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Post by CastleDan on Aug 4, 2016 9:02:15 GMT -6
I don't remember if I disliked the layout of the castle or not. I do know I felt the game was visually inconsistent (more on that in a bit). The layout might have been good to me but the hub system kinda takes away from the castle. Instead of finding areas in the castle and seeing how they cleverly connect, it's you basically exploring a giant hub and letting the hub take you to completely disconnected areas. So for me it feels less special despite letting you see very different areas. In terms of the inconsistent visual design I mention. The below felt very 2 dimensional more than it needs to be and very visually bland in the art design. Many times it reminds me of the visual quality of a SNES game and less of a more modern IGAVANIA.  /revision/latest?cb=20140829075844)    For comparison purposes in visual design  As you can see the artwork is far more detailed and has far more dimension to it's looking giving it a better impact of being there. So those above areas and there are some more seem very primitive in comparison to other areas in the game that are highly detailed and quite beautiful. Areas like below.  (XenoPhobia)-6.jpg) /revision/latest?cb=20140901035317)  So for me it's not just the layout of the castle that matters but the artistic value as well. Beautiful artwork and design can make a game like the below-  Order of Ecclesia suffered from that same problem as Portrait, it had some beautiful areas and some stinkers. Such beauty like the below     All very beautiful art in some ways beating even SOTN in the beauty of the artwork ( not layout ) but then you'd have areas like the below that not only in some cases look like direct rips artistically and visually of (SNES era) but also just look very visually unappealing. It doesn't help when areas are very repetitive layout wise, if that's the case the art design needs to step it up big time. When both are lacking it's not a good combo.  Reminds me of visually out of date Castlevania's like SUPER CASTLEVANIA 4    Not to mention you'll have repeats of areas but in a different color. So that's my two issues with Order and Portrait, visually inconsistent. If they took the beauty of some of the areas and applied it to all of them they'd be astounding looking. That's not to say areas can't be drab but there's such thing as drab beauty such as this -   and this would be an example of bland visual design -  I think the issue is art design and dimension vs a bland art design and a general flatness to the look. Dawn of Sorrow in comparison to those two games ( order and Portrait) looked much more consistent visually. |
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Post by dragonkd on Aug 4, 2016 12:16:27 GMT -6
alright, I feel something needs to be said, and forgive me I only read the first page of the posts.
when you speak about castle design, you aren't only speaking about the castle. the character you play as,
the graphical horsepower, and how that space is used all come into play.
DO NOT TAKE CASTLEVANIA FOR GRANTED:
we may all believe that all the vania games operate the same way, but they all(to some degree)
use different measurements. for one, they used different screen sizes.
field of view has ALOT of effect on how we perceive speed,
and so does gravity and the players actual tile coverage per second,
so while alucard has a different fov and movement speed, it may be an illusion just how fast he moves.
the ds vanias wanted to make more adequate use of space, and in the end I feel we need both cramped and open areas in equal measure.
by the time bloodstained hits, you can bet you will be using zoom and pan on the map, so total castle space is bno problem.
now while we have both those cramped and open areas, they need to be filled correctly. if an area is more open and more of a journey,
then the enemies should reflect that. they should be posted every so often to block your path, but not have a huge impact on your movement speed.
detail isn't an argument that can be fought as each vania was on different tier hardware.
now on the topic of detail, a castle will have many different areas, (it NEEDS to, the larger it is)
but there should be some things not just on the design/color palette on the menu.
#!:transitions between areas, and area placement, should be awe inspiring. think darksouls 1.
#2: areas should look different, that's a given, but more importantly, gameplay should provide the feel.
how enemies, rooms, and geometry are placed should be very important to how the player moves through an area.
think the towers from sotn,(which I still believe are the most difficult area in the series) and how you would need to maneuver through them.
