purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
May 2, 2024 18:16:45 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 7, 2016 7:33:06 GMT -6
Kaius, I understand your point completely. You would want the attacks to have an intuitive and organic feel to them, a motion/input to correspond to what happens on the screen. That does make sense, and can be great if it works out. I do think that motions can be like this just the same, though: picture Ryu throwing a fireball. It is down, then down forward and forward, right? In the actual attack, he crouches down a bit and then leans forward as he also moves his hands similarly to project the fireball. Guile's flash kick is like this too, or Zangief's spinning pile driver (spin the stick + punch to grab them). Clear, man I don't think we need a Raging Storm in this game lol. At hardest, something like Soul Steal with an improved input interpreter I think. @salamiswami, I don't think you should be worried, man, as backdash is almost guaranteed to be in the game. Me and most others I think, we've just assumed it will be there. Pretty much every backdash has been cancelable early in its frames/attacks more often than not cancelable into it as a basic evasive function, so it should be fine. I think I've seen you (or was it someone else) comment that about playing all your games on mute...that's crazy. At the very least, I think that someone playing seriously would prefer or outright need audio cues for help in timing certain tech. Muscle memory alone might be enough for Castlevania, though. I don't really play these games like that, but I agree that there should be consideration placed toward people that will. They have obviously acknowledged the speedrunning community, so I think we're on track for that. JoJo, so by combos, you actually meant direction inputs for special moves? Huh, cool then. I think this language had been confusing elsewhere, someone had said something like "button combos" where it seemed they had meant directional inputs + a button. Quintalian, no, I don't think 623/dragon punch motions belong in this kind of game. Moves that would appear to be "dragon punches" in animation can just use down + up, as they have in the past for example Richter's uppercut. However... Galamoth mentioning the kick and moves thereof gives me another idea. What if quite a few directional input moves were tied specifically to kick/boot weapons or unarmed attacks? A slide follow-up attack, rising kick, roundhouse, even a Bruce Lee "dragon kick"? I mostly prefer sword special attacks, but expanding on this could make kick attacks appealing even in late game. What G-moth had said about using inputs for fire/ice spells sounds great too! Hm, may need to eventually draft some bullet points for this.
|
|
purifyweirdshard
Administrator
Administrator
Calling from Heaven
Posts: 3,789
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
inherit
Administrator
210
0
1
May 2, 2024 18:16:45 GMT -6
3,660
purifyweirdshard
Calling from Heaven
3,789
Jun 29, 2015 7:24:38 GMT -6
June 2015
purifyweirdsoul
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2
|
Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 7, 2016 7:43:29 GMT -6
Oh, and related to Kaius' post and touching Astaroth's points, things like forward+forward attack for a Stinger-like move makes sense, but then you have accidental and overlapping commands come into play. With motions, you can use the same attack button for your attacks with that weapon. If it's a quarter circle instead of forward+forward, then there's much less risk of you just wanting to run and instead getting a special move. Even if there isn't a run specifically for forward+forward, you could have just hit forward an extra time accidentally to start moving or tapped it during a jump and the input was held. It's not as much of a big deal in Devil May Cry because these moves take a lock-on, so you're specifically in technically a "fighting stance" to do moves that hone in like that.
|
|
JoJo
Most Bizarre Adventurer
Master Alchemist
[TI1] I'm Fabulous!!
Posts: 693
inherit
Most Bizarre Adventurer
3
0
Mar 3, 2020 19:00:29 GMT -6
342
JoJo
[TI1] I'm Fabulous!!
