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Post by Galamoth on May 28, 2018 2:03:38 GMT -6
BalancedHydra I would hope so. But this just seems like a little way to make up for the fact that the X series hasn't had a new game for 14 years now.
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Post by BalancedHydra on Jul 20, 2018 10:01:38 GMT -6
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Post by Galamoth on Jul 20, 2018 11:20:39 GMT -6
Wait, is that the manga where X obtains the "Clear Armor"?
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Post by BalancedHydra on Jul 20, 2018 11:51:04 GMT -6
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Post by Galamoth on Jul 20, 2018 13:56:06 GMT -6
BalancedHydra Well then... Yes, I can see it now! A future DLC for Mega Man X Legacy Collection! Or maybe it's a secret unlockable right in the base game? "Clear Armor" for X! "Clear High Buster" sold separately.
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Post by BalancedHydra on Jul 20, 2018 14:23:09 GMT -6
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Post by MorningSun on Jul 22, 2018 8:43:57 GMT -6
About the creation a new game. I wonder what approach would they even take this time.
I don't think Capcom is too worried about a consistent timeline, but they kinda tried to change it with the X1 remake that's also a reboot of sorts. Anyhow, I doubt they will ever make sequels to the Maverick Hunter X timeline. But since the timeline conflicts with other series, many plot holes are created.
Command Mission one such example, taking place where the Zero series should take place. Though I like a lot of elements on that game, I can understand why it's not considered canon.
And that happens even throughout the X series, with X6 taking place some few weeks after X5, even though all the endings in X5 mention some years or months being passed. And after X6, the continuity becomes really confusing too. The particular problem is the fact that the X series tries to make a serious environment, be more plot-driven and have deeper characters than the classic series, but many of the elements that work in the classic series don't work that well in the X series.
When Dr. Wily returns, it's fine, we know he will come back, and he doesn't die, and the game is very lighthearted and doesn't try to make it mysterious at all when someone is the "new" villain taking Wily's place (which of course, never happens), it's just like a children animated series with a simple plot that just exists for you to have a reason to do what you're doing. The personalities of the bosses (which aren't shown in-game most of time, but in books with additional information) are also often comical and lighthearted.
But then, when you have Sigma coming back sometimes out of nowhere (X6 and X7), it really harms the series, in my opinion. As he adds nothing to the overall story, and is often just an excuse to revive Sigma again. Gate, for example, was doing everything because he wanted, and for some reason, decided to revive Sigma just for the sake of it.
I honestly would prefer if X6 just continued X's story line, showing how he handled being without Zero anymore, and slowly progress to the Elf Wars and all of the events unseen, it would serve as a good build up to the Zero series, and they would still get the sales they wanted from the X series. And story would be more fleshed out. The Zero series has a great story, great characters and is great in every single way, in my opinion. But a lot of events in the X series after X6 conflict with the Zero series sometimes.
While I'm generally not this obsessed with timelines, in this series case, I would really love to see it being handled better, as it's one of my favorite series. I think after X5, the series could even have more games that take place in between other games, as opposed to just direct sequels (Like Castlevania, with games not taking place in chronological order.), that would be a good way to flesh out more of the story, without so many plot holes. We could see more of the Repliforce, which would give more emotional impact to the events of X4 in hindsight. And we could experience the events that lead up to the Zero series, and so on.
I understand that it must be hard to keep a story for a long running series, but I still wish they would take this approach.
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Post by Cernex on Jul 24, 2018 1:41:16 GMT -6
So, it goes out for sale today, of all days.
Anybody getting it? Keep us posted on how well it plays!
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Post by tav7623 on Aug 1, 2018 20:45:53 GMT -6
So, it goes out for sale today, of all days. Anybody getting it? Keep us posted on how well it plays! I picked up Vol.1 (digitally for Xbox One) on Friday (prior to getting it I"d only played the first X game, which I really enjoyed, and since I had heard that X5-X8 sucks I opted to just stick with Vol.1 instead of picking up both) and I have so far managed to 100% complete both X & X2 (though I F****NG hated 100% completing X2 partially because I started having some "controller response" issues while I was playing it and I especially hated trying to get to room that has the "secret" weapon in it.....which took me at least 45 attempts just to reach....the first time....only to find out I messed up and had to do it all over again....) in the span of 4 days. I also finished all the X Challenge mode which started off kinda easy (I managed to beat the first challenge with just the X-buster), but by the time I got to the final challenge it became a whole lot harder/more challenging (especially when trying to do it only using the X-Buster) and in a few instances I managed to finish the challenge just by the skin of my teeth. Now I do plan on 100% completing both X3 and X4 though I think I'll do that once I've taken a little "break" (I think I might play all the way through another game before I come back to the Legacy Collection) since I was raging really hard at X2 by the time I got towards the end of the game.
