How Linear Should Things Be?

I would like to see monster spawns randomized so it is a little different play by play.

SOTN had a terrible difficulty curve. It gets progressively easier as the game progresses, spikes when you reach the inverted castle and then quickly crashes in difficulty again. Anyway, with regards to challenge vs linearity - when a game is non-linear, an issue that often arises is that since a developer doesn't know which order a player may tackle specific challenges, they set them all at the same difficulty. This can sometimes be an issue since it can put a hard cap on the limit of challenge for a section of the game. Like if there are four dungeons you can tackle in any order, after you've beaten 3 of them, the fourth one is likely to be super easy. I would hope that if Bloodstained hops for a less linear adventure, that they do some level/enemy scaling. Like if you can go in any of three directions, after you've beaten one section, the others become slightly harder to factor in you are stronger than you would be if you chose that section first.


None of those things have to deal with the linearity or non-linearity of the game. What the OP is talking about linear vs non-linear, they are talking about the order you can enter regions/fight bosses, how well you can sequence break, etc. In SOTN, there were some regions of the castle and bosses you could approach in different orders and you didn't even need to explore the entire castle or fight all the bosses to beat the game.

??

I think you've misunderstood me. What I was saying is that what you were talking about (level design, avoiding cramped & cluttered terrain, having secret areas to explore, etc.) is not the same thing the OP was talking about (ability to tackle some sections and bosses of the castle in different orders, the ability to sequence break, etc.). For example you can have a completely non-liner game with no secret areas to find. The only thing I was critiquing in my post was the difficulty curve of SOTN, not its linearity/non-linearity.

I agree with... like... people who aren't agreeing with each other here.. lol. I agree that SoTN's non-linearity was really special, and I would go ape to discover Bloodstained struck the same balance...

However I also agree that SoTn's difficulty curve was awful, and the open-ended nature of SoTN is likely a large contributing factor of that problem. How do you balance the game so that the player can explore a large number of areas in a selectable order without them being all topsy turvy in the challenge department? Well there are ways to do that, but they all generally involve limiting the player's growth somehow, which is something players probably don't want. A different way may be by making certain enemies 'time' sensitive.. for example. you can do the crypt or the library at the same time, but doing one would make the other seem too easy because you level and gear up after doing one. So you can make it so after doing one, the other gets a new enemy spawn type that's more powerful than the rest. Or the environment changes (add lava with fireballs leaping out and whatnot is a popular example)

Or you may make it so they are all too hard originally (for a balanced player I mean), and feature encounters you are likely expected to flat out avoid altogether until you power up enough via doing one of said dungeons.

In any case. I totally want bloodstained to have a SoTN-style of open-ended exploration! But I want the devs to be very careful about making it so that a player wont find the game much too easy after clearing an area or two.

edit:
Incidentally, what do you guys think about randomizing the items you get from the end of an area? I don't mean regular loot but like.. you're at a point in the game where you are forced to explore area 1, 2 or 3 next because everything else is already explored, or requires something like  mist form, bat form, a skull key... something so you can proceed...What do you guys think if they randomize where you get these things like bat form.. like they would come from a boss or the end of an area, but which boss and which area can change... obviously it would be balanced so you wont get a super late game exploration tool in an early dungeon, and it would be made so you don't end up 'stuck' because every item you need to explore further is trapped behind a locked area or whatever. But otherwise, what do you guys think about those things being shuffled around each playthru?

I'm not a fan of linearity in general, and an Igavania game is by nature non-linear in just how it works. I think something like SotN would be about right, maybe slightly less...

Re: difficulty and doing things in an order which makes other things too easy etc, I think that the paths available to players should have noticeable differences in the strength of the enemies. Only someone very comfortable in their ability and looking to challenge themseles (and later, speed runners) would head into these places earlier. Even in a game like Dragon Quest, yeah, you can cross that bridge at low level if you want, but you're probably not going to be able to handle anything past the slimes and drakees that you're used to...

Maybe you beat a gold golem though and make a lot of cash to buy a sword made of actual metal, though. In Bloodstained terms, maybe there's a mid-game recipe component you can get early which you know about from a previous playthrough. Might have to dodge a lot of enemies, maybe even use some obscure means of extending jump height slightly that while not obvious was an intended inclusion in the game.

That said, there should be points where more opens up by way of relics or whatever their equivalent is, crystal abilities or movement options, etc. The way SotN did all this was just about right, and you'll know you're missing something by the map or game percentage as before.

If there is a 'second castle' styled area thats only accessible after a certain point (usually after all major movement abilities are acquired) the simplest way to do difficulty is as you get further from that point it gets more difficult, as for branching paths, i do hope they are in and the way iga has been refining his difficulty curve works, you base a harder to get to area off the area you gain the relic needed to access that area (so a doublejump accessed area will start at the difficulty of the area you get the doublejump in and go up from there)

Now there is one thing i hope they can find a way to foster and thats ways to access areas early through very precise platforming, sequence breaking, and leaving in a few fun things akin to wolfjumps and momentum jumps to cover larger distances than normal if you have good timing, things you arent likely to try or find on your first few playthroughs but could be discoverable as the game goes on and you start challenging yourself with different criteria, the little things that give a game personality beyond whats presented and keep people playing for 20+ years

The more little details, the more discoveries, the more.. OH CRAP.. I can do this? moments the better the game will be imo. I don't need everything explained to me, I want to discover, find, explore, and be blown away.

I don't share your hate for the inverted castle but I do agree that the lack of holding your hand in SOTN was one of my favorite things. Expect more from the gamers, i wish more modern developers followed suit. I missed the 90's way of doing things it made you think about what you need to do, and how to discover what you can do. It wasn't always... the game having to tell you what's next or how to use a certain magic ability, etc..etc.

20 times? Wow. You seem to be a bigger an than myself.
As for the topic, I think they should stick to SoTN style. The castle design is one of the reason that game has such a huge replayability.