purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 6, 2016 12:24:30 GMT -6
Weapon and spell special attacks and their inputs have come up again, we have not taken feedback in this specific area yet in a poll. In Ask IGA segments and elsewhere, I have seen that IGA seems to have not decided (as of that time) to include or rule out specific types of special inputs, so this could be helpful. It seems to be felt by him and many others that the commands for some actions in Symphony of the Night were too hard, and I would say that's a fair thing to say, but not as much due to the motions themselves - the input interpreter of the game was quite finnicky. This is often noted by record-holding speed runners in for example Richter runs where the dagger up > qcf dash move is repeated for mobility. Normally, this would be no problem for a fighting game player or pro speed runners, but the way the game reads the inputs renders the action more difficult than its command would appear. If this were addressed, I think that most would be fine with at least quarter circles for sure (i.e. Alucard Sword teleport), and even more complicated spells or attacks requiring half circles wouldn't be as bad. What do you think?
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 6, 2016 12:30:55 GMT -6
The two I don't minds are where I'm at!
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Post by samuraifoochs on Apr 6, 2016 13:25:27 GMT -6
Same. Also I'm a little surprised I was the only one who thought animation strings would be a good idea. I think single attacks, in 2016, make combat feel really sluggish in comparison. It WORKS but it doesn't feel smooth to just slash, wait, slash, wait, slash, wait in my opinion.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 6, 2016 13:41:05 GMT -6
I think the button inputs will be in there regardless, it was one of the features highlighted in blue, though it could be implying button inputs that make Miriam do special actions like a gravity jump type thing.. down up X or something and not necessarily weapons but i think it'd be cool for both!
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Post by Kaius on Apr 6, 2016 14:28:42 GMT -6
Other.
Let me explain. I want combos for sure, simple attacks would be... boring, isn't it ?
Combos like Dark Metamorphis were awesome but pretty hard to make which could be frustrating when you succeed to do it only 1/2 time. Forward / Backward / Quart paddle is definitly retro but, is it logic ? I mean, I wouldn't like to see these combos just because they have their place into video games legendary pantheon or because it's retro. Basically, if Miriam is suppose to make a stinger attack, I'd more like to have to make a forward + attack move, maybe ->, ->, X for instance.
As another exemple, Devil May Cry 3 has pretty logical combos according to their effect. Push an ennemy to the air is : UP + Attack; while throw it to the ground while in air can be a fast : Down + Attack.
Think about Super Smash Bros too ! Combos are super logical and the game has very well builded mechanics. To stay simple, I don't want Bloodstained to be a Tekken where you have to make UP, ->, ->, Down, X, O, X, O, <-, ->, UP, Down to make the badass combo like it was a cheat code. With pressure in the middle of a fight, it's nearly impossible to make the 10-hit combo unless you're sure your ennemy is defenseless.
I think my opinion is clear. It's not that I'm against forward / backward / quart paddle combos, it's just that I prefer they stay in a certain logic if they are ever used. I trust IGA's choices anyway.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Apr 6, 2016 14:57:28 GMT -6
kind of a synopsis of what ive been talking about, sotn had issues not because the fighting game inputs were a bad idea, but because too many things used the same system and conflicted, you had special attacks which were qcf/qcb/hcf/hcb/bf, you had subweapons which were up and attack, these 2 systems didnt clash with each other and were fine. where the problems came in was the magic system used inputs that either were too similar to each other so you could accidentally use the wrong spell or trigger a weapon special, or they used up and you could very easily use a subweapon instead of attacking
now, sotn magic has largely moved to an equip system similar to weapons in later games, either replacing subweapons as your up attack in por or getting dedicated buttons like dos/ooe, this is much less of an issue. if bloodstained uses either of those you could have the sotn special attack setup and except for the occasional special attack being used when you move from crouch and have to attack right after (similar to accidentally using subweapons when you attack while climbing stairs in classicvania), plus you would only need to deal with at most 4 combinations being active at any one time (assuming dual wield ooe style magic and dual wield weapons and all of them have special inputs) instead of the 6-9 that are always active in sotn (5 spells and subweapon, plus sword brother and 2 weapons)
as for weapon combo thoughts ill try to get as much of my thoughts here so i dont keep repeating myself like i have in the update thread, but anyway more to come later
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Post by abbadon on Apr 6, 2016 15:07:57 GMT -6
Possible attack inputs.