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Post by RichterB on Aug 2, 2018 21:01:40 GMT -6
About the creation a new game. I wonder what approach would they even take this time. I don't think Capcom is too worried about a consistent timeline, but they kinda tried to change it with the X1 remake that's also a reboot of sorts. Anyhow, I doubt they will ever make sequels to the Maverick Hunter X timeline. But since the timeline conflicts with other series, many plot holes are created. Command Mission one such example, taking place where the Zero series should take place. Though I like a lot of elements on that game, I can understand why it's not considered canon. And that happens even throughout the X series, with X6 taking place some few weeks after X5, even though all the endings in X5 mention some years or months being passed. And after X6, the continuity becomes really confusing too. The particular problem is the fact that the X series tries to make a serious environment, be more plot-driven and have deeper characters than the classic series, but many of the elements that work in the classic series don't work that well in the X series. When Dr. Wily returns, it's fine, we know he will come back, and he doesn't die, and the game is very lighthearted and doesn't try to make it mysterious at all when someone is the "new" villain taking Wily's place (which of course, never happens), it's just like a children animated series with a simple plot that just exists for you to have a reason to do what you're doing. The personalities of the bosses (which aren't shown in-game most of time, but in books with additional information) are also often comical and lighthearted. But then, when you have Sigma coming back sometimes out of nowhere (X6 and X7), it really harms the series, in my opinion. As he adds nothing to the overall story, and is often just an excuse to revive Sigma again. Gate, for example, was doing everything because he wanted, and for some reason, decided to revive Sigma just for the sake of it. I honestly would prefer if X6 just continued X's story line, showing how he handled being without Zero anymore, and slowly progress to the Elf Wars and all of the events unseen, it would serve as a good build up to the Zero series, and they would still get the sales they wanted from the X series. And story would be more fleshed out. The Zero series has a great story, great characters and is great in every single way, in my opinion. But a lot of events in the X series after X6 conflict with the Zero series sometimes. While I'm generally not this obsessed with timelines, in this series case, I would really love to see it being handled better, as it's one of my favorite series. I think after X5, the series could even have more games that take place in between other games, as opposed to just direct sequels (Like Castlevania, with games not taking place in chronological order.), that would be a good way to flesh out more of the story, without so many plot holes. We could see more of the Repliforce, which would give more emotional impact to the events of X4 in hindsight. And we could experience the events that lead up to the Zero series, and so on. I understand that it must be hard to keep a story for a long running series, but I still wish they would take this approach. I'm glad to hear someone else cares about the story. I keep hearing comments in reviews that the X series takes itself too seriously and spends too much time on story. The art direction and story/characters is part of what makes me love this series.
They kind of did a little bit of what you're saying with side stories with Xtreme 1 and Xtreme 2, the latter including Repliforce's Iris.
I'm one of those few who can find a silver lining in any X series game, but I actually think the cohesiveness of the story started to come undone as early as X4. The whole point of X3 seemed to be the elimination of Sigma as a viral entity. Yet he's somehow back with a body at the beginning of X4 and there is suddenly a new Reploid-led military force. (And where is Dr. Cain?!) Then, I think it's starting in X5 that we get teases about Dr. Wily returning in some form...but that just fizzles out, as does the foreshadowed and fated "battle to the end" between X and Zero. X6 (which in my opinion has one of the most interesting stories, top to bottom, despite its missteps) gives us the intriguing Isoc, who seems to be perhaps controlled by Dr. Wily or be one in the same given his interest in Zero, but then that plot is never continued in any later X games. The Zero series seems to try to fill this hole by introducing "Weil," but there's never any real confirmation that he is Dr. Wily and it feels slapdash. (The Zero series for me dropped the ball in terms of storytelling after the second game...it just felt rushed and refused to wholeheartedly tie itself together with the X series we knew and the dangling threads it left.)
