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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 4, 2016 18:39:22 GMT -6
JeffCross I think what they mean is the optional character modes, in which case (For PoR) you would be playing as Stella/Lorreta, and no they don't have any other equipment that can be changed or equipped on them. yeah that's true, but I think they are wondering if the other "playable" characters will go down the lines of unshockable characters like Stella/Lorreta and Richter Belmont. but again I don't think those playable characters are going to go down that road. but that is just my opinion Yeah Me too. And honestly, I really hope that Gebel is a playable character, since he looks rad. I think that Miriam, Gebel, and Johannes will be the 3 playables, while Zangetsu will be in the prequel. In my OPINION. Don't wanna be spreading any MIS-INFORMATION. :p
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Post by crocodile on Jul 4, 2016 19:11:13 GMT -6
So it took me a bit of time but I finally found where Iga said he wanted to add more characters to the game. This was before Zangetsu was revealed so if Iga's plans haven't changed (they could have so there could be more or less characters) than we can expect two more named, plot relevant characters in the game. To me, player character speculation is significantly affected by A) How many named, plot relevant characters there are in the game B) How the actually process of selecting playable characters will be done It's very easy to imagine that one or both of the next two characters to be revealed could end up playable. We don't know anything about them. They could be anyone or anything. It's part of the reason why I'm so prone to clamping down on "X is totally going to be playable!" posts I see. Due is in part to manage expectations. I see this as something that comes up in every single crowdfunding project I've ever followed. Misinformation spreads easily and what becomes innocent and fair speculation can easily turn into "CONFIRMED!" if people aren't careful. Hell when the demo dropped, there were people who were surprised Bloodstained wouldn't be using pixel sprites. The other reason is that we straight up don't know all of our options. It's not "make a choice out of A, B or C" but rather "make a choice out of A, B, C, D or E". Speculation is fun so I'm not trying to discourage that - I personally just want to know what all my options are before I invest significant energy in into dreaming up movesets or whatever. It's very possible that the last two characters could blow us away (or not - again who knows). The second point is the selection process. Is Iga going to decide who else becomes playable on his own or is that going to be left up to the backers? You might be thinking that the later is unrealistic but its actually a pretty common precedent in crowdfunding. Shovel Knight let backers vote for the playable boss characters. That's the reason we got the Plague Knight campaign and the Specter Knight and King Knight campaigns are in the work - backers voted for them. Skullgirls raised enough money in their IGG campaign to fund 4.5 characters but they let backers choose who out of a list of about 30 would take two of those slots. They had two rounds of ranked voting - Eliza and Beowulf won and became playable characters in the game. The selection method for the next two playable characters is going to have a strong influence on who gets picked, how they play and the community reception to them. How this happens is all up to Iga - he obviously has the final say. However, I kind of hope we do get a character vote. I followed the voting campaigns for both Shovel Knight and Skullgirls. There was a bit of "salt" during and after the vote (and I would expect to see the same here) but overall the fanart, camaraderie, community building and discussions that followed made it all worth it. That and the selection of some sweet characters. Since Bloodstained is doing a staggered release ala Shovel Knight and Skullgirls - where all the content paid by the crowdfunding didn't come all at the same time, I could certainly imagine if the campaigns for the 2nd and 3rd playable character came out after the main game. Especially if Iga wanted to make them more robust than the alternate playable character modes he has done in previous Igavanias. In the end, I would like to see a character vote - there is a precedent for this in previous crowdfunding and it usually has produced good results. There's a risk you won't get what you want but that would be true even if Iga selected the character himself. Do others agree/disagree? Mana - is this something Iga has at all considered or would be open to?
