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Post by triam505 on Jan 21, 2016 17:26:58 GMT -6
Hello everybody! Seeing as how Bloodstained is set to have IGA's biggest castle yet, having a good, functional map would be vitally important for players like me, who are easily lost. That's why I would like to start this topic where we can share ideas and suggestions about what would make navigating the Bloodstained castle more enjoyable. And by "map" I mean the in-game map you see when you pause to check where you should go next. For a discussion about the design and layout of the castle itself you can go here. First of all, I think it's safe to assume that the Castlevania grid-style map is a classic for a reason and we are all at least familiar with it and can use it as a jumping off point for discussions and comparisons. Personally, it's one of my favorite map systems, although I would like to see a few additions (more on that at the end of the post). Please share any ideas and suggestions you might have. Both positive experiences from games you've enjoyed and negatives from games which could have "done it better" would be valuable information to consider. If you haven't thought about this before, here are some questions to get you started: What do you think makes a map useful to you? If you're lost and don't know where to go, what would be the best way to show you how to progress? If you feel that a map is too cluttered with unnecessary information, what could be left out? Do you want to know how much of the map you have uncovered (e.g. 78%)? What about percentage of items or secrets? Also, it's important to consider that Bloodstained is going to be played on a variety of platforms, each with their own quirks and limitations. PC players will be using a mouse and keyboard; XBOX and PS users will be viewing the game from a greater distance on a TV screen; Wii U and Vita could make use of their touchscreens. Consider the console you're going to be playing the game on and share your ideas about how to make the experience better for you and everyone else using that platform. Here's a small sample of map screens from similar games for inspiration: Castlevania: Symphony of the NightDust: An Elysian TailAxiom VergeOri and the Blind ForestRogue LegacyGuacamelee And here are my thoughts on the matter:I think that one of the things that makes a map "good" is when it not only shows where you have been, but also where you could go. That's why I like the Castlevania grid-style maps. They make it perfectly clear where there are doors to other rooms, and when you have reached a dead end (secret rooms excluded). The only problem I have with that style is that it doesn't tell me what's inside a room. I'm not talking about marking rooms with save spots and teleports, but more along the lines of locked doors, inaccessible areas and general places of interest. An example would be; coming to a door that's only accessible by jumping high or flying, so I give up and go somewhere else. After a while I wonder why I haven't opened that door and I go back to try and open it, only to end up wasting my time because I still can't get to it. Another example would be one of the quests in Portrait of Ruin. I remember finding a room with a piano, recognizing that it was an important room and thinking that I should remember where it is. But when I finally got the quest to go there I had forgotten where that room was and I had a lot of trouble finding it again. Some games take care of situations like that by automatically marking things they think you should remember on your map, but that isn't usually isn't enough and it takes away some of the fun from finding the secrets for yourself. Some games let you place markers on the map, but unless there are a good variety of markers, it's easy to forget what exactly they mean. And of course, even if certain games allow it, and you have a keyboard, stopping to write a text as a reminder alongside the marker isn't that fun. An ideal solution for me would be if the game let you take pictures of the room you were in and mark where that picture was taken on the map. That way, if you're looking at the map and see you've marked something, but don't remember what it was, you could just look at the picture instead of going all the way there. Or, if you're looking for something specific, you could browse through your pictures and locate it that way. Or you could take pictures of interesting scenery or enemies and maybe share them with your friends through the asynchronous multiplayer function. I know most consoles and platforms already have those features, but it would be nice if they were built into the game. And assuming that an actual camera, like the one Shanoa had in Order of Ecclesia, wouldn't be out of place in Bloodstained and IGA's story, maybe Miriam (or another playable character) could find one and use it for more than just taking pictures. Maybe revealing secrets, solving puzzles etc. Of course one of the problems with this idea is that the pictures would require a lot of storage space. Even if such a feature was implemented the pictures might have to be at lower quality or limited in number. Even so, I would be happy to have something like 20 or even 10 picture slots that I can use through the game. Anyway, that's my ideal for a map in a game like Bloodstained. A classic Castlevania style map with the added function to take pictures of anything interesting you find. What is yours?