QCF QCB HCF HCB Back-Foward Down-Upward Front-Backward Up-Downward Dragon Punch Command
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Apr 6, 2016 15:21:37 GMT -6
if magic is tied to up attack instead of a button press i would entirely avoid the upper half of the d pad for attacks so there isnt any overlap between the 2 systems (the sotn superjump is fine though since its a jump and not subject to any other input string)
dragon punch? ah gotcha v
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Post by abbadon on Apr 6, 2016 15:27:34 GMT -6
Dragon Punch= Forward-Down-Diagonal Down/Foward. Or... ➡️⬇️↘️.
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Post by Clear on Apr 6, 2016 15:42:56 GMT -6
I'll throw in another attack input, the pretzel motion db - f - df - d - db - b - df + attack
or diagonally down-back, half circle back, diagonally down-forward + attack.
Assigned to the most powerful spell in the game. Great to use, hard to master. ... or maybe too complicated.....
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Post by crocodile on Apr 6, 2016 18:16:59 GMT -6
I don't mind "simple" motions as a way to expand the movepool and combat repertoire. I've certainly played games where having too many actions mapped on too few buttons was kind of stifling (my recent replay of MMX4 kind of made me feel this way). When I say "simple" motions though, I'm talking about stuff like Fireball or Dragon Punch motions. Stuff like Pretzel Motions or 360/720s or some of the Back and Forth and THEN X-Circle motions are obnoxious and I feel beyond the realm of most players to execute reliably. Some of Alucard's attacks in SOTN were just frustrating to execute with any consistency. I'd also hesitate to use them for traversal techniques (not that you can't do it, just be careful). Maybe it was because of finicky inputs but I found Richter's Super Jump and Air Dash in SOTN hard to pull of with consistency. It was a GODSEND when his Super Jump got mapped to a single button press in Portrait of Ruin. Same. Also I'm a little surprised I was the only one who thought animation strings would be a good idea. I think single attacks, in 2016, make combat feel really sluggish in comparison. It WORKS but it doesn't feel smooth to just slash, wait, slash, wait, slash, wait in my opinion. You're not using the word sluggish right. The number of animation strings isn't going to inherently change combat speed. Like you aren't stun locking enemies in a Castlevania game so you're going to have to be waiting/dodging anyway and since there is no 3rd dimension, you can only duck/jump/back away. You can't keep up a combat strong for a long period of time. Quick slashes actually are quite fast too - you have played some of the, say, Mega Man Zero games no?
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 6, 2016 19:17:51 GMT -6
I don't mind "simple" motions as a way to expand the movepool and combat repertoire. I've certainly played games where having too many actions mapped on too few buttons was kind of stifling (my recent replay of MMX4 kind of made me feel this way). When I say "simple" motions though, I'm talking about stuff like Fireball or Dragon Punch motions. Stuff like Pretzel Motions or 360/720s or some of the Back and Forth and THEN X-Circle motions are obnoxious and I feel beyond the realm of most players to execute reliably. Some of Alucard's attacks in SOTN were just frustrating to execute with any consistency. I'd also hesitate to use them for traversal techniques (not that you can't do it, just be careful). Maybe it was because of finicky inputs but I found Richter's Super Jump and Air Dash in SOTN hard to pull of with consistency. It was a GODSEND when his Super Jump got mapped to a single button press in Portrait of Ruin. Same. Also I'm a little surprised I was the only one who thought animation strings would be a good idea. I think single attacks, in 2016, make combat feel really sluggish in comparison. It WORKS but it doesn't feel smooth to just slash, wait, slash, wait, slash, wait in my opinion. You're not using the word sluggish right. The number of animation strings isn't going to inherently change combat speed. Like you aren't stun locking enemies in a Castlevania game so you're going to have to be waiting/dodging anyway and since there is no 3rd dimension, you can only duck/jump/back away. You can't keep up a combat strong for a long period of time. Quick slashes actually are quite fast too - you have played some of the, say, Mega Man Zero games no? Holy crap. We are on the same side for once! Nice! Haha I figured you'd be against this but I actually agree with you some simple but unique button inputs for abilities to mix things up is a good thing just don't go overboard where it jumbles everything up too much.
