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Post by estebant on Jun 24, 2016 15:49:41 GMT -6
Kind of strange nobody has really brought this up in this discussion. My immediate reaction was that the boss itself was inspired by anglerfish. Anglerfish use an appendage that is often bioluminescent as a lure to attract prey. Fish can be attracted to lights, especially in deep sea settings, so it evolved to be an effective means of predation. Now, for this boss, we're obviously talking about a demon - and throughout various religions, demons often are portrayed as pursuing and attempting to seduce humans by appealing to their lust, avarice, and so forth. Sailing, historically-speaking, has been a predominantly-male profession, particularly in the time period in which large wooden galleons were in use. Like how an anglerfish would use a shiny light to lure in fish to prey on, what might a giant sea-dwelling demon use as a lure if its prey of choice were men? To this end, the design makes complete sense to me. This isn't even the first time Castlevania does this. Lorelai and Lady of the Crypt are basically the same thing.
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Post by liamx2000 on Jun 24, 2016 16:21:37 GMT -6
My reaction to Vepar is that, as Morte would say, "Okay, this is a little too lowbrow, even for me." Wait, whoops, wrong Morte ... But, uh, yeah. The boss really does not need those ridiculously oversized flopping boobs. It just doesn't. It's pointless and takes away from the whole experience. Did not spoil my Experience one bit , this kind of game has always had females like this from naked frozen shades , sexy succubuses , Sexy Witches . I was barely even looking at the breasts I was looking at the freaky mouth stomach more then anything else.
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Post by Risada on Jun 24, 2016 19:27:52 GMT -6
My reaction to Vepar is that, as Morte would say, "Okay, this is a little too lowbrow, even for me." Wait, whoops, wrong Morte ... But, uh, yeah. The boss really does not need those ridiculously oversized flopping boobs. It just doesn't. It's pointless and takes away from the whole experience. I disagree. It is Iga's (art guy) vision of the lesser key called Vepar. WARNING: SOME OF THESE IMAGES ARE NSFW AND, DEPENDING ON THE PERSON, QUITE OFFENSIVE. The Mods can take the links away if they deem necessary.For those who play Shin Megami Tensei games: Arioch, Mara, Satan and Incubus are some demons with a "unique" appearance and are around for quite a while... What are some boobs or big belly when we have SMT Mara around for at least 10 years in all its slimy glory?
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Post by dareka on Jun 24, 2016 19:44:29 GMT -6
My reaction to Vepar is that, as Morte would say, "Okay, this is a little too lowbrow, even for me." Wait, whoops, wrong Morte ... But, uh, yeah. The boss really does not need those ridiculously oversized flopping boobs. It just doesn't. It's pointless and takes away from the whole experience. Did not spoil my Experience one bit , this kind of game has always had females like this from naked frozen shades , sexy succubuses , Sexy Witches . I was barely even looking at the breasts I was looking at the freaky mouth stomach more then anything else. I personally love those enemies you mention: the frozen shades, succubi and witches. I hope we get some version of these, and also, yes, some incubi would be nice, dong and all. But none of the enemies mentioned have " oversized flopping boobs."It's the " oversized flopping" part on which opinion seems to divided, not the boob part. That reminds me of an old episode of Seinfeld...
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Post by BahamutKaiser on Jun 24, 2016 20:19:59 GMT -6
I expect breasts, it's the same kind of Gothic sexual design seen on foes in SotN.
Be more sexy I say. What I will admit though was that the boss looked a little tacky, something about the bright green didn't mesh well. It wasn't offensive or super distracting, but thinking about it again, it wasn't up there with SotN bosses.
Grotesque lady sea monster thing seems pretty original, but it could use some polishing, and by polishing, I mean griminess. The grotesque them seemed to pervade all the foes in the demo, so that fit well. I just hope they have some variety in the rest of the game, and bring that boss closer to the rest of the foes on that level.