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 21, 2016 20:53:38 GMT -6
I like the grid style map, its simple clean and gives you an idea of your path without giving you everything on a platter, i would like to have an ingame way to mark my map with notes so i can put things like "high ledge" "locked door" "item", stuff that along with a journal keeping track of story events would be a great combination for people who dont get to play for a while or are backtracking and can go "oh, i dont have something to reach that yet, i can continue on" at a glance
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Cale
Great Old One
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 21:17:27 GMT -6
I like grid based maps, where it doesn't show detail. It makes finding secrets more exciting. I think Astaroth has a good idea, being able to make notes on the map would be immensely helpful. Besides that I like colour codes for certain rooms. (Save room, teleport room) I wouldn't want the map to tell us where to go, like where bosses are, or where the next objective is, mostly because metroidvanias are about exploring. I am unsure about naming zones. Might be cool, but might reveal too much info. and as for % map revealed. . . I am divided again. I like to know if I am missing something, but maybe only in new game +? Knowing how much castle I have uncovered before finishing the game gives me an idea of how long I have left. Since this is Iga's biggest castle, I want to be surprised.
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Post by UserShadow7989 on Jan 21, 2016 22:03:59 GMT -6
Also putting my support behind the grid-based mapping, for reasons stated here. I'm liking the idea noted above of a completion percentage only being displayed when you have a cleared save and/or New Game+ unlocked.
Being able to add notes to a given square in the grid would be pretty handy, and was the first thing I thought of suggesting when I saw the topic title, so also putting my support in for that. Maybe a given room can be selected in the map for additional details, such as which enemies are there, and remaining chests in that room (not counting those hidden) for ease of backtracking along similar lines?
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Great Old One
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Post by Cale on Jan 21, 2016 22:09:00 GMT -6
I like the enemies idea, if it's a huge castle it will be hard to remember where to hunt for drops. Having the area say what enemies you have already encountered would be cool.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 2:56:58 GMT -6
Apart from the already suggested features, I think a map (and possibly secret) uncovering percentage should be hidden until you get a near-end item(s) that reveal(s) it. That way plot twists and length couldn't be anticipated, but you'd still be able to track your progress at the stage where you're finally able to access all areas.
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Post by Goobsausage on Jan 22, 2016 3:04:27 GMT -6
Apart from the already suggested features, I think a map (and possibly secret) uncovering percentage should be hidden until you get a near-end item(s) that reveal(s) it. That way plot twists and length couldn't be anticipated, but you'd still be able to track your progress at the stage where you're finally able to access all areas. I like this idea, but I can also imagine myself getting the item, finding out that I discovered 90% of the game map, and being let down because I realize I'm almost done with exploring. "Aww man, it's over already?". That might not be an issue depending on how the game unfolds. Still, I'm all for Bloodstained finding a way to hide plot twists and game length.
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Post by allooutrick on Jan 22, 2016 14:52:48 GMT -6
the grid style map feels like a limitation rather than a feature. Many rooms in igavanias seem to be set at certain lengths to accommodate to the map because if the map says a single room is 3 squares long and only 1 square high then the room can not realistically be 2 and 3/5s of a square. It won't fit the structure of the map. Star Ocean 3 had an excellent system for a map. Each area, except towns and inhabited buildings, had a map that was absolutely blank. As you moved around then whatever was within 15 feet of you was filled in whether it was the walls of the area, rocks, or other obstacles. If Bloodstained can combine that map system with its metroidvania gameplay then we can see rooms of much more varying sizes and shapes as well as a map with areas drawn in that are easily identifiable so confusion about what's where will be minimized. To end on a happy note I have enjoyed exploring every hole and roof of these games regardless of my opinions.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 22, 2016 15:37:29 GMT -6
the grid style map feels like a limitation rather than a feature. Many rooms in igavanias seem to be set at certain lengths to accommodate to the map because if the map says a single room is 3 squares long and only 1 square high then the room can not realistically be 2 and 3/5s of a square. It won't fit the structure of the map. Star Ocean 3 had an excellent system for a map. Each area, except towns and inhabited buildings, had a map that was absolutely blank. As you moved around then whatever was within 15 feet of you was filled in whether it was the walls of the area, rocks, or other obstacles. If Bloodstained can combine that map system with its metroidvania gameplay then we can see rooms of much more varying sizes and shapes as well as a map with areas drawn in that are easily identifiable so confusion about what's where will be minimized. To end on a happy note I have enjoyed exploring every hole and roof of these games regardless of my opinions. I actually thought of a system like that (and apparently strider does that too) where your char has a bubble around the