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Post by ohoni on Jun 8, 2016 0:37:02 GMT -6
Ok, what I'm about to say feels a bit heretical, even to me, so bear with me, but would it be possible for Miriam to move in and out of the plane slightly when platforming?
I love the classic 2D aesthetic, and actually wish this game were a bit more "2D" than it ended up, but it is 3D, and if it is going to be 3D, perhaps it could make better use of that dimensionality?
In the current demo footage, it shows her dropping through several platforms attached to a mast. This doesn't looks right, she's clearly phasing through a floor like Kitty Pryde. Is this a power she has? And if so, why not through other floors?
I think the solution would be to make it so that when she drops "through" platforms or leaps up "through" them in classic Igavania style, she instead moves slightly closer to the camera, passing in front of this platform, or landing on it. I'm only talking a couple in-game feet here, making her maybe 5% larger while closer to the camera, just a slight difference, not like some massive "run towards the camera" three-dimensionality.
For bonus points, have her turn slightly toward the camera when dropping down, and slightly away from the camera when hopping up. I understand that it would be tricky for the game to decide when she was "hopping towards a platform" verses just "hopping into the air," it might require a little "animation AI" there and be too difficult to implement, but the downward part should be easier, since that requires a specific button input to drop through the floor.
For double the bonus points, add some slight mantling animations to this process, so that as she passes up through a platform, she actually grabs it and lifts herself up.
For triple bonus points, you could actually have some "intangible floors" that are in the foreground and some in the background, such that when you do a climbing sequence like at 0:35, she would actually jump towards, away, towards, away as she ascends the platforms.
The actual gameplay of it would remain identical, in terms of raw flow it would play exactly as you would expect it to in an Igavania game, all that would change is the display of it, in a way that I think would make more sense.
Thoughts?
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Post by demiurgos on Jun 8, 2016 1:46:51 GMT -6
I love the classic 2D aesthetic, and actually wish this game were a bit more "2D" than it ended up, but it is 3D, and if it is going to be 3D, perhaps it could make better use of that dimensionality? Yes, I totally agree. Initially I also wanted more of a 2D vibe... but as it turned out to be pretty 3D'ish in the latest update footage, I think ohoni is on to something rad and desirable. The controls would still work like a 2D platformer, but Miriam's movement would adapt slightly to the environments. |
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Post by crocodile on Jun 8, 2016 3:10:20 GMT -6
Seems like a whole lot of extra effort and animation for no gameplay gains and next to little aesthetic gains?
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Post by demiurgos on Jun 8, 2016 6:39:11 GMT -6
Seems like a whole lot of extra effort and animation for no gameplay gains and next to little aesthetic gains? Well, it might make gameplay more enjoyable as it may look better and help the overall feeling along the way. That's the whole point. If it's reasonable or not is a hard question to answer, especially if this reflection is not even worth exploring. This is an idea and not a complete concept, obviously... and I don't think it's fair to shoot it down without further thought, as with all ideas in this fine forum. Although I share your healthy skepticism crocodile, maybe this is something that can be done within the limits of the enterprise that is Bloodstained. |
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 8, 2016 7:28:06 GMT -6
The thing about this for me is, if she passes through the floor in 3D space as she lowers herself, but doesn't when she's ascending, then that would be at least equally as jarring. However, for her to have both animated and instead and move up and around a platform as she jumps over it, Miriam would have to jump...at first vertically straight up, then have her trajectory change mid-jump as she's moving upward around the platform, possibly up to 2-3 times. So, say there are two platforms that lead up to a room transition above, her jump would have to look like this:
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If you were to only do a lighter press of the button, the jump may stop mid-...greater than symbol, which would make her do something that looks like:
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And then fall that way in reverse. I mean, sure, it's a video game...but having a jump animate that way would look really strange. You could force her to stop a jump at the next highest platform, but that's not how Castlevania classically works, and would make the feel of the game not as light/fun. Like I said initially, you could keep just a passing-through-floor animation, but then you're ignoring the discrepancy when you're going up. I think the animation flow should be kept uniform, and as 2D sprites already were passing through floors anyway, why not Miriam as well?
