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Post by RichterB on Mar 30, 2016 17:00:13 GMT -6
There has been some debate and concern about Bloodstained being 2.5D out there. I have recently been playing the 2014 Strider reboot (for PS3, PS4, Windows, XBox 360, & XBox One), and the deeper I get into it, the more impressive it is, visually and design-wise. This game has actually set my expectations for Bloodstained even higher now. The Strider franchise, a contemporary of Castlevania, has typically been known as an stylish, arcade-style hack-n-slash series, but its often overlooked NES installment, based on its manga source material, was actually designed more like a Metroidvania in the style of Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. This 2014 reboot takes cues from that NES game, by having locked doors; item, health, and skill upgrades to find; as well as backtracking/interconnected areas. The visuals are really lush while capturing the distinct style of series, with very little to any copy-and-paste. So, when you get to the top of one building, you'll find a nice dining room, or if you go below the building, you'll find a subway with moving trains. While there are some cel-shaded effects, it's all 2.5D (3D) CG; even so, it feels so handcrafted in its details. The level of details in the background, foreground, and everywhere is stuff you'd expect from the best days of sprite-based games. What's also interesting is how the camera moves around during different scenes to frame the character and world more dynamically to generate extra atmosphere. (The only issues of caution are, objectively, there are moments where the interactivity of pieces of the level design become a little confusing because of how everything is colored with a sense of consistency; and subjectively, I would have preferred the globe-trotting of the NES game to be included, rather than just one massive, layered world that's more akin to Dracula's castle. Still, I hope IGA and Inti-Creates have taken a look at this game in action. It actually looks more seamless in motion, but here are some screens: www.wovow.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Strider-wovow.org-01.jpgwww.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/669163-strider-windows-screenshot-kazakh-city.jpgwww.entdepot.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Strider-360-PC-PS3-PS4-Xbox-One-Console-Launch-Announcement-Screenshot-1.jpgpixelatedgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Snapshot_20140225_215855.jpgvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/strider/images/6/6b/StrHD_kazakhcity_skyline.png/revision/latest?cb=20141201084512www.gamesidestory.com/wp-content/gallery/jeu_strider/strider22.jpg4.bp.blogspot.com/-vZT-2PH8xz0/VRFg2qQhICI/AAAAAAAAJlg/zx15n8COD-c/s1600/Strider_2014-3.jpgfarm3.staticflickr.com/2903/14501154481_5acf635148_o.jpgHere is the size of just one area: images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/433774300764493641/FD731C1F35AD9A9A3D855AAB3F4656E5147232B2/Here is the world map: www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/669171-strider-windows-screenshot-kazakh-city-map.jpg |
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Post by crocodile on Mar 30, 2016 20:19:05 GMT -6
Not going to lie, I tried the demo of this game because I heard it was so good. I dunno, the controls weren't as snappy and precise I would have liked. It didn't have the speed or responsive-ness I've come to expect from the best 2D games. Not saying its an inherent issue of the 2.5D-ness but I didn't find this game as enthralling as others did. Maybe I need to spend more time with it, I dunno.
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Post by Ghalion on Mar 30, 2016 20:48:01 GMT -6
I assume you made sure vsync was off after determining the controls werent responsive enough?
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RichterB
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Post by RichterB on Mar 30, 2016 23:03:56 GMT -6
Not going to lie, I tried the demo of this game because I heard it was so good. I dunno, the controls weren't as snappy and precise I would have liked. It didn't have the speed or responsive-ness I've come to expect from the best 2D games. Not saying its an inherent issue of the 2.5D-ness but I didn't find this game as enthralling as others did. Maybe I need to spend more time with it, I dunno. The Strider franchise has always had a "floaty" feel, so if this is your introduction to the series, it will take some getting used to and/or might not be your cup of tea. From my experience, this feels very much in line with the rest of the series. Also, I didn't feel this game hit its stride--no pun intended--until about halfway through the second area. It was during the subway section that I realized this was a really well designed game. But to your point specifically, I've actually had very little issue with the controls, and have found them quite good. (The only thing that is not perfect may be that some of the vertical and diagonal slashes don't always respond right--but that might be my skill level rather than the controls. However, I can tell the controls work well because I have been able to do some very advanced platforming involving wall transfers from various heights (with obstacles) very smoothly, and the human-type boss battles have a Street Fighter-like consistency where I feel in full control of my jump and slash counters. |
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 30, 2016 23:21:53 GMT -6
I didn't find the game all that special but I'm not into strider games. What I did find special was the animations which remind me very much of 2d games and I hope bloodstained takes influence from. I also dug the smoke effects and dust effects when you jump... I'm hoping for a similar cell shaded look in bloodstained
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Post by samuraifoochs on Mar 31, 2016 0:23:58 GMT -6
Gonna be honest, I don't want to seem overly dismissive, but this doesn't reassure me. I REALLY hope Bloodstained doesn't make copious use of 2.5D, because ugh. If you're gonna do 3D, do 3D. If you're gonna do 2D, do 2D.