map cursor and the map fills in based on your exact position instead of a grid, its a neat idea but imagine having 99.9% of the map done and now youre searching through this massive map for the places where theres a tiny gap cause there was a platforming section or a long ceiling (this could be made less difficult by having area% for each section but then you are outright telling the player that theyre done which might color your willingness to keep exploring or give away secrets too easily) If you look at the grid in sotn you can find areas where you have to move to a specific spot on the edge of a gridpoint to trigger a map square (i can think of at least 2 areas, ones a couple places in chapel along the ledges, and theres a place in inverted where you have to swim up along a slope in wolf form for one square and superjump into a corner to get the other square), its not perfect 1 screen/1 grid square there, the handhelds however do use 1/1 almost exclusively, but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area perhaps the grid could be kept to make spotting holes much easier but make a grid square equal half a screen instead of a full screen with a general outline of the boundaries of each area? One thing though that was really cool about ooe was the map for wygol village, that rough charcoal sketch look was really cool and i think itd be interesting to see again applied to a full area as a concept art, i worry itd make the maps ingame a little too busy and itd hinder note placement
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Post by allooutrick on Jan 23, 2016 17:51:12 GMT -6
I actually thought of a system like that (and apparently strider does that too) where your char has a bubble around the map cursor and the map fills in based on your exact position instead of a grid, its a neat idea but imagine having 99.9% of the map done and now youre searching through this massive map for the places where theres a tiny gap cause there was a platforming section or a long ceiling (this could be made less difficult by having area% for each section but then you are outright telling the player that theyre done which might color your willingness to keep exploring or give away secrets too easily) If you look at the grid in sotn you can find areas where you have to move to a specific spot on the edge of a gridpoint to trigger a map square (i can think of at least 2 areas, ones a couple places in chapel along the ledges, and theres a place in inverted where you have to swim up along a slope in wolf form for one square and superjump into a corner to get the other square), its not perfect 1 screen/1 grid square there, the handhelds however do use 1/1 almost exclusively, but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area perhaps the grid could be kept to make spotting holes much easier but make a grid square equal half a screen instead of a full screen with a general outline of the boundaries of each area? One thing though that was really cool about ooe was the map for wygol village, that rough charcoal sketch look was really cool and i think itd be interesting to see again applied to a full area as a concept art, i worry itd make the maps ingame a little too busy and itd hinder note placement Those are some good points. Referencing Star Ocean 3 again, there was an area late into the game that covered a massive amount of space and I wanted to complete the map entirely to see what reward it would give me. I got to roughly 98 percent after putting an hour or two in of mostly running around and avoiding every battle I could. The frustration was definitely there. I also never knew that about SotN. Also your idea about smaller grid squares makes good sense.
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Post by spideryfingers on Jan 24, 2016 5:19:01 GMT -6
The grid-style map suits me just fine because of the reasons what Cale mentioned in his post.
One thing I've often pondered over about a grid-style map is the idea of a lethal, instant-death enemy being visible on it that is roaming the castle. This would be similar to the scene in the film Alien where Dallas is down the shaft system with the creature catching him up and is seen as a bleeping orb on the screen. This could add a streak of tension to the adventure.
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Astaroth
Fifty Storms
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 24, 2016 10:56:59 GMT -6
i dont think it should be instadeath, but having a powerful enemy roaming a mazelike area of the map you have to pass through and are severely underlevelled atm to fight would be an interesting diversion from badassing your way through to the next area, then later in the game needing to confront this massively powerful thing that youd remember because your first instinct as a gamer is that theyd never put something you 'cant' beat easily outside a boss room, and now youre hunting it which gives a sense of growth that goes beyond just numbers, and when you get close to beating it it flees to its lair deep in the maze to lick its wounds, and once you chase and confront it it gets desperate and becomes more aggressive since now its cornered and fighting for its life >P
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jim
Master of the Candle Skeleton
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Post by jim on Jan 24, 2016 22:08:06 GMT -6