All this said, I do think it'd be possible to add a slight bit to the animation to make it clearer what's happened without a full, obvious "I'm going down and around this floor here" animation. A touch of the hand on the floor, maybe, as I believe I recall someone had mentioned from before when we saw the caramel test video.
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Post by Shax on Jun 8, 2016 8:41:31 GMT -6
Seems like a whole lot of extra effort and animation for no gameplay gains and next to little aesthetic gains? I agree with this. There doesn't seem to be any tangible benefit from going through all the effort to do something like that. Plus, there is also no guarantee that it would work correctly or mesh with the other animations nearly as well as the current. |
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Post by Ghalion on Jun 8, 2016 10:11:56 GMT -6
I just want a cheat or dev mode ng+ thing so players can take advantage of the 3d by having some camera control so we can check out the environments better. I really hate how lament of innocense has some gorgeous rooms you cant full enjoy cuz the camera is semi fixed.
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Post by giwagiwa on Jun 8, 2016 11:42:27 GMT -6
Her passing through platforms doesn't bother me. Sometimes you have to remind yourself it's a videogame and because of that reality is sacrificed for good mechanics.
For example, most platforming jumping arcs go straight up at a constant speed until the player releases the jump key, then they slowly accelerate towards the ground. This gives the player much more precise control over the jump but it's not realistic in any way.
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Post by Malek Deneith on Jun 8, 2016 12:24:31 GMT -6
That made me wonder... there must've been platformers in 2.5D right? I think one of the older castlevanias was remade in that style. How did they handle the situation there? Was the phasing an issue there too?
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jun 8, 2016 14:27:13 GMT -6
its one of those instances where suspension of disbelief is expected because a totally realistic depiction of movement in all cases would be incredibly complicated to code and animate, and in this case would actually serve to completely destroy any feeling of 2dness because like the devs doing guilty gear xrd pointed out, if you make the animation too smooth you lose the illusion of 2d
dracula x chronicles is rondo of blood in 2.5d, and i believe it uses the classicvania formula that jump mechanics trump platform collision on the bottom edge (meaning you cant bump your head on a ceiling but you can be stopped by hitting the side of a platform) and there are no fallthrough platforms, sotn changed this up a bit in that collision is active at all times (you can bump your head on a ceiling and be stopped by the side of a platform) and that there are special platforms that only have collision one way on the top edge (standing on them) that are 'phaseable' by jumping down through them
honestly, the amount of coding that would have to go into platform detection and extra animation for a vault up or ledge grab would not yield any more fun for what amounts to 3-6 extra frames of animation added onto a jump sometimes (if this were a game like strider where hanging from walls and the ceiling was an implemented game mechanic, then i could see doing a vault onto a platform or a ledge grab because next point), at most i think 1-2 frames added to the fallthrough animation where she places her hand where her feet are and it looks like shes hopping down and using her hand to guide her movement into the full fall would serve better since you already have a built in animation trigger of jumping down while on a 'phaseable' platform, which would give the illusion shes sliding toward the player and dropping off the edge or into a hole in the floor without actually changing her position on the stage
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Post by Goobsausage on Jun 8, 2016 21:13:42 GMT -6
Having Miriam move in front of the platforms is an good suggestion, but I have a feeling it might actually look a little weird, especially since I've gotten so used to characters phasing through platforms in games that I never considered it much of an issue.
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Post by ghaleon on Jun 8, 2016 22:22:37 GMT -6
If Miriam goes in front of or behind objects, it would make those background door and hallways that you can't interact/inspect all the more frustrating though...unless they make it so you CAN go thru/in them.