I'm fine with occasional use of it, but I want a 2D game with 3D models for the most part, personally. =/
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Mar 31, 2016 7:14:24 GMT -6
I like Strider. I'm actually more of a fan of the NES game and Strider 2 than the arcade/Genesis one, which don't get me wrong is a great game. I really enjoyed playing him back when Marvel vs Capcom 1 was new...
The new Strider is good. I have some reservations on calling it 2.5D personally, though I guess it really is. To me, this and ReArmed are 3D games with a fixed camera whereas Strider 2 or GG Xrd would be full 2.5. This is why I feel that way:
Strider 2: Is actual sprites on 3D backgrounds with some 3D enemies and background scrolling.
Xrd: Manipulated graphically to take on the full appearance of 2D.
Bloodstained itself has started to lean this way now with the shader chocie (yay!)
Anyway...I think I played a couple of hours of the new Strider and thought it was good, but it didn't draw me in like a 2D game would unfortunately. I plan to come back to it eventually and it's cool how it's very Metroid. It kind of bothers me too how some have called it a Metroidvania when it has so very little to do with anything 'vania. Same goes for every other game called that these days - there is no vania, just Metroid and skill tree/combo systems that wouldn't be in a Castlevania game. The thought that this kind of thing WAS Metroidvania spilled over I think into folks asking IGA for those things in Bloodstained, which are not characteristics of his games. His games are item/power collection exploration RPG platformers with traditional level ups. I think it's great that he has redefined his own thing as an Igavania.
So, really...I don't know if Strider from Double Helix really has enough in common with Bloodstained for it to be a good example of what to do, perhaps for a few ideas. It's closer than a lot of things, though this or a Shadow Complex style feel is not necessarily what I'm looking for. DXC, while full 3D, still felt like I was playing a 2D game with how the platforming handled, stiff as it may have been.
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Post by LordKaiser on Mar 31, 2016 9:32:58 GMT -6
I've aways wanted Bloodstained to look 2D but using a 3D engine just like Guilty Gear Xrd but with bloodstained original art style instead of anime but I don't see it succeeding despite the new shader on Miriam getting closer to that goal.
I don't care or want a 3D look at all on it just in case.
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Post by CastleDan on Mar 31, 2016 10:41:07 GMT -6
Some of you are voicing the concerns I have. That they might dabble much more in 3d because of the 2.5d set up and in doing that it starts pulling more to the 3d side and kills the 2d feel. It's a VALID concern that I hope the team at Artplay and Inti are very cautious about. It's the fine balance of keeping it feeling 2d while using some of the benefits of 3d, but not tipping the scale.
I think Strider like I said before does have some good qualities and that stems from the animation work. If there's one thing it does very well is, it mimics 2d animation so well. That's where the team should draw inspiration from.
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RichterB
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Post by RichterB on Mar 31, 2016 12:36:59 GMT -6
Maybe I got so much into the broader details that I wasn't clear. Here are the reasons the Strider reboot reassures me, and what I think Bloodstained can take away from it (even if, as recent months have shown, it seems that Bloodstained is very well on its way along the right path): So, even when you use 3D in 2D... *You can still create a variety of environments with distinct and cohesive character to them, much in the way sprites can. And because you do not have to pixel-draw every element, it possibly opens the door to having even greater diversity within a limited time frame/budget of development. *You can create fluid character and enemy animation, maintain an expressively distinct 2D art style, and have accurate hit boxes, along with additional effects like shaded smoke that give things a handcrafted sprite feel. *You can create large, organic environments that feed into one another well spatially, and don't just feel like blocky, pasted hallways/boxes. *You can create natural, interesting platforming obstacles that create consequences to area traversal without things feeling cheap or unfair. *While it does not need to be overdone by any means, you can create some interesting camera tricks at times to enhance a particular scene/area. I think that Strider uses it much more than Bloodstained ever should given the nature of the game, but DXC had that river segment that showed how interesting things can be done with 3D in 2D, and this should at least be exploited in the backgrounds. That said, sometimes Strider does zoom in too far out, so I definitely want a more fixed camera for Bloodstained. So, in a nutshell... I like Strider. I'm actually more of a fan of the NES game and Strider 2 than the arcade/Genesis one, which don't get me wrong is a great game. I really enjoyed playing him back when Marvel vs Capcom 1 was new... I am also a fan of the NES Strider over the original, and grew fond of the character's style and world further from Strider 2 and Marvel vs. Capcom 1 more so than the original arcade/Genesis version. That's why this game is so impressive to me. It actually pulls from the whole of the Strider tradition/lore, while still defining itself in its own way. The fact that it strongly captures the 2D history of its game series using 3D models is all the more impressive. That's what I'm hoping for from Bloodstained in terms of how it respects and pulls from its Castlevania origins--both "Classicvania" and "Metroidvania"--while carving out its own unique place, and maintaining its distinct art direction throughout regardless of the 3D technology used. |
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