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Post by civilizedcactus on Jun 24, 2016 22:31:26 GMT -6
Did not spoil my Experience one bit , this kind of game has always had females like this from naked frozen shades , sexy succubuses , Sexy Witches . I was barely even looking at the breasts I was looking at the freaky mouth stomach more then anything else. I personally love those enemies you mention: the frozen shades, succubi and witches. I hope we get some version of these, and also, yes, some incubi would be nice, dong and all. But none of the enemies mentioned have " oversized flopping boobs."It's the " oversized flopping" part on which opinion seems to divided, not the boob part. That reminds me of an old episode of Seinfeld... Seinfeld? In my Bloodstained forums? Its more likely then you'd think. Iunno though. As far as being oversized goes, they are certainly large in proportion to it's upper torso, but I certainly wouldn't put them outside them realm of believable size, even if it were about the size of a normal human. But considering this is a demon monster thing, which have had the tendency to be rather exaggerated in some respect in both the games and the mythology they are derived from, they are probably normal for demons. Now the flopping part. Well... yeah. They would be floppy. Large breasts have a bit of sag to them. I'd almost argue that Vepar's breasts are a little too perky for their size, but perhaps I'm imagining things. While they certainly draw the eye, that's probably intentional. Its a mermaid demon thing. Those have had the tendency to try and lure sailors to their death in mythology. What tools does a demon that likely has some shape-shifting capacities have to do that? Large breasts could be one of them. If it works on gamers, it probably works on sailors. Overall I'd think the colors of the boss are the only thing I'd think I could be convinced are a negative draw to the visuals of the boss. I didn't think the boss was too colorful initially, but I think now that maybe the blue of her skin doesn't let the crystals on her head, her stomach teeth (which I realized looks a lot like the mouths on the enemies it spawns. It's a nice touch) and running up her's arms pop out as much as they should. While I'm not surprised this breast business has blown up as much as it has, I hope this discussion dies down enough that the devs don't start thinking of it as a problem that needs fixed. I certainly wouldn't want the discussion bleeding into more mainstream gaming media (Kotaku, etc.) where it will get torn to shreds by those who are less reasonable then those on this forum and might pressure them to make what I think could an unnecessary change.
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Post by gunlocksp on Jun 24, 2016 23:25:32 GMT -6
To the OP, read thisI DO NOT care about this "over-sexualization" or "why does this character, monster have this kind of look" issues in games (it reminds me of when people were complaining about the characters aesthetics in Dragon's Crown and it really annoys me). Remember this game is more about nostalgia, story, and gameplay, so please try to look past your "concerns" and enjoy the game. Thank you very much.
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Post by crocodile on Jun 24, 2016 23:25:36 GMT -6
Putting aside the many previous examples of giant monster women bosses in the Castlevania series such as Scylla from Symphony of the Night Medusa from Portrait of Ruin Vepar kind of reminds me of the character Double from Skullgirls (an amazing fighting game with horror elements that you should check out if you like fighting games): The focus for Double (who is probably a design that is impossible to nail in 3D) is more on the Eldritch Abomination side, which makes sense if you're aware of Skullgirls lore and pulls it more towards the "grotesque", and Vepar is more pulling from Mermaid/Siren/Kraken legends, which pulls it more towards the "alluring", but you can still see some similarities. The "sexy" and "grotesque"/"creepy"/"monstrous" mix can be very effective - its something that Castlevania has touched upon in the past (and no I don't mean Succubi or Witches as those tend to be all in on the "sexy" and little on the "monster"/"gross") as well as other series (Silent Hill was one example mentioned in thread). The only question comes down to if you think Vepar is an effective execution of that concept (that seems to be the main source of disagreement I can see). I'm still back and forth on the colors and textures but with regards to the other aspects (toothy midsection, tentacles, large bust, etc.) I think it works very well so I'd be opposed to design changes (I'm curious what her concept art looks like - since we got that concept art for that boss with the camel head in its crotch I've been keen to see more art like that). I guess I'm just reiterating what I've said before but the thread has developed a bit since then so I figured I'd make one more post (also now I have cool gifs). At the end of the day, I think there have been and will be a lot of "agree to disagree" posts in here which is fine so I'm going to let people have at it. At least things look for the most part cordial and respectful which makes me happy even if the topic is kind of worn
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Post by thrashinuva on Jun 24, 2016 23:35:01 GMT -6
I had completely forgotten about another topic and tidbit about the game using the demons of the Lesser key of Solomon. The boss is practically true to form with a little creative inspiration, as well as being more tame than the actual source. It should be noted that other than Vapar, we've seen Amy, Decarabia, and Buel, from this particular list of examples, and all are rather faithful representations of these designs.
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Post by arct1c0n on Jun 25, 2016 1:32:43 GMT -6
Oh my...what large...uh... "buoys" you have there lol!
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Post by demiurgos on Jun 25, 2016 1:58:01 GMT -6
Come to think of it, Vepar's got nothing on most of the pre-historic Venus figurines that have been found. Just check out this prime specimen, the Vénus de Lespugue. Our common history is filled with depictions like this one. This was the first that came to mind when I stumbled upon the boss in the demo.