So here's what I have so farWhat do you think makes a map useful to you? Show where you are, where you've been, and places you haven't yet been. Potentially things you've found and things you haven'tIf you're lost and don't know where to go, what would be the best way to show you how to progress? I like grid based maps, where it doesn't show detail. It makes finding secrets more exciting. I think Astaroth has a good idea, being able to make notes on the map would be immensely helpful. Besides that I like colour codes for certain rooms. (Save room, teleport room) I wouldn't want the map to tell us where to go, like where bosses are, or where the next objective is, mostly because metroidvanias are about exploring. I agree with Cale in that I'm not sure there is a decent way to do this without spoiling some of the exploration aspects of the game. I mean traditionally in Igavanias you are not given a destination of any kind.If you feel that a map is too cluttered with unnecessary information, what could be left out? Not sure on this one....Do you want to know how much of the map you have uncovered (e.g. 78%)? What about percentage of items or secrets? and as for % map revealed. . . I am divided again. I like to know if I am missing something, but maybe only in new game +? Knowing how much castle I have uncovered before finishing the game gives me an idea of how long I have left. Since this is Iga's biggest castle, I want to be surprised. Also putting my support behind the grid-based mapping, for reasons stated here. I'm liking the idea noted above of a completion percentage only being displayed when you have a cleared save and/or New Game+ unlocked. I would agree that the stat should be there but only visible after clearing the game at least once on any difficulty. I also think that it might be fun to have a separate percentage just for secret locations. Kind of like the >100% map coverage for SotN.Ok this next one is kind of a fairly long one....I think that one of the things that makes a map "good" is when it not only shows where you have been, but also where you could go. That's why I like the Castlevania grid-style maps. They make it perfectly clear where there are doors to other rooms, and when you have reached a dead end (secret rooms excluded). The only problem I have with that style is that it doesn't tell me what's inside a room. I'm not talking about marking rooms with save spots and teleports, but more along the lines of locked doors, inaccessible areas and general places of interest. An example would be; coming to a door that's only accessible by jumping high or flying, so I give up and go somewhere else. After a while I wonder why I haven't opened that door and I go back to try and open it, only to end up wasting my time because I still can't get to it. Another example would be one of the quests in Portrait of Ruin. I remember finding a room with a piano, recognizing that it was an important room and thinking that I should remember where it is. But when I finally got the quest to go there I had forgotten where that room was and I had a lot of trouble finding it again. Some games take care of situations like that by automatically marking things they think you should remember on your map, but that isn't usually isn't enough and it takes away some of the fun from finding the secrets for yourself. Some games let you place markers on the map, but unless there are a good variety of markers, it's easy to forget what exactly they mean. And of course, even if certain games allow it, and you have a keyboard, stopping to write a text as a reminder alongside the marker isn't that fun. An ideal solution for me would be if the game let you take pictures of the room you were in and mark where that picture was taken on the map. That way, if you're looking at the map and see you've marked something, but don't remember what it was, you could just look at the picture instead of going all the way there. Or, if you're looking for something specific, you could browse through your pictures and locate it that way. Or you could take pictures of interesting scenery or enemies and maybe share them with your friends through the asynchronous multiplayer function. I know most consoles and platforms already have those features, but it would be nice if they were built into the game. And assuming that an actual camera, like the one Shanoa had in Order of Ecclesia, wouldn't be out of place in Bloodstained and IGA's story, maybe Miriam (or another playable character) could find one and use it for more than just taking pictures. Maybe revealing secrets, solving puzzles etc. Of course one of the problems with this idea is that the pictures would require a lot of storage space. Even if such a feature was implemented the pictures might have to be at lower quality or limited in number. Even so, I would be happy to have something like 20 or even 10 picture slots that I can use through the game. I like the grid style map, its simple clean and gives you an idea of your path without giving you everything on a platter, i would like to have an ingame way to mark my map with notes so i can put things like "high ledge" "locked door" "item", stuff that along with a journal keeping track of story events would be a great combination for people who dont get to play for a while or are backtracking and can go "oh, i dont have something to reach that yet, i can continue on" at a glance I actually like the "camera" idea. Maybe you could make it Miriam "taking a mental picture" that's basically a screen shot that is really blurry/de-rezed with platform and wall edges highlighted (to make referencing details a little easier). As an added feature you could make the pictures time based in the higher difficulties. I.E. Miriam's memory fading/corrupting over time, which could be an interesting game mechanic. Also, you could put a limit on the total number of "pictures" taken at any one time as Miriam Personally the one issue that I ALWAYS had with the map was spotting the doors (discovered or not) on the map. So maybe lighting up doors you haven't been through with a blinking marker of some sort might be handy for navigation.
Now I would also agree that the idea of "auto marking" items of interest makes things too simple. Though maybe that can be handled by having the game only do that on an "easy" or "beginner" difficulty setting and not do it on harder difficulties. Now color coding rooms like shop, teleport, and/or save rooms I think would be acceptable. And SotN, CoM, AoS, HoD, and others have set a precedent for this.