X7 is when things get really jarring, because we get yet another new Reploid-hunting force, Red Alert, out of nowhere; a mysteries new type of Reploid in Axl who can copy DNA more extensively than any other Reploid; and Sigma returning after being nothing more than a zombie who couldn't have even have existed without Gate. Now, Red Alert makes some sense considering the events of X5 and X6--probably vigilante groups would have emerged from such destruction (it makes a lot more sense than Repliforce emerging from Doppler's limited rebellion, though I suppose I could accept that, too.) Nevertheless, in retrospect, I can see that Red Alert as a concept isn't completely as out of left field as I first thought back when the game came out. But the mystery of Axl kind of remains...and doesn't go anywhere as I recall. The main problem is X7 seems like a soft reboot of the story, dismissing a lot of the things that were being built up. In X8 we get new Reploids based off Axl's design, I think, and a migration to space based on the destruction still around from X5's ending, so that's good. But then it's more Sigma with a dash of so-so Lumine. Later on we got ZX and ZX Advent which are so far ahead that they start to lead into Legends and, like some of the latter Zero stories, didn't satisfy my need for more information about the X era.
I did not like the way things were being rewritten with the PSP entry, despite it being a fine game in its own right.
So, if I were doing X9, depending on if it's the full lead-in to the Maverick Wars/Elf Wars stuff, I would definitely want the Isoc story and the Axl story resolved, and maybe tie in Wily to Weil...maybe as a mentor or something. As things are, X series feels too incomplete and the Zero series feels too disconnected to me. That's all the time I have to comment on this right now, though. Sometime later I might like to comment on how I think the game design might be handled, and the general game design of the series up to this point.
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Galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on Aug 3, 2018 2:04:24 GMT -6
It really isn't that surprising to know that Sigma could still survive as separate computer viruses. ^ Sigma's final line is: "But... someday... I... will..." (Implying that he still can return. He has yet to be completely defeated.) You probably wouldn't know that Dr. Cain himself was responsible for creating the Repliforce organization unless you had the manual for X4. I believe it's a detail they decided on at the last minute. In X2, there's another Reploid character named Serges who heavily hints through dialogue (especially in the original Japanese) that he's at least connected to Wily; there's also the fact that Serges is apparently the only living individual who is capable of repairing & rebuilding Zero, and hence is the in-universe reason why Zero receives a design-change in X3 (Zero is "completed" by Serges). Meanwhile, Weil is a completely unrelated character. He was just an underappreciated mad scientist who had a really low opinion of reploids, and was responsible for starting the very conflict that led to the Zero series. Plus, none other than Keiji Inafune confirmed that Weil isn't Wily (and that official statement has yet to be contradicted).
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 3, 2018 8:06:44 GMT -6
tav7623 if you end up wanting more, I would not agree that 5-8 "suck" at all, just probably X7. 5 and 6 are mostly derivative of X4, but that isn't a bad thing by any means and X8 is a pretty good 2.5D game. I had actually been thinking of only getting vol.2 because I've already played the heck out of 1-4 time and again.
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Post by RichterB on Aug 3, 2018 13:35:30 GMT -6
It really isn't that surprising to know that Sigma could still survive as separate computer viruses. ^ Sigma's final line is: "But... someday... I... will..." (Implying that he still can return. He has yet to be completely defeated.) You probably wouldn't know that Dr. Cain himself was responsible for creating the Repliforce organization unless you had the manual for X4. I believe it's a detail they decided on at the last minute. In X2, there's another Reploid character named Serges who heavily hints through dialogue (especially in the original Japanese) that he's at least connected to Wily; there's also the fact that Serges is apparently the only living individual who is capable of repairing & rebuilding Zero, and hence is the in-universe reason why Zero receives a design-change in X3 (Zero is "completed" by Serges). Meanwhile, Weil is a completely unrelated character. He was just an underappreciated mad scientist who had a really low opinion of reploids, and was responsible for starting the very conflict that led to the Zero series. Plus, none other than Keiji Inafune confirmed that Weil isn't Wily (and that official statement has yet to be contradicted). Great points. The X-Hunters storyline is another of my favorites in the series. I should have mentioned Serges, but I was in a hurry and, just thinking forward, and Isoc seemed to be the last major Wily reference. The designer in the MM25 artbook even suggested Wily was used as a visual reference. As for Sigma, you're correct. There's a lot of that foreshadowing with him, ever since the awesome post-credits scene in X1. It's just that it's been stretched for so long, I almost think of him as unbeatable. It makes him a great villain (one of the best in gaming, perhaps), and I've never particularly been sad with his returns on the whole, but I wish there wasn't so much build-up of this is the "last time!" I think X8, if I recall right, went really far out of its way to say that this is the last we'll see of Sigma. But Lumine was not very exciting so far, so I hope they've got someone like Command Mission's big bad. Who knows? There's been some compelling secondary villains in the series.