693
May 28, 2015 8:45:14 GMT -6
May 2015
maximusz09
|
Post by JoJo on Apr 7, 2016 7:49:25 GMT -6
JoJo , so by combos, you actually meant direction inputs for special moves? Huh, cool then. I think this language had been confusing elsewhere, someone had said something like "button combos" where it seemed they had meant directional inputs + a button. Yep, and I'm really sorry if I cause misunderstanding regarding the combo system
|
|
inherit
205
0
1
Oct 16, 2019 18:36:27 GMT -6
1,635
crocodile
1,088
Jun 27, 2015 16:51:30 GMT -6
June 2015
crocodile
|
Post by crocodile on Apr 7, 2016 8:49:34 GMT -6
I don't mind "simple" motions as a way to expand the movepool and combat repertoire. I've certainly played games where having too many actions mapped on too few buttons was kind of stifling (my recent replay of MMX4 kind of made me feel this way). When I say "simple" motions though, I'm talking about stuff like Fireball or Dragon Punch motions. Stuff like Pretzel Motions or 360/720s or some of the Back and Forth and THEN X-Circle motions are obnoxious and I feel beyond the realm of most players to execute reliably. Some of Alucard's attacks in SOTN were just frustrating to execute with any consistency. I'd also hesitate to use them for traversal techniques (not that you can't do it, just be careful). Maybe it was because of finicky inputs but I found Richter's Super Jump and Air Dash in SOTN hard to pull of with consistency. It was a GODSEND when his Super Jump got mapped to a single button press in Portrait of Ruin. You're not using the word sluggish right. The number of animation strings isn't going to inherently change combat speed. Like you aren't stun locking enemies in a Castlevania game so you're going to have to be waiting/dodging anyway and since there is no 3rd dimension, you can only duck/jump/back away. You can't keep up a combat strong for a long period of time. Quick slashes actually are quite fast too - you have played some of the, say, Mega Man Zero games no? Holy crap. We are on the same side for once! Nice! Haha I figured you'd be against this but I actually agree with you some simple but unique button inputs for abilities to mix things up is a good thing just don't go overboard where it jumbles everything up too much. If us mostly agreeing with something makes you uncomfortable, I'm sure I can find something to disagree with you on In all serious, I have no issue with command inputs if they are a way to increase a character's offensive moveset in a way that doesn't doesn't require a significant addition of extra buttons. Or as a way to squeeze out some extra functionality from an important weapon. I however see no value in them as something that are fun to do just for the sake of doing them (which is something I believe I saw you express in the shoutbox). I'm fine with them from a utilitarian aspect. I will also stress (though we already agree on this) that I don't want obnoxious inputs. I don't want to see something like the input for Summon Spirit or Sword Brothers or whatever ever again. The half-circle in Dark Metamorphosis wasn't what I'd call hard to do but seems needlessly elaborate for a relatively simple and oft-used technique. Quarter Circle-Back, Quarter Circle-Forward (Hadoken), Shoryukren and Half-Circle motions are fine. I DON'T want to see anything more complex than that though. Finally, as I said before, traversal techniques should be keep simple - single button simple. Stuff like back dash, forward dash, air dash, super jump, etc. shouldn't require a command input like some of them did in SOTN. I'd also like to see uniformity in inputs across scenarios. As an example, if different named weapons each have a projectile/long-range attack you could use with them - they should ALL use the same (a hadoken?) motion. Makes it easy to learn and once a new player gets skilled at doing that sort of motion, they can use it with a wide array of weapons. So yeah, overall we agree. I'm just very specific in the ways I'm ok with this being implemented and the ways I'm not ok with this being implemented.
|
|
Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
Posts: 3,402
inherit
Ancient Legion
195
0
Aug 19, 2023 8:35:43 GMT -6
2,620
Galamoth
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
3,402
Jun 24, 2015 13:36:33 GMT -6
June 2015
galamoth
|
Post by Galamoth on Apr 7, 2016 11:18:08 GMT -6
Galamoth mentioning the kick and moves thereof gives me another idea. What if quite a few directional input moves were tied specifically to kick/boot weapons or unarmed attacks? A slide follow-up attack, rising kick, roundhouse, even a Bruce Lee "dragon kick"? I mostly prefer sword special attacks, but expanding on this could make kick attacks appealing even in late game. What G-moth had said about using inputs for fire/ice spells sounds great too! Hm, may need to eventually draft some bullet points for this. Oh yeah, sure! I'd like to see an extra attack that follows up from the sliding motion (probably as a gained ability later in the game), like Richter could do in SotN. Miriam is most likely going to get an aerial kick (quick descent) upon gaining the double-jump ability as well. ^ Directional-input special attacks being tied to boot weapons definitely sounds fun too, and it even