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Post by Dengojin on Jun 9, 2016 6:25:31 GMT -6
Nope, just nope.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Jun 9, 2016 8:29:39 GMT -6
I also feel this is a bad idea. Adding animations to show Miriam climbing various platforms could easily slow down the flow of movement. The pace of 'vania platforming has been virtually the same for nearly 20 years. I also agree with Astaroth in that people just tend not to think about these things: its a video game.
An additional note is that having her climb up and down with platform detection would make the game feel a lot like Mirror of Fate, Assassin's Creed Chronicles (just to make it clear I really like these games, but I know some really DON'T like them and I can still make my point) and other modern sidescrollers. Its a distinction I feel is important: in modern platformers you "climb up platforms" but in Castlevania, you "jump across platforms". Its much faster and maintains your momentum, which is a subtle but critical element that makes this game "feel" like the classics Bloodstained is trying to emulate.
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Post by ohoni on Jun 9, 2016 13:56:43 GMT -6
I definitely wouldn't want anything that would slow anything down. I'm only talking about animations that would replace existing frames, not add to them. Basically if they implemented what I proposed, and then run the same sequence in both the existing and new versions side by side, they would all happen in perfect synchronization, it would just look a little different.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jun 9, 2016 18:13:32 GMT -6
Well, what youre asking is not an actual animation thing, but a mechanic, there would need to be a check for platform, calculations would need to be performed whether to perform a normal jump or a platform jump, a sanity check would need to be made every frame in case you change direction midair, the game would need a cutoff point for the adjustment otherwise you could wiggle jump beside a platform and miriam would bounce between the 2 animations and itd look really jerky, like i said before if the game was already checking for platforms for something like climbing(strider, AC) or ledge grabs (metroid, AC) then the mechanic would be there already and this would be an animation consideration
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fatihG
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Post by fatihG on Jun 9, 2016 18:18:22 GMT -6
There is a simple way of doing this really, without needing to change anything gameplay related or animations.
The moment Miriam falls through or when she is phasing through any platform, they should change her z-depth dynamically, so she always renders in front of the platform.
Physically she would still be inside of the platform when falling through, however she will be render after the platform.
So the platform renders first and the Miriam renders on top of the platform... if that makes sense. =]
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Post by Astaroth on Jun 9, 2016 20:43:32 GMT -6
That might work, though an easier way to do that unless alternate camera angles are a thing, run things on panels like a sprite based game, you have your interactable object pane which is pc, enemies, doors, and attackable objects, behind that you have your platforms, and then that leads into the background, where that will fall apart though is if the camera angle ever changes it would break the illusion since miriam is technically floating in midair then, so any event that does have a different angle would have to be specially built and there would beed to be some transition like a wipe or fadeout to bridge the change between panels and integrated, kind of an interesting puzzle how to do that and keep miriam sized right>P
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Post by fatihG on Jun 9, 2016 21:04:47 GMT -6
What you suggested will not work for multiple reason. Unless the gamecamera uses an orthographic mode the Character will always look off because of perspective. If the character were to cast shadows, it would clearly cast the shadows wrongly. That's where z-depth comes into play though. You don't need to 'offset' anything. Miriam would still stand on top of the platform, however she will be rendered later in the frame. Doing this it will ensure Miriam is always rendered in front of the platform. Now with that in mind the reason I suggested doing it dynamically, is you do not want her to always be in front of the platform. For example if she is standing on top of a platform but the camera is below her (for example you are about to exit a scene from the top, the camera would be locked to the center of the room) you could possible see her feet pop out of the platform.  Also if it is done dynamically you can just turn it off for a special cutscene or whatever. Street Fighter V does this as well with the characters on screen. Even though they are always physically on the same plane, the characters never intersect. This effect is especially noticeable during a win pose. Look at the blond guys foot over the body of Ryu lying on the floor. You'd expect its foot to intersect with Ryu's body. |
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Post by Ghostpepper on Jun 9, 2016 21:20:50 GMT -6
I'll be honest, i'm 100% fine with her floating through certain platforms as long as it's obvious which ones you can do it on
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