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LeoLeWolferoux
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 4, 2016 19:29:17 GMT -6
So it took me a bit of time but I finally found where Iga said he wanted to add more characters to the game. This was before Zangetsu was revealed so if Iga's plans haven't changed (they could have so there could be more or less characters) than we can expect two more named, plot relevant characters in the game. To me, player character speculation is significantly affected by A) How many named, plot relevant characters there are in the game B) How the actually process of selecting playable characters will be done It's very easy to imagine that one or both of the next two characters to be revealed could end up playable. We don't know anything about them. They could be anyone or anything. It's part of the reason why I'm so prone to clamping down on "X is totally going to be playable!" posts I see. Due is in part to manage expectations. I see this as something that comes up in every single crowdfunding project I've ever followed. Misinformation spreads easily and what becomes innocent and fair speculation can easily turn into "CONFIRMED!" if people aren't careful. Hell when the demo dropped, there were people who were surprised Bloodstained wouldn't be using pixel sprites. The other reason is that we straight up don't know all of our options. It's not "make a choice out of A, B or C" but rather "make a choice out of A, B, C, D or E". Speculation is fun so I'm not trying to discourage that - I personally just want to know what all my options are before I invest significant energy in into dreaming up movesets or whatever. It's very possible that the last two characters could blow us away (or not - again who knows). The second point is the selection process. Is Iga going to decide who else becomes playable on his own or is that going to be left up to the backers? You might be thinking that the later is unrealistic but its actually a pretty common precedent in crowdfunding. Shovel Knight let backers vote for the playable boss characters. That's the reason we got the Plague Knight campaign and the Specter Knight and King Knight campaigns are in the work - backers voted for them. Skullgirls raised enough money in their IGG campaign to fund 4.5 characters but they let backers choose who out of a list of about 30 would take two of those slots. They had two rounds of ranked voting - Eliza and Beowulf won and became playable characters in the game. The selection method for the next two playable characters is going to have a strong influence on who gets picked, how they play and the community reception to them. How this happens is all up to Iga - he obviously has the final say. However, I kind of hope we do get a character vote. I followed the voting campaigns for both Shovel Knight and Skullgirls. There was a bit of "salt" during and after the vote (and I would expect to see the same here) but overall the fanart, camaraderie, community building and discussions that followed made it all worth it. That and the selection of some sweet characters. Since Bloodstained is doing a staggered release ala Shovel Knight and Skullgirls - where all the content paid by the crowdfunding didn't come all at the same time, I could certainly imagine if the campaigns for the 2nd and 3rd playable character came out after the main game. Especially if Iga wanted to make them more robust than the alternate playable character modes he has done in previous Igavanias. In the end, I would like to see a character vote - there is a precedent for this in previous crowdfunding and it usually has produced good results. There's a risk you won't get what you want but that would be true even if Iga selected the character himself. Do others agree/disagree? Mana - is this something Iga has at all considered or would be open to? It makes sense. We're glad you're here to keep things clean, and stop the spread of misinformation. Your work doesn't go unnoticed. :p And yeah, People DO tend to fly off the handle when more characters are announced, and people are like "OH MY GAWD THEY ARE TOTALLY GUNNA BE PLAYABLE!" I can see that being frustrating for the staff here, when nothing is confirmed. :[
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Post by XombieMike on Jul 4, 2016 20:55:56 GMT -6
I will assume that Zangetsu is playable. I will not assume Deep Silver is the publisher.
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Post by crocodile on Jul 4, 2016 21:05:23 GMT -6
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Post by XombieMike on Jul 4, 2016 21:09:09 GMT -6
Yeah. Got a problem with that?
Assumptions about playable characters seems like a sin to you, but the publisher hasn't been announced anywhere, and yet you have no problem with that.
Let people assume what they want. There's a difference between misinformation and speculation. People will expect what they expect. Just like you expect the publisher to be Deep Silver.
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Post by crocodile on Jul 4, 2016 22:30:27 GMT -6
I'm asking you why you're making that assumption. Why do you assume Zangetsu will be playable when literally all we know about the character is his bio? You can argue he has a high chance of being playable (his bio is very mechanical in nature and he fills a useful narrative hole) but we lack too much information to make an assumption he will be (how many characters in total will there be and what are there roles?; how will playable characters be chosen?; etc.) Nobody has been able to cite a source where Iga describes him as straight up playable and I've already given a citation demonstrating there are more characters coming and we still relatively little about the story. You are free to believe what you want but if you make a declarative statement, "I assume X to be true" I think that is free to be critiqued if it lacks sufficient support. I would think others would do the same of me. Again, "I think X is likely" =/= "I assume X to be true".
An IP trademark you can objectively look up and verify + Iga more or less admitting it when confronted with it are basically as much confirmation as you're going to get sans a formal announcement. That's why multiple journalism websites that write about gaming wrote up the story. I'm not making an assumption, I'm primarily using public data (the trademark) and then gauging the reaction of those who would be in a position to know. There is very little (non-zero but very little) wiggle room here - looking up trademarks has been a common practice to find out what IPs companies have and/or what they might intend to do with them. It's how countless products have been discovered before a formal announcement. They cost time and money to create and they only aren't productive when a project is abandoned or renamed (which won't happen here). The burden of proof has been more appropriately fulfilled in this circumstance than in the previous one.