I do like the idea of having color coded markers you can drop around the map that maybe you can attach notes to, if you so wish... And as far as the ability to enter notes on consoles vs. PCs, anyone who has ever dealt with this knows that in the case of console instead of writing soliloquies on what the point represents like you might on a PC you get very apt at coming up with meaning full 1-3 word (or more) descriptions that are just meaning full enough that you can remember what they represent but minimize how much "typing" you have to do. So as far as that aspect of things go I don't think that the console vs. PC argument has much impact. Maybe a given room can be selected in the map for additional details, such as which enemies are there, and remaining chests in that room (not counting those hidden) for ease of backtracking along similar lines? I like the enemies idea, if it's a huge castle it will be hard to remember where to hunt for drops. Having the area say what enemies you have already encountered would be cool. Now this I think would be a GREAT idea. In fact, since most Igavanias have pretty much always had an in game bestiary of some sort I think it would be great to link these two things together. Make it so from the map you can select a room and see what enemies are there, if the room is completely explored (minus hidden elements), any notes you've recorded, markers you've dropped, or images you've recorded, maybe even what the drops that are obtainable. Then from the bestiary there's a "population" option that then displays the map and highlights rooms that you've seen that enemy in.the grid style map feels like a limitation rather than a feature. Many rooms in igavanias seem to be set at certain lengths to accommodate to the map because if the map says a single room is 3 squares long and only 1 square high then the room can not realistically be 2 and 3/5s of a square. It won't fit the structure of the map. Star Ocean 3 had an excellent system for a map. Each area, except towns and inhabited buildings, had a map that was absolutely blank. As you moved around then whatever was within 15 feet of you was filled in whether it was the walls of the area, rocks, or other obstacles. If Bloodstained can combine that map system with its metroidvania gameplay then we can see rooms of much more varying sizes and shapes as well as a map with areas drawn in that are easily identifiable so confusion about what's where will be minimized. To end on a happy note I have enjoyed exploring every hole and roof of these games regardless of my opinions. I actually thought of a system like that (and apparently strider does that too) where your char has a bubble around the map cursor and the map fills in based on your exact position instead of a grid, its a neat idea but imagine having 99.9% of the map done and now youre searching through this massive map for the places where theres a tiny gap cause there was a platforming section or a long ceiling (this could be made less difficult by having area% for each section but then you are outright telling the player that theyre done which might color your willingness to keep exploring or give away secrets too easily) If you look at the grid in sotn you can find areas where you have to move to a specific spot on the edge of a gridpoint to trigger a map square (i can think of at least 2 areas, ones a couple places in chapel along the ledges, and theres a place in inverted where you have to swim up along a slope in wolf form for one square and superjump into a corner to get the other square), its not perfect 1 screen/1 grid square there, the handhelds however do use 1/1 almost exclusively, but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area perhaps the grid could be kept to make spotting holes much easier but make a grid square equal half a screen instead of a full screen with a general outline of the boundaries of each area? Not really sure how I feel about this one... I mean I think that the grid map is most definitely the way to go on this one, but I don't think that it would really be that big of an issue in terms of being a limit to the castle design. I mean, personally, I think the only reason that it has been any kind of a limit up to this point is that most of the more recent Igavania's have been on the DS which has a fairly limited screen size and resolution. This meant that the total size of the map had an initial inherent hard size limit which in turn meant that for any map that was going to be a single screen map with no pan or zoom had an inherent hard limit to its square footage. i.e. you only have so many grid blocks available. This means that the castle design, if it is going to be of ANY significant size or complexity, is going to be very dense with the shape of the rooms dictated by proximity to other rooms and minimizing unused space on the map. I don't see that being a concern here. We are already talking about making a HUGE map, so I would imagine that making a map that pans and zooms is kind of a given at this point. If that's the case then there is no geometrical limit to the design and layout of the rooms. Just look at SotN vs. HoD or AoS in terms of map density.
SotN:
Vs. HoD and AoS
See how SotN has HUGE holes in the map and whole sections where there is some long path way around an area or off to a remote area? That's what gave the castle the feeling of being this MASSIVE place. In reality the HoD and AoS maps actually have more square footage used, but feel less massive because most of the rooms are just side to side hallways that snake up and down or side to side, because there's nowhere else for them to go on the map! If those same maps had been allowed to "stretch out" and be more straight paths than snakes the maps would have felt much bigger. Now this is not accounting for the issue of reused rooms, layouts, enemies, etc. That certainly doesn't help. But even there, I think that most of those issues came from limitations that Konami put on the game in terms of dev. time, money, and man power to do more things. Also, the system they were being released for brought in its own inherent limitations on things.
In short, I do NOT see the grid style map being a limitation for Bloodstained.
Now I could see:but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area That I think could be a good technique to make the map less "cookie cutter". Make the map still a grid, near/semi 1-to-1 screen-to-point style map, but if the walls in an area only allow you access the left half or lower half or upper half of the block, the lines shown on the map would reflect that.