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Post by CastleDan on Aug 4, 2016 12:49:12 GMT -6
alright, I feel something needs to be said, and forgive me I only read the first page of the posts. when you speak about castle design, you aren't only speaking about the castle. the character you play as, the graphical horsepower, and how that space is used all come into play. DO NOT TAKE CASTLEVANIA FOR GRANTED: we may all believe that all the vania games operate the same way, but they all(to some degree) use different measurements. for one, they used different screen sizes. field of view has ALOT of effect on how we perceive speed, and so does gravity and the players actual tile coverage per second, so while alucard has a different fov and movement speed, it may be an illusion just how fast he moves. the ds vanias wanted to make more adequate use of space, and in the end I feel we need both cramped and open areas in equal measure. by the time bloodstained hits, you can bet you will be using zoom and pan on the map, so total castle space is bno problem. now while we have both those cramped and open areas, they need to be filled correctly. if an area is more open and more of a journey, then the enemies should reflect that. they should be posted every so often to block your path, but not have a huge impact on your movement speed. detail isn't an argument that can be fought as each vania was on different tier hardware. now on the topic of detail, a castle will have many different areas, (it NEEDS to, the larger it is) but there should be some things not just on the design/color palette on the menu. #!:transitions between areas, and area placement, should be awe inspiring. think darksouls 1. #2: areas should look different, that's a given, but more importantly, gameplay should provide the feel. how enemies, rooms, and geometry are placed should be very important to how the player moves through an area. think the towers from sotn,(which I still believe are the most difficult area in the series) and how you would need to maneuver through them. I mean I think Aria of Sorrow has one of the best Castles yet it's on a very small screen with a much weaker engine. I'm specifically talking about castle design, not how the character feels during movement or anything in that regard. If you are just discussing there's more to design than just the castle, that's definitely true but the castle design is something that was off a few times imo. So I'm not sure what your point is with your top part. Your bottom part i completely agree with though. |
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Aug 4, 2016 14:51:08 GMT -6
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Post by CastleDan on Aug 4, 2016 15:14:26 GMT -6
In terms of sheer art design and effort, I think Harmony of Dissonance is a little underappreciated at times. Its a GBA game (on a more limited cartridge as well, hence the chiptune music) but man, the artists really went crazy with making detailed backgrounds and unique rooms. I think its one of the reasons I remember it so fondly (on top of me being a Belmont fan in general) Just look at some of this:      Good lord the artists worked that GBA to the bone XD I absolutely agree. In the sense that Harmony is the exact opposite of my criticism of Portrait of Ruin. Art design in it is top notch, it's quiet beautiful even though it's got such limitations. The game itself I wasn't into but the castle's art design was really well done. |
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Post by dragonkd on Aug 4, 2016 21:15:14 GMT -6
to clarify, my top section was about how each vania ran a bit differently, so we may be comparing apples to oranges when comparing castles in terms of feel.
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Post by CastleDan on Aug 4, 2016 22:00:33 GMT -6
to clarify, my top section was about how each vania ran a bit differently, so we may be comparing apples to oranges when comparing castles in terms of feel. Right but this topic isn't really about feel it's about design. If the castle is comprised of a bunch of square rooms with identical art design copy and pasted a lot that would have nothing to do with feel and more to do with bad level design. I guess you could argue it FEELS bad playing in a castle built like that but its specifically about the design |
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Post by dragonkd on Aug 5, 2016 14:14:47 GMT -6
right. well, as a closing unless anyone wants to add to this,
both cramped areas and large open areas have a place in castlevania, whats important is quantity and whether they match.
what makes areas unique is not only their visual style, but the way the player is inclined to move through them.
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Post by CastleDan on Aug 5, 2016 15:16:08 GMT -6
right. well, as a closing unless anyone wants to add to this, both cramped areas and large open areas have a place in castlevania, whats important is quantity and whether they match. what makes areas unique is not only their visual style, but the way the player is inclined to move through them. Yeah as long as they are not poorly designed. You can have cramped spaces and big spaces but they still have to be nicely designed spaces. That's all I'm saying |
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Post by Kaius on Aug 10, 2016 16:26:42 GMT -6
If ever my opinion can help... ~ What makes a great castle for me : - Secret rooms
- A lot of variety in rooms themes (ancient, science, library, artistic, gallery, caverns, etc... SOTN is a perfect exemple)
- Restricted areas (where a power is needed to get access)
- A throne room with or without an additional villain room (if the throne room was destroyed by the villain who decided to go underground instead for exemple (aka the villain room))
- Well placed save rooms, not close too much, not too far from each other (must not be punitive)
- A merchant
~ What makes a castle bad for me : - Linear and straight fowards rooms (I liked big corridors linking two parts in SOTN though)
- Puzzle jump rooms filled with stoning infinite-spawn monsters (yes, Medusa's head, I'm talking to you)
- Monsters abusing a room design to spam their power (a sniper skull on the top of an almost impossible jump, making it 105% impossible because of a simple hit)
- Too predictable monster paterns (only moving forward or always having the same jump length, etc...)
- A hard-to-access merchant
SOTN is a really good exemple for what makes both a good and a bad castle in my opinion.