To be absolutely clear, I'm not mad nor am I trying to be mean or combative. I'm a teacher and I do academic research. I write and I argue all the time. This is why I think the nature of an argument is just as important or more so than the conclusion. If I think a statement or argument is insufficiently supported, I'm going to call it out. It doesn't mean I think you or anyone else is a bad person or whatever.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 4, 2016 22:41:40 GMT -6
I'm asking you why you're making that assumption. Why do you assume Zangetsu will be playable when literally all we know about the character is his bio? You can argue he has a high chance of being playable (his bio is very mechanical in nature and he fills a useful narrative hole) but we lack too much information to make an assumption he will be (how many characters in total will there be and what are there roles?; how will playable characters be chosen?; etc.) Nobody has been able to cite a source where Iga describes him as straight up playable and I've already given a citation demonstrating there are more characters coming and we still relatively little about the story. You are free to believe what you want but if you make a declarative statement, "I assume X to be true" I think that is free to be critiqued if it lacks sufficient support. I would think others would do the same of me. Again, "I think X is likely" =/= "I assume X to be true". An IP trademark you can objectively look up and verify + Iga more or less admitting it when confronted with it are basically as much confirmation as you're going to get sans a formal announcement. That's why multiple journalism websites that write about gaming wrote up the story. I'm not making an assumption, I'm primarily using public data (the trademark) and then gauging the reaction of those who would be in a position to know. There is very little (non-zero but very little) wiggle room here - looking up trademarks has been a common practice to find out what IPs companies have and/or what they might intend to do with them. It's how countless products have been discovered before a formal announcement. They cost time and money to create and they only aren't productive when a project is abandoned or renamed (which won't happen here). The burden of proof has been more appropriately fulfilled in this circumstance than in the previous one. To be absolutely clear, I'm not mad nor am I trying to be mean or combative. I'm a teacher and I do academic research. I write and I argue all the time. This is why I think the nature of an argument is just as important or more so than the conclusion. If I think a statement or argument is insufficiently supported, I'm going to call it out. It doesn't mean I think you or anyone else is a bad person or whatever. Dude chill, let the man assume, he is not saying this is gospel truth, as far as I've read the only one who thinks this is serious is you... let people be. "Possibility" is in the title of the thread. People are having fun speculating and assuming... you should stop jumping down people's throats and let people have fun with this thread. We know your opinion, you don't want to call it before someone with 100% credibility. but you shouldn't ruin other people's fun because you don't agree with it. and yes I still ASSUME Zangetsu will be the third character.
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Post by WindsOfOsiris on Jul 4, 2016 22:48:20 GMT -6
Im thinkin Croc wants a solid logically answer to why you think that, i think when he asks things like that he comes off like a smart ### but i dont think he does, i think he just wants to hear XombieMikes reasoning for it. also its like croc is trying to make some people think before they dont process it as a solid idea. --- the kinda mom we need XD
Im trying to back you up Croc.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 4, 2016 22:52:16 GMT -6
I'm with XombieMike on this one honestly. It's easy to speculate for many reasons on who the playable characters are. For one, they're just plain more likely to be them compared to characters that are added later on. Why? : 1. They've obviously gotta start working on that sooner so the early characters just seem more likely. 2. There's a focus on their weapons when talking about them, IGA talking about Johhannes having a whip, and IGA going into details about Zangetsu's abilities and weapon, along with his mysterious arm. 3. Typically all the playable characters in these games are the MAIN cast. When has it not been? The fact is Zang, Johan, are part of the main cast and they're weapon based characters so yes it's very likely they're the playable characters. 4. Characters that get added beyond that main cast will most likely be boss based or side characters like Graham or characters like that. Which are never the characters you play as. So it's within perfect reason to assume and speculate that they're playable. They could add someone new to be playable but I think that's a LESS likely scenario then what's being assumed now
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 4, 2016 22:55:07 GMT -6
Im thinkin Croc wants a solid logically answer to why you think that, i think when he asks things like that he comes off like a smart ### but i dont think he does, i think he just wants to hear XombieMikes reasoning for it. also its like croc is trying to make some people think before they dont process it as a solid idea. --- the kinda mom we need XD Im trying to back you up Croc. I understand that, but ever so quickly he pounces on peoples assumptions or speculations... it makes speculating, which should be fun, and it makes it tiresome. I'm just saying Croc we know already, not to take anything here too seriously, but let's just have fun and dream a bit.
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Post by yoshi9048 on Jul 4, 2016 23:06:04 GMT -6
A few more reasons is that when the KS unlock released the second playable character milestone; there was a bunch of information about Johannes.
When the KS unlock released the third playable character milestone; there was again a ton of info regarding Zang.
This could easily be coincidence though. But the fact that these events are timed so coincidentally leaves me thinking one of two things. 1) these characters are indeed the new playable characters 2) these characters are red herrings to divert attention away from iga being a playable character (and boss! Don't underestimate his ability to multitask!)
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Post by crocodile on Jul 4, 2016 23:06:53 GMT -6
I would chill out but I'm not actually angry so that seems hard for me to do Speculation =/= Assumption I've never had any qualms about the former, only the latter <3 In favor of avoiding further derails, PM me if you want to talk about this detour further. Let's continue on with the speculation Also character vote? Is that an idea people like?