Last thing:One thing though that was really cool about ooe was the map for wygol village, that rough charcoal sketch look was really cool and i think itd be interesting to see again applied to a full area as a concept art, i worry itd make the maps ingame a little too busy and itd hinder note placement Maybe what you do is say that the design of the castle was inspired by either the design of another castle that Gebel had been to or seen the plans for once before, or that the design of the castle was in part based on something that the alchemists were working on. From there you might have Miriam find torn up or burnt pieces of said "original" blueprint of the castle as you explore that show you some areas of the castle and not necessarily in the order you "should" explore them in.... In fact I would say that you should NOT discover them in the order that you "should" explore them in. But when you open your map screen those areas are shown as a crude sketch or penciled technical drawing (as the story dictates) that retain the ripped/torn/burn look that you'd expect but as you explore the castle those blocks get "overwritten" or overlaid with the "normal" in-game map notation.
Maybe what you get is something that looks like this:
That's full of marks, tares, stains, burns, and maybe even spots that are marked up with notes or crossed off, with each "fragment" of the original map you get. But as you explore the map squares in the image would get overwritten by or overlaid with the normal SotN-esque style map.
Now obviously the map I displayed is a top down style map not a side view map, but I think it illustrates the point that I'm trying to make.
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Cale
Great Old One
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Post by Cale on Jan 25, 2016 13:30:05 GMT -6
So here's what I have so farWhat do you think makes a map useful to you? Show where you are, where you've been, and places you haven't yet been. Potentially things you've found and things you haven'tIf you're lost and don't know where to go, what would be the best way to show you how to progress? I like grid based maps, where it doesn't show detail. It makes finding secrets more exciting. I think Astaroth has a good idea, being able to make notes on the map would be immensely helpful. Besides that I like colour codes for certain rooms. (Save room, teleport room) I wouldn't want the map to tell us where to go, like where bosses are, or where the next objective is, mostly because metroidvanias are about exploring. I agree with Cale in that I'm not sure there is a decent way to do this without spoiling some of the exploration aspects of the game. I mean traditionally in Igavanias you are not given a destination of any kind.If you feel that a map is too cluttered with unnecessary information, what could be left out? Not sure on this one....Do you want to know how much of the map you have uncovered (e.g. 78%)? What about percentage of items or secrets? and as for % map revealed. . . I am divided again. I like to know if I am missing something, but maybe only in new game +? Knowing how much castle I have uncovered before finishing the game gives me an idea of how long I have left. Since this is Iga's biggest castle, I want to be surprised. Also putting my support behind the grid-based mapping, for reasons stated here. I'm liking the idea noted above of a completion percentage only being displayed when you have a cleared save and/or New Game+ unlocked. I would agree that the stat should be there but only visible after clearing the game at least once on any difficulty. I also think that it might be fun to have a separate percentage just for secret locations. Kind of like the >100% map coverage for SotN.Ok this next one is kind of a fairly long one....I think that one of the things that makes a map "good" is when it not only shows where you have been, but also where you could go. That's why I like the Castlevania grid-style maps. They make it perfectly clear where there are doors to other rooms, and when you have reached a dead end (secret rooms excluded). The only problem I have with that style is that it doesn't tell me what's inside a room. I'm not talking about marking rooms with save spots and teleports, but more along the lines of locked doors, inaccessible areas and general places of interest. An example would be; coming to a door that's only accessible by jumping high or flying, so I give up and go somewhere else. After a while I wonder why I haven't opened that door and I go back to try and open it, only to end up wasting my time because I still can't get to it. Another example would be one of the quests in Portrait of Ruin. I remember finding a room with a piano, recognizing that it was an important room and thinking that I should remember where it is. But when I finally got the quest to go there I had forgotten where that room was and I had a lot of trouble finding it again. Some games take care of situations like that by automatically marking things they think you should remember on your map, but that isn't usually isn't enough and it takes away some of the fun from finding the secrets for yourself. Some games let you place markers on the map, but unless there are a good variety of markers, it's easy to forget what exactly they mean. And of course, even if certain games allow it, and you have a keyboard, stopping to write a text as a reminder alongside the marker isn't that fun. An ideal solution for me would be if the game let you take pictures of the room you were in and mark where that picture was taken on the map. That way, if you're looking at the map and see you've marked something, but don't remember what it was, you could just look at the picture instead of going all the way there. Or, if you're looking for something specific, you could browse through your pictures and locate it that way. Or you could take pictures of interesting scenery or enemies and maybe share them with your friends through the asynchronous multiplayer function. I know most consoles and platforms already have those features, but it would be nice if they were built into the game. And assuming that an actual camera, like the one Shanoa had in Order of Ecclesia, wouldn't be out of place in Bloodstained and IGA's story, maybe Miriam (or another playable character) could find one and use it for more than just taking pictures. Maybe revealing secrets, solving puzzles etc. Of course one of the problems with this idea is that the pictures would require a lot of storage space. Even if such a feature was implemented the pictures might have to be at lower quality or limited in number. Even so, I would be happy to have something like 20 or even 10 picture slots that I can use through the game. I like the grid style map, its simple clean and gives you an idea of your path without giving you everything on a platter, i would like to have an ingame way to mark my map with notes so i can put things like "high ledge" "locked door" "item", stuff that along with a journal keeping track of story events would be a great combination for people who dont get to play for a while or are backtracking and can go "oh, i dont have something to reach that yet, i can continue on" at a glance I actually like the "camera" idea. Maybe you could make it Miriam "taking a mental picture" that's basically a screen shot that is really blurry/de-rezed with platform and wall edges highlighted (to make referencing details a little easier). As an added feature you could make the pictures time based in the higher difficulties. I.E. Miriam's memory fading/corrupting over time, which could be an interesting game mechanic. Also, you could put a limit on the total number of "pictures" taken at any one time as Miriam Personally the one issue that I ALWAYS had with the map was spotting the doors (discovered or not) on the map. So maybe lighting up doors you haven't been through with a blinking marker of some sort might be handy for navigation.