Speaking of which, I forgot to mention that outside of the basic timeline setup being too far in the future, there's nothing really that wrong with the basic story of Command Mission fitting into the broader X saga, I don't think.
I maybe vaguely recall that mention of Dr. Cain in X4's manual. I guess I should pull that box out sometime. But I'm trying to figure out if Dr. Cain is alive or dead. The way X's story jumps forward several times, I'm never sure. In Maverick Hunter X, they kind of showed him partially cyberized, but then he also gets offed before the series really begins in that telling. I think the change of him having life support made sense, since there had to be a good amount of time for Reploids to be developed from X's found body (I think that's what the old SNES manual said, IIRC).
When you mention Zero's changes...I do think the way Zero's been brought back to life has at times been clumsy. X2 was fine, but X6 felt very forced (even though I like X6 and its Nightmare Zero subplot). Zero says he auto-repaired himself, but he was in bad shape from X5. I wonder if he didn't have outside help. That would be intriguing to follow up on. Maybe Isoc or someone like him revived Zero, and then he escaped. Nightmare Zero was partially a ruse to have the Investigators out and looking for the real Zero, so that might make sense.
As far as Weil and Wily. It's good to hear that confirmation. I probably read that at some point; I know that he said he wanted Serges to be vague in the MM25 artbook to leave it open to interpretation. But the problem for me was, the original X series was building up to something like Weil, and I feel like Inafune abandoned ship to work on the Zero series, but then the Zero series never really properly culminated into what was promised in the X saga. Calling the villain Weil and having him involved in Zero's past just felt like trolling to me. (As an aside, while the Zero series had a super interesting and creative aesthetic, it never appealed to me as much as the X aesthetic. And aside from general art direction, the games a really washed-out color palette I couldn't quite love as time went on.)
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Post by Galamoth on Aug 3, 2018 14:33:12 GMT -6
RichterB As for Command Mission (and sorry, the Quote & Tag button functions seem to be failing me on this computer right now), it has always seemed to me to be on an alternate timeline route from the Zero series; just like X6, X7, & X8 before it. Though only because X5 was originally intended to be what lead into the Zero series. My impression of Sigma's defeat in X8 is that the Hunters finally found the "core" Sigma, hinting in the Ending dialogue that they may truly have defeated him once and for all. Though, to be fair, every other New-Generation Reploid the Hunters fought contained his data... so there's always the possibility that he'll return once again (though he was missing from Command Mission). Zero "repairing himself" in X6 is considered a mistranslation because the original Japanese only states that he was "mysteriously repaired". And then there's the fact that the time-span between X5 & X6 is only three weeks (rather than "three years"). My personal guess is that Serges is once-again responsible for that. ^ Speaking of X6's many terribly rushed translations... there's the infamous "JUSDIE ZELLO!" by Sigma, and the lesser-known two instances of "Reploids" that were mistranslated from mentions of "Repliforce" (one in a boss-description for Metal Shark Player, and one in Gate's late-game dialogue before his Lab stages).
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Post by RichterB on Aug 3, 2018 15:09:50 GMT -6
tav7623 if you end up wanting more, I would not agree that 5-8 "suck" at all, just probably X7. 5 and 6 are mostly derivative of X4, but that isn't a bad thing by any means and X8 is a pretty good 2.5D game. I had actually been thinking of only getting vol.2 because I've already played the heck out of 1-4 time and again. If you're really into the world of Mega Man X, all of the games are worth playing. But if you're more of a casual Mega Man/MMX fan or casual action-platformer genre fan, you'll probably have trouble with some of them. I would say that 1-4 are the most essential, with X1 and X4 having understandably made the most noise among the more casual crowd. Here's my quick, spoiler-free rundown of the series. X1: Pretty much the gold standard for the series, though there are few awkward segments--particularly regarding power-ups--that are rarely discussed and interestingly forgiven when they would not be by gamers in later titles. Even so, it's probably the best in the series. X2: Very close to X1, but it expands upon the versatility and variety of gameplay in some really important ways. Due to its side-quest and mysterious subplot, it rivals X1 as my favorite game in the series. X3: While still reminiscent of X1 and X2, this game is much more ambitious and has an overall grittier tone. The implementation of its many new secret features related to power-ups, bosses, and a second albeit limited playable character, together with its generally longer level structure, create some notable balance issues. However, this also adds to its replay value, assuming you have the patience to match its ambition and play through it different ways. It's memorable, and in some ways surpasses the first two games, but on the whole I don't think I'd rank it as high. I recommend the SNES version.