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 4, 2016 23:19:57 GMT -6
Yeah, poll is a cool idea. Do you remember a while back we had one about general archetypes we would like to see? Let me see if I can find that for reference... Wow, I forgot about this one: bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/39/who-playable-charactersI could have just bumped that instead of doing this, I think? Haha, ah well, it was quite old. This is the one I was thinking of earlier: bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/305/third-characterSo who should the choices be for the new poll? Johannes, Gebel, Zangetsu, Shovel Knight, new male, new female? I want another Charlotte or Belnades style character myself...
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 4, 2016 23:23:33 GMT -6
Yeah I wish we could get another girl too
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WindsOfOsiris
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Post by WindsOfOsiris on Jul 4, 2016 23:28:14 GMT -6
Yea another girl would be really awesome
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Post by crocodile on Jul 4, 2016 23:35:25 GMT -6
When I said a character vote, I meant more akin to the shader vote. As in an official poll sent by the development team through the kickstarter where the community (not just here but at large) would securely vote for which out of X clearly defined and formed options they would like to see playable. The final results of this poll would be public and binding. That's why I used those other kickstarters as examples (Shovel Knight, Skullgirls). I have no qualms with a forum preference poll (and as you pointed out we did something similar in the past) but that can't/shouldn't supersede an official poll by the dev team. My inquiry was "does that sound like something appealing to the forum or would people rather Iga just have complete say?" and "is the dev team even interested and willing to do something like that?" They have final say and we want to respect Iga's vision - its up to him to ok this not for us to twist his arm into doing it. The last inquiry is why I tagged Mana .
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LeoLeWolferoux
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Post by LeoLeWolferoux on Jul 4, 2016 23:43:13 GMT -6
Zangetsu Speculation
So a lot of people seem to think that Zangetsu will be one of the other playable characters, so I've decided to (much like my Gebel speculation) do a post of how he would function in Bloodstained. There are a few points I wanna cover, and these will be: - Storyline Incorporation
- Controlling Zangetsu
- Debut
I know there isn't a lot to go on, but I will do my best. So, here's how I think Zangetsu will function, should he be a playable character in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night.
-Storyline Incorporation
Zangetsu "comes from a small country far in the East...absolute hatred for not only the creatures themselves, (demons) but also the Alchemists that brought them to the Earth." I think this will reveal a large part of the plot in the story, should the option be available for Zangetsu to portrait protagonist. I believe that Zangetsu arrives at the demon castle with the ambition to destroy Gebel, and also afflicted with the curse, ultimately Miriam as well. With this insight in mind, I strongly believe that Zangetsu will be one of the story bosses, and defeating him will allude to a large plot reveal further down in the story. As far as story goes, there isn't much to go on, other than the fact that he carries a strong grudge against demons, as they are the source of loss for many of his previous friends, but for some of his limbs as well.
-Controlling Zangetsu
Ok, so one key point I want to bring up, is that Zangetsu uses a unique dual-wielding style not yet seen in the IGAvania series, and I believe this will be implemented well on console controllers. (Sorry, PC gamers) Similar to Miriam's Attack button, and spell button, I believe that the R1 and L1 triggers on the controller will unleashes Zangetsu's katana attacks, (L1 being the left-handed katana, R1 being the right-handed katana, button combination [L1, R1, R1, R1, L1, R1] will unleashes different Bushido techniques) and the rotation analog or 'directional shard' button, will control Zangetsu's Ofuda. Another speculation is the Zangetsu WILL have interchangeable Ofuda spells, however I don't believe that his equipment will be customizable. Zangetsu will level up and be capable or RPG elements, similarly to Miriam.
-Debut
Another popular topic that I would like to discuss is whether Zangetsu will debut in the main storyline first, or the prequel mini game Inti Creates releases. My personal opinion is that Zangetsu will NOT be in the prequel, as it is going to be mostly about Miriam, and what her life was like before the curse afflicted her body. I also predict that the prequel game will NOT be like a classic NES Castlevania, I believe it will be something entirely different. Just some of my thoughts.
So there is my insight for you guys. Sorry it's not a lot to go on, but I figured it's some food for thought until the next update on the kickstarter. So...hope you like this spec. :p I will probably do Johannes next, though not entirely sure, as Johannes kinda bores me. LOL
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 4, 2016 23:43:59 GMT -6
Oh, for sure, we'll only be trying to do that again if it is deemed helpful information for the team. I am curious though what the options would be, no idea if something "new" would be possible or just predetermined existing character choices. Just have to see.
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 4, 2016 23:45:02 GMT -6
In my opinion I think Iga should have full say in this matter, he has a storyline in mind and if there were a poll it might derail some of his Ideas... or not what do I really know anyway lol
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