ties into the "Bladed Boots" weapon idea I posted on the "Bloodstained Weapons" thread back in February. Now I'm starting to wonder if the Bloodstained development team already planned on giving Miriam a kicking attack...or someone more recently showed them my post, and they really liked the idea. Either way, it's cool that Miriam has a kick now. As for directional+button inputs for certain Spell combos (spells of two different elemental attributes), I'd of course love to see if they could do this for more than just Fire + Ice Spells (and perhaps Light + Dark). This thought is mainly inspired by the Glyph Unions in Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. Examples from OoE: "Evanescere" (Fire + Ice Glyph)"Universitas" (Light + Dark Glyph)I want to see more combinations like "Lightning + Water", "Wind + Earth", or "Fire + Dark" for a few examples. crocodile I'd like to have your opinion on these "Spell combos", too. (If I recall correctly, OoE is one of your favorite Igavanias too)
|
|
inherit
7
0
Jun 28, 2019 21:35:13 GMT -6
1,291
CastleDan
1,514
May 28, 2015 9:50:13 GMT -6
May 2015
castledan
|
Post by CastleDan on Apr 7, 2016 11:28:54 GMT -6
Holy crap. We are on the same side for once! Nice! Haha I figured you'd be against this but I actually agree with you some simple but unique button inputs for abilities to mix things up is a good thing just don't go overboard where it jumbles everything up too much. If us mostly agreeing with something makes you uncomfortable, I'm sure I can find something to disagree with you on In all serious, I have no issue with command inputs if they are a way to increase a character's offensive moveset in a way that doesn't doesn't require a significant addition of extra buttons. Or as a way to squeeze out some extra functionality from an important weapon. I however see no value in them as something that are fun to do just for the sake of doing them (which is something I believe I saw you express in the shoutbox). I'm fine with them from a utilitarian aspect. I will also stress (though we already agree on this) that I don't want obnoxious inputs. I don't want to see something like the input for Summon Spirit or Sword Brothers or whatever ever again. The half-circle in Dark Metamorphosis wasn't what I'd call hard to do but seems needlessly elaborate for a relatively simple and oft-used technique. Quarter Circle-Back, Quarter Circle-Forward (Hadoken), Shoryukren and Half-Circle motions are fine. I DON'T want to see anything more complex than that though. Finally, as I said before, traversal techniques should be keep simple - single button simple. Stuff like back dash, forward dash, air dash, super jump, etc. shouldn't require a command input like some of them did in SOTN. I'd also like to see uniformity in inputs across scenarios. As an example, if different named weapons each have a projectile/long-range attack you could use with them - they should ALL use the same (a hadoken?) motion. Makes it easy to learn and once a new player gets skilled at doing that sort of motion, they can use it with a wide array of weapons. So yeah, overall we agree. I'm just very specific in the ways I'm ok with this being implemented and the ways I'm not ok with this being implemented. Yeah I can understand that, I liked the half-circle movement for Dark Metamorphosis but that's just me! I thought that was a fun one to pull off and I always dug the red glow and blood splash giving you health. It's one of my favorites to do. I generally agree with what you said, don't do elaborate ones, try to keep the types limited so it doesn't confuse but utilize them so we have more options.
|
|
inherit
843
0
Sept 23, 2019 11:30:03 GMT -6
194
allooutrick
334
Oct 21, 2015 14:22:26 GMT -6
October 2015
allooutrick
|
Post by allooutrick on Apr 7, 2016 16:27:10 GMT -6
I voted for simple combos and other. I would like to see attacks and spells chain into others like forward and attack would cause Miriam to attack on a strictly horizontal plane and if you follow up with up and attack she could bring her weapon back to her and use it in an uppercut motion. Spells could chain together like pressing down and the spell button after shooting a fireball would have Miriam place her hand on the ground and summon pillars of fire if she has found that spell.
|
|
inherit
1132
0
Dec 29, 2016 17:47:50 GMT -6
15
abbadon
22
Feb 25, 2016 21:39:54 GMT -6
February 2016
abbadon
|
Post by abbadon on Apr 7, 2016 18:10:11 GMT -6
How about Double Quarter Circle F/B? And, an interesting thought: Mixing attacks and magic together!
QCF: Fireball A second QCF: Miraim dashes through the fireball, cloaking herself in flame to deal damage while moving foward.
|
|
BloodyTears92
Loyal Familiar
[TI1]It is time for darkness. It is a blood banquet.
Posts: 342
inherit
959
0
Jan 28, 2020 3:45:53 GMT -6
438
BloodyTears92
[TI1]It is time for darkness. It is a blood banquet.
342
Dec 7, 2015 22:34:49 GMT -6
December 2015
bloodytears92
|
Post by BloodyTears92 on Apr 7, 2016 20:47:52 GMT -6
I personally found a lot of the spells in SOTN to be pretty meh. Rolling out the inputs never felt right and if I id get them to trigger I was rewarded with a lackluster effect for the mana cost. Simply slashing people was so much more effective.