X4: The first 32-bit X game is the most solid of its era. It doesn't feel quite the same as X1-3 because of its larger sprites--the pace is a little slower and the level design a little more cramped--but it's a legitimate interpretation and continuation of the series into the 32-bit era that is very enjoyable. Some people put it right after (or even above) X1 as their favorite. (I think its sort of a Super Castlevania IV vs. SotN argument on some level.) I need to replay it again to see where I put it--right now I'd put it either third or fourth best) but I enjoyed it a lot. This game strips back or reworks most everything that's been added to the formula since X1, and so it's a more straightforward game; however, it makes up for that with two fully playable characters with their own storylines and unique gameplay quirks. It also has really nice anime cut scenes, albeit with bad voice acting. If you're a fan of the series, though, you'll be happy about some of the new story explorations and the vibrant art direction that continues to build on the "cool" factor of the X saga. X5: This game follows X4's general visual style, but it brings in several new and rather clunky gameplay elements that really bog the game down and create unnecessary anxiety. The game talks to you more in the vein of Ocarina of Time's Navi, and more so than any other game in the series, there are multiple endings depending on your actions and the speed in which you complete them. While X3 got a little convoluted with all of its new hidden gameplay systems, this is the first time the series started to feel overtly confusing to me. The game didn't convey to me the level of consequences I would or would not be facing for the way I carried out my save file. That's good in a way, as it adds a lot of new suspense, but I found it kind of stressful. That said, there are some quality of life and gameplay diversity reworks, like you can now switch between X or Zero before entering a level without having to start a new save file, you can now duck, and there are now ropes you can climb. The story has real tension to it and some interesting surprises, but I don't know that I liked it as much as previous games in any particular capacity. X6: This game is more in the vein of X5 than X4 in the way that it can feel confusing and clunky. It's generally more demanding than X5--and it has some weird, unfair NES hard-style design in spots--but because the time limit is gone, I didn't find it as stressful personally. They also streamlined some of the new systems from X5, making them less obtrusive or more interesting. Even so, this game throws a lot at you. There is a new procedural generation system of sorts to this one that I do not fully understand to this day that affects the enemies and stages at certain points, and the kind of more obscure optional secrets of X3 are back. The game really feels like if you did X3 through the lens of X5. That said, I somehow like it more than X5. It just feels more interesting on the whole. The plot is one of the most convoluted in the series, but that added to the intrigue for me. When I think of the X series, my first instinct is always to put this above X5. This is one of the X games that always sticks out in my mind--perhaps because it's so eccentric--even though it's one of the most reviled. X7: This game is an experiment. That's the best mindset to go into this one with. It's a fascinating experiment, though. This is really only for the hardcore Mega Man X fan. It tried to evolve the series into 3D in half-steps; some areas are 2.5D, some areas are full 3D. At times, it works, giving you a taste of how it would feel to do the moves you do in the other games in full 3D, like wall kicks and air dashes and powerful ride armors. There's also some ambitious new play control ideas with a new third playable character, and an in-level character swap system*. But many times, the game as a whole feels rather forced and clunky. It's rough around the edges at best, and broken at worst. Subjectively, I get a kick out of it. It went out of its way to take a risk in evolving the series, and I respect that. If we get as far as an X10, I want to see them try to perfect the half measures here, as I think there is potential. As it is, objectively, it's one of the worst in the series. X8: This game is a response to X7. Some of its levels even seem to be referencing X7. However, it plays it much safer. Instead of going full 3D, it refines the 2.5D portions of X7 into a style of gameplay that feels largely like X5 and X6, but more streamlined in its flow. That said, it also adds new wrinkles with new power-up systems and more importance of swapping between characters. It's a fun little experience that is probably far more accessible than X5-X7, but it's not particularly spectacular. It does have quite a few unlockables, including up to six main playable characters.
Command Mission: An enjoyable and intriguing RPG take on Mega Man X. It basically does for X what Mario RPG did for Mario. Xtreme: A roughly 8-bit remix of Megaman X 1 and 2 with a few news bosses and a new plot. It's all right, but nothing to write home about. Xtreme 2: Never played it. Heard it's the same as Xtreme 1, albeit remixing X1, X2, and X3 together, but with a character swap system* implemented prior to X7.