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Post by Kaius on Jun 25, 2016 4:22:41 GMT -6
I'm really amused at the fact that a topic about a monster's boobs gets so much attention. First of all, I think the same way as most of us : I respect IGA's vision and I'm not offended by Vepar's boobs. When first Miriam shaders were released, there was the exactly same topic about her chest. Well, I like Miriam's shape. I like this monster's shape beacause, like Mike said, it could be pregnant or stocking its power into these flat bags we call 'boobs'. Also, I really love the Salomon's monsters and it seems Vepar is a mermaid but mixed with another ugly sea monster. Remember her face too, it looks like it's scaled or has a mask. What if Vepar was only a mermaid but got corrupted by glass, demons or alchemists ? I want to say : Let's wait and see what's under IGA's mind about the lore.
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Post by JeffCross on Jun 25, 2016 13:01:41 GMT -6
Wow so much talk about boobs lol but really this is par for the course. In many castlevania games there are overly sexy demons like the succubi, liliths and venus weeds.
I think it is the contrast between good and evil. Where the "good" female characters are modestly dressed (for the most part) and "evil" females are scantily clad or close to nude. This is only true with Iga's castlevania games, not the other games (eg Castlevania Judgment). Or at least this is my opinion.
That is the point of Castlevania, or at least the heart of it, which is what Bloodstained is trying to catch... the battle between good and evil.
P.S. Oh and don't get it twisted, I am not saying boobs are evil, I am saying "loose morals" are in the realm of evil.
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jun 25, 2016 20:36:20 GMT -6
Hmmm. I'd hafta say that I disagree with your opinion. Unfortunately (especially female) demons tend to have overdramatized physical characteristics. And one of those characteristics can be...well...haha.
Just remember, boobs are only lumps of fat. (and mammal's mammary glands for milk production) :p
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Post by saberwolf94 on Jun 26, 2016 4:17:28 GMT -6
I know it hurts for some of you to hear this but there is no such thing as something pointless in art. We could have lived with or without those huge boobs on that monster but if the the guy that drew wanted it to look like that it's his/her choice. And on another note women and sexualization of women has always been some of the greatest food for art since ancient times. It's how it was and how it is today. These things didn't just happen to occur randomly, some things just naturally flow they way they do, in the same way numerous people find small animals or babies cute for example. The matter is subjective in the end but there a large consensus as well. I understand some people will find the image gross, but you have to get over it and keep an open mind, in the same way some straight people find homosexual sexuality and acts gross. Your only other choice would be to keep away from the content then.
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Post by spideryfingers on Jun 26, 2016 5:41:26 GMT -6
Anyone remember the Queen Alien from Duke Nukem Forever? She had three monstrous boobs... Anyone who's played Duke Nukem Forever will know that boob-like growths are littered around certain locations throughout the game. He has to slap them around for a bit of energy Personally, I like creatures in all shapes and forms. In nature, animals, insects and plants can mimic a variety of many things. So, a colourful sea monster mimicking a woman with huge boobs isn't as daft as it sounds really
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zredgemz
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Post by zredgemz on Jun 26, 2016 6:24:43 GMT -6
The only thing i have to say about this topic is that when the game is released i expect to see articles about these sort of monsters, i have no issues with this since i really do not see this as one but i have seen a trend of public outcry over anything and everything in all media. As was pointed out in this thread, these monsters are from a source of books and i do expect a few that will original.
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Post by XombieMike on Jun 26, 2016 7:52:52 GMT -6
Such a popular topic. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this long discussion is that IGA probably couldn't have done this under Konami. This could be a demonstration of independence from corporate restrictions. Bloodstained is different from the industry expectations of new games by proving there is still interest in a traditional genre. Some are sure that Vepar is actually male. One might look at this as Vepar being IGA and the freedom of the big breasts swinging around for the player to take note of may parallel the freedom that IGA is showing the industry and his former company. Let your big boobies fly, IGA. Be free, IGA, be free.
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zredgemz
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Post by zredgemz on Jun 26, 2016 8:33:45 GMT -6
Japanese culture is different then ours anyways so konami might have been okay with this but i have no doubt that the western offices of konami would change the monster for a western release.
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Post by Risada on Jun 26, 2016 16:24:34 GMT -6
Such a popular topic. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this long discussion is that IGA probably couldn't have done this under Konami. This could be a demonstration of independence from corporate restrictions. Bloodstained is different from the industry expectations of new games by proving there is still interest in a traditional genre. Some are sure that Vepar is actually male. One might look at this as Vepar being IGA and the freedom of the big breasts swinging around for the player to take note of may parallel the freedom that IGA is showing the industry and his former company. Let your big boobies fly, IGA. Be free, IGA, be free. This. One thousand times this.
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