Now I would also agree that the idea of "auto marking" items of interest makes things too simple. Though maybe that can be handled by having the game only do that on an "easy" or "beginner" difficulty setting and not do it on harder difficulties. Now color coding rooms like shop, teleport, and/or save rooms I think would be acceptable. And SotN, CoM, AoS, HoD, and others have set a precedent for this.
I do like the idea of having color coded markers you can drop around the map that maybe you can attach notes to, if you so wish... And as far as the ability to enter notes on consoles vs. PCs, anyone who has ever dealt with this knows that in the case of console instead of writing soliloquies on what the point represents like you might on a PC you get very apt at coming up with meaning full 1-3 word (or more) descriptions that are just meaning full enough that you can remember what they represent but minimize how much "typing" you have to do. So as far as that aspect of things go I don't think that the console vs. PC argument has much impact. Maybe a given room can be selected in the map for additional details, such as which enemies are there, and remaining chests in that room (not counting those hidden) for ease of backtracking along similar lines? I like the enemies idea, if it's a huge castle it will be hard to remember where to hunt for drops. Having the area say what enemies you have already encountered would be cool. Now this I think would be a GREAT idea. In fact, since most Igavanias have pretty much always had an in game bestiary of some sort I think it would be great to link these two things together. Make it so from the map you can select a room and see what enemies are there, if the room is completely explored (minus hidden elements), any notes you've recorded, markers you've dropped, or images you've recorded, maybe even what the drops that are obtainable. Then from the bestiary there's a "population" option that then displays the map and highlights rooms that you've seen that enemy in.I actually thought of a system like that (and apparently strider does that too) where your char has a bubble around the map cursor and the map fills in based on your exact position instead of a grid, its a neat idea but imagine having 99.9% of the map done and now youre searching through this massive map for the places where theres a tiny gap cause there was a platforming section or a long ceiling (this could be made less difficult by having area% for each section but then you are outright telling the player that theyre done which might color your willingness to keep exploring or give away secrets too easily) If you look at the grid in sotn you can find areas where you have to move to a specific spot on the edge of a gridpoint to trigger a map square (i can think of at least 2 areas, ones a couple places in chapel along the ledges, and theres a place in inverted where you have to swim up along a slope in wolf form for one square and superjump into a corner to get the other square), its not perfect 1 screen/1 grid square there, the handhelds however do use 1/1 almost exclusively, but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area perhaps the grid could be kept to make spotting holes much easier but make a grid square equal half a screen instead of a full screen with a general outline of the boundaries of each area? Not really sure how I feel about this one... I mean I think that the grid map is most definitely the way to go on this one, but I don't think that it would really be that big of an issue in terms of being a limit to the castle design. I mean, personally, I think the only reason that it has been any kind of a limit up to this point is that most of the more recent Igavania's have been on the DS which has a fairly limited screen size and resolution. This meant that the total size of the map had an initial inherent hard size limit which in turn meant that for any map that was going to be a single screen map with no pan or zoom had an inherent hard limit to its square footage. i.e. you only have so many grid blocks available. This means that the castle design, if it is going to be of ANY significant size or complexity, is going to be very dense with the shape of the rooms dictated by proximity to other rooms and minimizing unused space on the map. I don't see that being a concern here. We are already talking about making a HUGE map, so I would imagine that making a map that pans and zooms is kind of a given at this point. If that's the case then there is no geometrical limit to the design and layout of the rooms. Just look at SotN vs. HoD or AoS in terms of map density.