I'd be more interested in a return to something like the Item Crashes, or the special attacks from Dawn of Sorrow/Order of Ecclesia. Having some flashier attack animations could also add the flair without introducing a Lords of Shadow-esque combat system (which for the record I enjoy Spectacle Fighters a great deal, DMC and Bayonetta are favorite games of mine too) But I agree a combo system feels too far away from an IGAvania. 'Vania games were never really about the combat. As long as it was nice and responsive with unique weapon animations that was always enough.
|
|
inherit
205
0
1
Oct 16, 2019 18:36:27 GMT -6
1,635
crocodile
1,088
Jun 27, 2015 16:51:30 GMT -6
June 2015
crocodile
|
Post by crocodile on Apr 7, 2016 22:35:43 GMT -6
Galamoth mentioning the kick and moves thereof gives me another idea. What if quite a few directional input moves were tied specifically to kick/boot weapons or unarmed attacks? A slide follow-up attack, rising kick, roundhouse, even a Bruce Lee "dragon kick"? I mostly prefer sword special attacks, but expanding on this could make kick attacks appealing even in late game. What G-moth had said about using inputs for fire/ice spells sounds great too! Hm, may need to eventually draft some bullet points for this. Oh yeah, sure! I'd like to see an extra attack that follows up from the sliding motion (probably as a gained ability later in the game), like Richter could do in SotN. Miriam is most likely going to get an aerial kick (quick descent) upon gaining the double-jump ability as well. ^ Directional-input special attacks being tied to boot weapons definitely sounds fun too, and it even ties into the "Bladed Boots" weapon idea I posted on the "Bloodstained Weapons" thread back in February. Now I'm starting to wonder if the Bloodstained development team already planned on giving Miriam a kicking attack...or someone more recently showed them my post, and they really liked the idea. Either way, it's cool that Miriam has a kick now. As for directional+button inputs for certain Spell combos (spells of two different elemental attributes), I'd of course love to see if they could do this for more than just Fire + Ice Spells (and perhaps Light + Dark). This thought is mainly inspired by the Glyph Unions in Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. Examples from OoE: "Evanescere" (Fire + Ice Glyph)"Universitas" (Light + Dark Glyph)I want to see more combinations like "Lightning + Water", "Wind + Earth", or "Fire + Dark" for a few examples. crocodile I'd like to have your opinion on these "Spell combos", too. (If I recall correctly, OoE is one of your favorite Igavanias too) I mean we aren't entirely sure how the magic system in Bloodstained works so I dunno if something like Glyph unions would work. I liked them so I'd be fine with something like them back but that depends on if the magic system is more akin to Order of Ecclesia than it is to the Sorrow games. Or if it even were to include a magic system similar to that in Harmony of Dissonance.
|
|
Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
Posts: 3,402
inherit
Ancient Legion
195
0
Aug 19, 2023 8:35:43 GMT -6
2,620
Galamoth
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
3,402
Jun 24, 2015 13:36:33 GMT -6
June 2015
galamoth
|
Post by Galamoth on Apr 8, 2016 5:41:14 GMT -6
Oh yeah, sure! I'd like to see an extra attack that follows up from the sliding motion (probably as a gained ability later in the game), like Richter could do in SotN. Miriam is most likely going to get an aerial kick (quick descent) upon gaining the double-jump ability as well. ^ Directional-input special attacks being tied to boot weapons definitely sounds fun too, and it even ties into the "Bladed Boots" weapon idea I posted on the "Bloodstained Weapons" thread back in February. Now I'm starting to wonder if the Bloodstained development team already planned on giving Miriam a kicking attack...or someone more recently showed them my post, and they really liked the idea. Either way, it's cool that Miriam has a kick now. As for directional+button inputs for certain Spell combos (spells of two different elemental attributes), I'd of course love to see if they could do this for more than just Fire + Ice Spells (and perhaps Light + Dark). This thought is mainly inspired by the Glyph Unions in Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. Examples from OoE: "Evanescere" (Fire + Ice Glyph)"Universitas" (Light + Dark Glyph)I want to see more combinations like "Lightning + Water", "Wind + Earth", or "Fire + Dark" for a few examples. crocodile I'd like to have your opinion on these "Spell combos", too. (If I recall correctly, OoE is one of your favorite Igavanias too) I mean we aren't entirely sure how the magic system in Bloodstained works so I dunno if something like Glyph unions would work. I liked them so I'd be fine with something like them back but that depends on if the magic system is more akin to Order of Ecclesia than it is to the Sorrow games. Or if it even were to include a magic system similar to that in Harmony of Dissonance. Yes, you do raise a good point there. We indeed still don't know how the magic system in Bloodstained really works, yet.
|
|
inherit
1132
0
Dec 29, 2016 17:47:50 GMT -6
15
abbadon
22
Feb 25, 2016 21:39:54 GMT -6
February 2016
abbadon
|
Post by abbadon on Apr 9, 2016 7:45:45 GMT -6
I mean we aren't entirely sure how the magic system in Bloodstained works so I dunno if something like Glyph unions would work. I liked them so I'd be fine with something like them back but that depends on if the magic system is more akin to Order of Ecclesia than it is to the Sorrow games. Or if it even were to include a magic system similar to that in Harmony of Dissonance. Yes, you do raise a good point there. We indeed still don't know how the magic system in Bloodstained really works, yet. We should make a topic about Bloodstained`s magic system.