It has an extremly wild variety of themes in rooms, it's a very big, dense and rich castle where you can find so much ways, secrets and beauty. But also, it had many annoying parts : Endless linear corridors with too predictable monster paterns (I'm not blaming it though because it's a retro game) and puzzle jumps with an ocean of infinite stoning Medusa (really made me want to break my controller... ha ! ha !)... I'd love to see more of the outside of the castle as well. Gardens around, a cemetery grave maybe ? A large bridge, I mean besides the Galleon. I loved SOTN, but it kinda felt you were stuck in a 100% closed building. |
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Post by estebant on Aug 10, 2016 17:11:14 GMT -6
I'd love to see more of the outside of the castle as well. Gardens around, a cemetery grave maybe ? A large bridge, I mean besides the Galleon. I loved SOTN, but it kinda felt you were stuck in a 100% closed building. Thats odd. I never felt that way and i've played the game so many times. Theres quite a few areas that take place outside like the castle entrance right after the bridge, that area with the impaled people, most of the castle keep, broken clocktower bridge, and that huge area with the fountain inside Olrox's quarters. Not to mention you can see the outside in alot of areas even if the character isn't there like the chapel and outer wall. Im sure you already know all this but I still can't quite see what you mean. |
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Post by dragonkd on Aug 10, 2016 17:22:15 GMT -6
you know, I should probably comment on sotn. one thing I noticed is just how much time you spend walking,
for instance, the upside down castle and the regular MUST be transposed through the throne room,
and the librarian also takes a bit of a walk to reach even from the nearest teleport.
I would like to see more work on the clock tower area, taller towers with the linear rooms placed between them, but the falling bridges are definitely nice.
the marble gallery could have a few different branching paths that touched each other,
I love the difficulty ramp of the chapel,
the catacombs are great, with many unique enemies and areas, with loot scattered throughout,
the abandoned mine could do with more shafts,
the caverns were ok but could have capitalized further on alucards water problem, the well at the top might have had more chambers, and the farthest sections on the right and left could connect back to the entrance and outer wall respectively.
the upside down castle posed many interesting twists, marble gallery for instance, but areas could have used their own ost....
the underground garden could have been cool if it were designed less sloppily, and the prison was too much of the same.
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Post by Kaius on Aug 10, 2016 17:23:35 GMT -6
I'd love to see more of the outside of the castle as well. Gardens around, a cemetery grave maybe ? A large bridge, I mean besides the Galleon. I loved SOTN, but it kinda felt you were stuck in a 100% closed building. Thats odd. I never felt that way and i've played the game so many times. Theres quite a few areas that take place outside like the castle entrance right after the bridge, that area with the impaled people, most of the castle keep, broken clocktower bridge, and that huge area with the fountain inside Olrox's quarters. Not to mention you can see the outside in alot of areas even if the character isn't there like the chapel and outer wall. Im sure you already know all this but I still can't quite see what you mean. I was thinking about outside areas, close from the Castle of course. Maybe it could have gardens since it has something to do with alchemy. I guess they had some fields where they get ingredients. Why not a small foggy lake when you'll face a monster with tentacles or something. I don't know, I'd like to go outside for real sometimes (even if it's within castle walls) and not just having a sight of the outside world. |
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Post by dragonkd on Aug 10, 2016 17:26:27 GMT -6
kaius means that you still only explore the castle.
say, what if you explored the forest outside the chapel? yes, the outside world is shown, but even if there was a free area it had a brick ceiling. someone get the man who put a ceiling on the clocktower and slap him.
I felt similarly with POR, but we got paintings to counter that. it is never explained whether the castles demons attack the outside world, because they are always more worried about defending the castle.
EDIT
many of the areas from ooe just tacked onto the side of the castle would have done the trick.
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Post by CastleDan on Aug 10, 2016 17:29:16 GMT -6
I should have made a poll to see what everyone's favorite castle is
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Post by Kaius on Aug 11, 2016 6:19:47 GMT -6
I should have made a poll to see what everyone's favorite castle is Can't you edit the first post ?  My favorite one is SOTN castle anyway. |
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Post by CastleDan on Aug 11, 2016 8:12:38 GMT -6
I should have made a poll to see what everyone's favorite castle is Can't you edit the first post ? My favorite one is SOTN castle anyway. My bad, I added one! |
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Post by Galamoth on Aug 11, 2016 11:18:39 GMT -6
I'm going to have to admit that the Castles in AoS, HoD, and OoE were all my favorites for differing reasons. PoR's Castle is a close 2nd for me as well.  |
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Post by Yän on Aug 11, 2016 16:12:15 GMT -6
Can't you edit the first post ? My favorite one is SOTN castle anyway. My bad, I added one! Why is there no HoD, LoI, CoD though? I'm not saying that my vote is on these but they should still be in there right? |
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Aug 11, 2016 17:18:04 GMT -6
Why is there no HoD, LoI, CoD though? I'm not saying that my vote is on these but they should still be in there right? As much as I love both of them, LoI and CoD could likely be left off for the sake of sticking to the 2D offerings, but Harmony of Dissonance should be here. |
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