SotN:
Vs. HoD and AoS
See how SotN has HUGE holes in the map and whole sections where there is some long path way around an area or off to a remote area? That's what gave the castle the feeling of being this MASSIVE place. In reality the HoD and AoS maps actually have more square footage used, but feel less massive because most of the rooms are just side to side hallways that snake up and down or side to side, because there's nowhere else for them to go on the map! If those same maps had been allowed to "stretch out" and be more straight paths than snakes the maps would have felt much bigger. Now this is not accounting for the issue of reused rooms, layouts, enemies, etc. That certainly doesn't help. But even there, I think that most of those issues came from limitations that Konami put on the game in terms of dev. time, money, and man power to do more things. Also, the system they were being released for brought in its own inherent limitations on things.
In short, I do NOT see the grid style map being a limitation for Bloodstained.
Now I could see:but then if you look at loi or cod the map reveals based on a grid but the edges of the map follow the contours of the area That I think could be a good technique to make the map less "cookie cutter". Make the map still a grid, near/semi 1-to-1 screen-to-point style map, but if the walls in an area only allow you access the left half or lower half or upper half of the block, the lines shown on the map would reflect that.
Last thing:One thing though that was really cool about ooe was the map for wygol village, that rough charcoal sketch look was really cool and i think itd be interesting to see again applied to a full area as a concept art, i worry itd make the maps ingame a little too busy and itd hinder note placement Maybe what you do is say that the design of the castle was inspired by either the design of another castle that Gebel had been to or seen the plans for once before, or that the design of the castle was in part based on something that the alchemists were working on. From there you might have Miriam find torn up or burnt pieces of said "original" blueprint of the castle as you explore that show you some areas of the castle and not necessarily in the order you "should" explore them in.... In fact I would say that you should NOT discover them in the order that you "should" explore them in. But when you open your map screen those areas are shown as a crude sketch or penciled technical drawing (as the story dictates) that retain the ripped/torn/burn look that you'd expect but as you explore the castle those blocks get "overwritten" or overlaid with the "normal" in-game map notation.
Maybe what you get is something that looks like this:
That's full of marks, tares, stains, burns, and maybe even spots that are marked up with notes or crossed off, with each "fragment" of the original map you get. But as you explore the map squares in the image would get overwritten by or overlaid with the normal SotN-esque style map.
Now obviously the map I displayed is a top down style map not a side view map, but I think it illustrates the point that I'm trying to make. Amazing! All of this! ^^^^
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Post by crocodile on Jan 25, 2016 15:03:51 GMT -6
I'm in favor of keeping things simple. I don't know if the grid map is the place I want/need to see a lot of experimentation. I will say I'm a big fan of the ability to mark the map (maybe with pins) to highlight important rooms you want to remember to come back to. Detailed notes seems a bit much though and as does whatever that memory photo system that was being described earlier was. Also, while highlighting each room you've already visited to able to see what's inside it seems cool, that seems a bit impractical. The bestiary solution that was discussed seems sweet though. Like how in the Pokedex you can select a Pokemon and see where on the map they can be found, allowing the bestiary in this game to do the same make a ton of sense and would be helpful to mining drops or whatnot.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 25, 2016 16:52:02 GMT -6
Yes, I'm mostly happy with the way maps have been in previous Igavania games. If it's a blue/white Super Metroid map with different color blocks for save points and teleport rooms, then well...I'm good lol. I do imagine it will be spruced up quite a bit, but I don't think it'd be necessary to really include a host of features. Markers, sure.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jan 27, 2016 13:40:34 GMT -6
i think monster locations should be part of the bestiary instead of the map, it could be part of miriams 'journal' and fill itself in as she encounters them, like she first gets the picture and name for seeing one, and the area she saw it in (subsequent areas get added to the locations part as you find them in the game), once she kills it she gets the description, lvl and stats, common/rare drop ???s until the enemy drops something, and possibly resistances/weaknesses (i would like to see a journal where they fill in based on attacking with that element to encourage experimentation, but that may be very cumbersome to program weakness, neutral, and resist show codes into each individual element/status as opposed to killed=1, show resist/weak along with the other data like past igavanias)
it would give players acknowledgement of the fact that they explored and found this knowledge, and the game is just keeping track of it in a way thats easy for you to review, instead of giving it all to you upfront, and if a notes system is added you could always put down a note for a room like "3 Burgons" or "Batcave" when you find a good room to farm for an item
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