Maverick Hunter X: A really solid 2.5D remake of X1 that adds Vile as a playable character. It's interesting, but sort of superfluous. It was supposed to be part of a lineup of X remakes that would rewrite the story and refine later games, as I recall. NOTE: @ MorningSun & others: If they ever do an X9, I see it playing it safe. Based on what they are doing with Mega Man 11, I think that X9 will be a modern mixing of Maverick Hunter X and X8. RichterB As for Command Mission (and sorry, the Quote & Tag button functions seem to be failing me on this computer right now), it has always seemed to me to be on an alternate timeline route from the Zero series; just like X6, X7, & X8 before it. Though only because X5 was originally intended to be what lead into the Zero series. My impression of Sigma's defeat in X8 is that the Hunters finally found the "core" Sigma, hinting in the Ending dialogue that they may truly have defeated him once and for all. Though, to be fair, every other New-Generation Reploid the Hunters fought contained his data... so there's always the possibility that he'll return once again (though he was missing from Command Mission). Zero "repairing himself" in X6 is considered a mistranslation because the original Japanese only states that he was "mysteriously repaired". And then there's the fact that the time-span between X5 & X6 is only three weeks (rather than "three years"). My personal guess is that Serges is responsible for that. ^ Speaking of X6's many terribly rushed translations... there's the infamous "ZELLO!" by Sigma, and the lesser-known two instances of "Reploids" that were mistranslated from mentions of "Repliforce" (one in a boss-description for Metal Shark Player, and one in Gate's late-game dialogue before his Lab stages). [No worries; I decided to make the above a new post rather than an edit once you replied]
Well, the interesting thing is that X6 shows an ending where Zero goes into his sleeping chamber for the Zero 1 game. (Part of the reason I was surprised that X7 even happened.) The timeframe of this ending is debatable, but it does point to a relationship between the latter X games and the Zero series. And then there's the fact that Axl is introduced in X7 and is referenced in theory in ZX Avent, which is an eventualy sequel to the Zero series. I know Inafune wanted X5 to be the ending to the series...but that never sat well with me somehow.
Couldn't Serges and Isoc be one in the same? Wily swapping proxy bodies? I got the impression Serges as we knew him was trashed in X2.
You're impression about X8 seems to hold water.
Thanks for the X6 info. I had heard about the mistranslations, but never tracked them down. See, that makes things even more interesting regarding what happened with Zero. Speaking of Isoc, the Erasure thing that happens to him seems to vaguely connect to an event in Xtreme 2, but I'm not sure what the significance of that is. Oh, and High Max sort of strikes me as a very Wily thing to do, in the vein of Bass and Ballade, etc. (As an aside, his boss fight is really clever, too, in the way it plays gameplay-wise with the story of him being invincible.).
Are you telling me Metal Shark Player was a member of Repliforce? That's interesting. In general, I really like it how each boss has some connection to Gate and Alia's pasts in X6, or some major player--like X knew Shield Sheldon. The personal connections between characters out in the field and back at Hunter Base, the mystery of the Nightmare Phenomenon and Zero's disappearance, the seemingly-allied-but-working-for-their-own-agendas Gate, Isoc, and High Max...X6 just connected with me really well. Oh, and X6 had the original Japanese audio dialogue and J-Rock vocal tracks, which added a lot to the feel of it, especially considering the voice acting of X4 was so bad (it might be worse than X7 in retrospect) and it wasn't until later games where we got above-average English VA work.
You know, X5 introduced Dynamo, who I thought was interesting but underutilized. Based on his design, outside of High Max, I kind of thought he'd be the Bass of the X series and reinforce Wily's involvement. His desire to get more power in X6 sort of follows this notion, but then he never appears again. I'll be looking for him in X9. I even have some side notion that he could eventually be a playable ally of some kind if they continued to evolve him. Especially since one of the X8 endings suggests Axl might be tainted with evil after facing Lumine, IIRC.