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Post by JoJo on Apr 6, 2016 20:49:45 GMT -6
CastleDanThis is what I wanted. This is the thing that I want to see in Bloodstained
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Post by thrashinuva on Apr 6, 2016 22:03:41 GMT -6
Specifically you can take me through ←↓→x, but once you go ←→↓←x then I'm not liking it anymore.
Honestly for full compatibility with a d-pad it's best if it's only things like ←→x.
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 6, 2016 22:30:59 GMT -6
CastleDanThis is what I wanted. This is the thing that I want to see in Bloodstained Well there's a difference between combos and weapon specials/spells using button input commands. One is like Mirror of fate ( which sounded like what you wanted) the other is like symphony of the night
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Post by JoJo on Apr 6, 2016 22:45:37 GMT -6
CastleDan This is what I wanted. This is the thing that I want to see in Bloodstained Well there's a difference between combos and weapon specials/spells using button input commands. One is like Mirror of fate ( which sounded like what you wanted) the other is like symphony of the night Well, I'm sorry if I cause a misunderstanding, I never really like the system in Mirror of Fate
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 6, 2016 22:59:20 GMT -6
One concession I've been thinking about y'all is the option of an equip'able ring or relic if the game does have complicated motions that would make them simpler to execute, mapped to direction + button on the controller. The average gamepad now has quite a few buttons, so it should be possible. If nothing else, I imagine the right stick won't be used for much else in Bloodstained, or perhaps platform specific options like the touchpads, keyboard shortcuts, etc.
The drawback to this would be that you're using up a ring or equip slot otherwise could be used for a different buff. For players that don't necessarily need the assistance, there could still be a reason to use this accessory because it could essentially make spells/attacks that are normally executable only on the ground/standing at neutral now possible in the air.
To illustrate what I mean in SotN terms, imagine if you took off your...Moonstone or whatever you currently have, equipped this spellbook type thing instead, and now you can perform a Soul Steal during a jump with up + R1. It could both make life easier for some and give otherwise new combat/evasive options to others.
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Post by Quintalian on Apr 7, 2016 4:16:30 GMT -6
My friend and I discussed this when we tried our hand at designing a Metroidvania type game. Despite being better than me at fighting games, she disliked the idea of having fighting game style command inputs in it, while I thought they would work OK. Her main concern was that less skilled players would find them frustrating.
I'm not awesome at fighting games, but I could do the spells in SOTN just fine, at least 90% of the time. As long as there's no inputs more complex than that, I don't mind seeing them again. But I have one request: no Dragon Punch commands. I really, really hate the Dragon Punch command. When I try to do it, it only works about half the time, and sometimes it works when I'm trying to do a different command.
Also, Purify, I get where you're coming from on the "command simplifier equipment" idea, but really, if there's a command that's complex enough that someone would give up an equipment slot to make it easier to perform, then the command is too complex. Give me an easier move and my preferred equipment.
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 7, 2016 6:14:27 GMT -6
I chose "Other", because I personally don't mind if there's a wide variety of special attacks (weapon techniques, Spells, etc.) that each require very different button-inputs. In other words; I don't mind if there's a healthy combination of single-button input, simple directional+button, and more complicated commands divided among all of the special attacks in the game. I think there are bound to be certain attacks/spells (obviously besides the normal weapon attack) that can be mapped to a single button press, but at the same time I'd love for there to be special weapon directional-input attacks (including for being "unarmed", like Miriam's kicking attacks), as well as more complicated commands for certain Spells that Miriam can cast. Hopefully there will be a much greater variety of Spells in Bloodstained, all for each input type. (I'd even love to see secret button-inputs for combining certain kinds of Spells, e.g. casting Fire & Ice spells together)
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Post by CastleDan on Apr 7, 2016 7:23:48 GMT -6
Well I'm happy how this turned out. Seems like more people are fine with them than I thought. Hopefully they include them then!
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