have. Its the ONLY IGAvania where the main character is a Belmont...even if that Belmont is just Alucard 2.0. I love the whip upgrades like charging it to smash walls or toss fireballs (as a fun nod to Christopher Belmont, nice touch Iga) and combining the orbs with subweapons for all kinds of magic spells was really fun and has kept Juste a standout character for me. I have a feeling if the gameplay systems of Harmony were more like Aria of sorrow I would have loved the castle more. I remember it being like you said visually pleasing. the game just didn't connect for me that much |
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Post by estebant on Jul 27, 2016 19:51:25 GMT -6
I thought Rondo of Blood had a great castle.
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