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Post by Galamoth on Aug 3, 2018 20:33:40 GMT -6
RichterB Yeah, though the biggest problem with the ZX Advent theory regarding Axl is that Model A is insisted on being purely an original creation of Master Albert ("made in his image"); down to the fact that Model A was intended as a "back up" for Model W in-case it was destroyed. A "spare 'Ultimate Mega Man'", as Grey put it. The fact that Model A was also an intentional reference to Axl (including mannerisms & its signature A-Trans ability) is unfortunately independent of the actual character. In-universe, Model A is not based on Axl. I don't think Serges & Isoc are one in the same, and here's why: Whereas Serges displayed knowledge of how to rebuild Zero and even how to "complete" him (as Dr. Wily's blueprints intended; which would be amazingly coincidental if he wasn't connected to Wily, as the existence of Dr. Wily was not common knowledge by the time of the X-series), Isoc only indicated that he was trying to find Zero in dialogue with Gate and had shown no signs of being the one who repaired him in the original Japanese. As for Serges being destroyed in X2? If he really is connected to the stubborn mad-scientist Dr. Wily in any way, I'm sure he'd be prepared for the more-than-likely possibility of X destroying him (maybe having copies of himself locked away for later activation). ^ It ultimately comes down to the fact that Serges did something that nobody else in the X-series knew how to do (especially up to X5, where Signas states that Zero's systems are still a complete mystery). Isoc, on the other hand, just has the "look" (his design seems to vaguely invoke Wily), and has supreme confidence that Zero is superior to X. ^ Maybe you're half-right. Maybe they're both continuations of Wily in their own right, but whoever "mysteriously repaired" Zero in X6; ...I'm convinced it was not Isoc. I'm not entirely sure myself if Metal Shark Player really was a member of Repliforce, just that the boss-description of him was supposed to indicate that he was trying to recreate it. The plot-device of Lumine leaving a piece of himself in Axl from X8's ending is actually vaguely revisited in Command Mission (though you're not expected to pick up on it because CM was actually released before X8; despite it taking place after X8's events). Though there's obviously no hint of Axl being tainted with evil, his Copy Ability has become much more powerful, to the point that he's able to transform into many of the powerful maverick bosses that are fought in CM's story.
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Post by RichterB on Aug 4, 2018 15:42:33 GMT -6
RichterB Yeah, though the biggest problem with the ZX Advent theory regarding Axl is that Model A is insisted on being purely an original creation of Master Albert ("made in his image"); down to the fact that Model A was intended as a "back up" for Model W in-case it was destroyed. A "spare 'Ultimate Mega Man'", as Grey put it.
The fact that Model A was also an intentional reference to Axl (including mannerisms & its signature A-Trans ability) is unfortunately independent of the actual character. In-universe, Model A is not based on Axl.
I don't think Serges & Isoc are one in the same, and here's why: Whereas Serges displayed knowledge of how to rebuild Zero and even how to "complete" him (as Dr. Wily's blueprints intended; which would be amazingly coincidental if he wasn't connected to Wily, as the existence of Dr. Wily was not common knowledge by the time of the X-series), Isoc only indicated that he was trying to find Zero in dialogue with Gate and had shown no signs of being the one who repaired him in the original Japanese. As for Serges being destroyed in X2? If he really is connected to the stubborn mad-scientist Dr. Wily in any way, I'm sure he'd be prepared for the more-than-likely possibility of X destroying him (maybe having copies of himself locked away for later activation). ^ It ultimately comes down to the fact that Serges did something that nobody else in the X-series knew how to do (especially up to X5, where Signas states that Zero's systems are still a complete mystery). Isoc, on the other hand, just has the "look" (his design seems to vaguely invoke Wily), and has supreme confidence that Zero is superior to X. ^ Maybe you're half-right. Maybe they're both continuations of Wily in their own right, but whoever "mysteriously repaired" Zero in X6; ...I'm convinced it was not Isoc.
I'm not entirely sure myself if Metal Shark Player really was a member of Repliforce, just that the boss-description of him was supposed to indicate that he was trying to recreate it.
The plot-device of Lumine leaving a piece of himself in Axl from X8's ending is actually vaguely revisited in Command Mission (though you're not expected to pick up on it because CM was actually released before X8; despite it taking place after X8's events). Though there's obviously no hint of Axl being tainted with evil, his Copy Ability has become much more powerful, to the point that he's able to transform into many of the powerful maverick bosses that are fought in CM's story. Interesting suppositions and facts all around. Having last played (and beaten) ZX Advent circa 9 or 10 years ago (and having had a lukewarm reaction to the whole affair), I had completely forgotten the story elements you noted regarding Model A. And since Command Mission takes place after X8, you bring up a great point regarding Axl's fate I never really considered...
However, while I can see why you're bullish on Serges (and rightfully so), I think you're maybe undercutting Isoc just a bit. I think the two may have more in common if the translation is at least in the ballpark:
Rather suspicious...though, in this translation it says he found out he's alive, so I'm not sure if that means he actually rebuilt him. Still, he knows way more about Zero than he should--he can basically shut him down--and seems to hold some strange pride toward Zero. I wonder if maybe Wily's consciousness is separated between multiple units that have different levels of knowledge that are meant to watch over and foster Zero toward his true mission. Then aain, maybe Isoc was just infected with Zero's data from working with Gate, and so he developed the knowledge and attachment by osmosis. But I'm not sure.