|
|
Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
Posts: 3,402
inherit
Ancient Legion
195
0
Aug 19, 2023 8:35:43 GMT -6
2,620
Galamoth
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
3,402
Jun 24, 2015 13:36:33 GMT -6
June 2015
galamoth
|
Post by Galamoth on Apr 9, 2016 9:43:53 GMT -6
Yes, you do raise a good point there. We indeed still don't know how the magic system in Bloodstained really works, yet. We should make a topic about Bloodstained`s magic system. I think that's already been done, though I could be mistaken. I'll take a look right now, and possibly edit this post when I'm done.
|
|
Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
Posts: 3,402
inherit
Ancient Legion
195
0
Aug 19, 2023 8:35:43 GMT -6
2,620
Galamoth
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
3,402
Jun 24, 2015 13:36:33 GMT -6
June 2015
galamoth
|
Post by Galamoth on Apr 9, 2016 10:38:08 GMT -6
Alright, I've decided to just post again, as opposed to editing, to help notify folks who bookmarked this thread (or participated). Here's the link to an earlier Magic-related discussion thread: Suggestions for magical powers and abilities!
|
|
inherit
1132
0
Dec 29, 2016 17:47:50 GMT -6
15
abbadon
22
Feb 25, 2016 21:39:54 GMT -6
February 2016
abbadon
|
Post by abbadon on Apr 9, 2016 22:18:25 GMT -6
Using some of my favorite fighting game (Blazblue)'s more unique inputs, how about...
Mash Attack Button Down, Down, Attack
|
|
inherit
925
0
Jun 6, 2018 19:05:04 GMT -6
94
GenericSoda
86
Dec 4, 2015 23:38:39 GMT -6
December 2015
genericsoda
|
Post by GenericSoda on Apr 16, 2016 21:06:14 GMT -6
I guess it depends on how many buttons we can expect to see. If we're getting a four button layout, I'd be fine with special attacks be bound to weapons and just be done by pressing two buttons. That would mean each weapon could have four unique abilities, which is pretty generous. The issue with having quarter-circles in an exploration game versus a fighter is that doing a half circle means you're going to turn around, which is incredibly off-putting to me. Fighters don't have this problem since A: you're always facing your opponent and B: auto-correct can help out.
|
|
Maker
Loyal Familiar
[TI1]
Posts: 109
inherit
300
0
Jun 2, 2018 15:27:49 GMT -6
80
Maker
[TI1]
109
Jul 11, 2015 12:33:30 GMT -6
July 2015
maker
|
Post by Maker on Apr 28, 2016 12:09:06 GMT -6
I voted for option 3 but wish to clarify that vote. As long as the options make sense in the context they're used. IE no back forward back down up attack for a strait forward fireball etc.
|
|
inherit
1457
0
Jun 23, 2016 8:47:27 GMT -6
1
newgeta
1
Jun 23, 2016 8:35:40 GMT -6
June 2016
newgeta
|
Post by newgeta on Jun 23, 2016 8:43:33 GMT -6
I really like having all magic spells on tap at all times, fighting game inputs make this work well. Maybe make the inputs a little forgiving for normal people who (unlike me) have not been playing street fighter for 20 years..
|
|
inherit
1542
0
Jul 10, 2016 5:53:40 GMT -6
1
thiagosantana
2
Jun 24, 2016 6:36:51 GMT -6
June 2016
thiagosantana
|
Post by thiagosantana on Jun 24, 2016 8:19:02 GMT -6
Special Attack/Spell will can be made with command sequences (like is in SOTN) or by just a single button (like is in Harmony of Despair)? I mean, will you add to the game some spells with commands like those necessary to do the spells 'Soul Steal' and ' DarkMetamorphosis' ?
Best regards, Thiago Santana
|
|
ChucklesTheJester
Ancient Legion
[TI0] How many nuns would a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck nuns?
Posts: 430
inherit
163
0
Jun 19, 2018 7:39:07 GMT -6
327
ChucklesTheJester
[TI0] How many nuns would a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck nuns?
430
Jun 15, 2015 4:38:11 GMT -6
June 2015
chucklesthejester
|
Post by ChucklesTheJester on Jun 24, 2016 8:53:44 GMT -6
Fighting game input combos? Sure why not. Actual button mashing combos? Absolutely not, this isn't Lords of Shadow.
|
|