Unless...do you think the Zero series' intention was that all the stuff hinting at Wily in the X series was actually meant to foreshadow a completely different person from the start in Weil? Was he the "doctor" talked about in the X series?
Regarding whether or not X6 and beyond ruin the continuity...I think they still tried to put things together a bit: i.e. It's notable how Snipe Anteater in X7 still seems to babble about X and Zero's fate, which seems to link to what was talked about in X5 and/or else foreshadows the Zero series (unless it's a reference to Zero vs. the original Mega Man):
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Post by Galamoth on Aug 4, 2018 16:45:19 GMT -6
RichterB Yeah, maybe I am undercutting Isoc. I have seen that dialogue indicating that Isoc knows how to capture Zero (and immediately demonstrating he can immobilize him), but I'm in doubt because of more than just the fact that he only found him rather than being the one to repair him (unlike Serges). ^ Remember that "piece of debris" that Gate finds in the beginning of the game? The first time we see Isoc is only after you complete the Intro Stage, and he is evidently working (as a cover) to warn people about the "Nightmare" supposedly caused by a "ghost of Zero". Then, in the stage just before the [third] battle against High Max, there's a scene with Gate; he reveals that the "piece of debris" he found is in-fact a "piece of Zero". He created his "Investigators" (mavericks) using Zero's DNA as part of his insane plan to create an ideal world of only high-end Reploids. Now, the circumstances of Isoc's body being empty ("erased") are certainly mysterious, but it's part of why I'm convinced he had no prior connection to Wily. To me, he seems to have only been involved with Gate, and only knew of Zero thanks to that "piece of debris" that Gate found in the beginning. As for Weil, I'm confident that the idea of his character only came about since late into Z2's development (the second game's after-credits scene hinted at his arrival in the third game).
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Post by RichterB on Aug 11, 2018 13:26:50 GMT -6
RichterB Yeah, maybe I am undercutting Isoc. I have seen that dialogue indicating that Isoc knows how to capture Zero (and immediately demonstrating he can immobilize him), but I'm in doubt because of more than just the fact that he only found him rather than being the one to repair him (unlike Serges). ^ Remember that "piece of debris" that Gate finds in the beginning of the game? The first time we see Isoc is only after you complete the Intro Stage, and he is evidently working (as a cover) to warn people about the "Nightmare" supposedly caused by a "ghost of Zero". Then, in the stage just before the [third] battle against High Max, there's a scene with Gate; he reveals that the "piece of debris" he found is in-fact a "piece of Zero". He created his "Investigators" (mavericks) using Zero's DNA as part of his insane plan to create an ideal world of only high-end Reploids. Now, the circumstances of Isoc's body being empty ("erased") are certainly mysterious, but it's part of why I'm convinced he had no prior connection to Wily. To me, he seems to have only been involved with Gate, and only knew of Zero thanks to that "piece of debris" that Gate found in the beginning. As for Weil, I'm confident that the idea of his character only came about since late into Z2's development (the second game's after-credits scene hinted at his arrival in the third game). Yeah, I recalled the whole "piece of Zero" plot, but what's strange about that is Gate never seems to exhibit the same kind of power over Zero as Isoc. Also, the script is a bit confusing to me at times regarding the Investigators. Sometimes it makes it sound like they were brought back to life, other times it sounds like they were recruited from various tragic situations. I must not be reading carefully enough.
I've been casually replaying X6--mostly with X--and the script just confused me about something else. Late in the game, it says that Gate created High Max. I assumed that Isoc created High Max since he tells Gate earlier in the game that High Max could take care of everything, but Gate says he wants to continue with his experiment--presumably related to the Nightmare Phenomenon. If that's so, creating High Max almost seems like overkill.
Regardless, while frustrating in spots, I'm still enjoying X6 a good deal.
But time will tell whether or not X9 comes out and answers any questions. There are a lot of threads to pull from. When I think about it, considering Wily was working with alien tech at one point, they could even dig back into the Stardroids/Sunstar subplot from the Gameboy's Mega Man V. After all, X8 was partially about migrating to space.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 15, 2018 7:53:01 GMT -6
Haven't heard much from you guys as far as the actual collection release itself. Who got it and what do you think?
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