Should Shields return? (Submitted)

A) I don't have a problem with shields. I have a problem with shields playing like they did in SOTN. They were just an inferior option (and less fun in my and I feel many others opinions) and matched poorly with the conventions of the genre. I offered one (of probably many) "solutions" but you shot it down. Why? I don't see value in bringing back a weapon class that would inherently trail behind the others unless you are willing to make balance/design tweaks. As for "adding more slots" I'm not sure I follow. You need a free hand to use a shield and Miriam will only have two hands (two attack slots) at max. So a shield will take out an offensive option. The only way I can see to overcome this is with a "block" button perhaps but then that wouldn't be using a shield and it would have to be omni-directional (like the "shields" in Smash Bros) to be effective in a Metroidvania game but that would clearly not be anything like the shields you are arguing for.

B) I mean if you prefer slower paced battles or what not that's totally fine. There's no need to invoke hyperbole by invoking QTEs though. It's not about "having options" its about making mechanics and weapons that work in harmony with the natural design philosophies of the genre. Again, please point me to the game that is paced similarly to any of the Igavanias, Metroids, etc. that use shields in a manner similar to SOTN and have them be a broadly useful (i.e. they are useful against a wide range of enemies and situations) and successful tool. The fact that they were mostly dropped from future Igavanias and that you'll have trouble finding such a game (I'd imagine) should be telling.


A) The number of slots in OoE correspond to the actual attack buttons you had at your disposal - you were never going to have infinite button slots open so there's no reason to have infinite spell slots and assigning them to button presses made them much easier and quicker to use that input commands. Having two "sword" type commands, as an example, assigned was actually useful as it let you use them in rapid succession. You had exactly enough slots and buttons to fight your way through the game sans issue. It was efficient.

B) I feel people have been VERY clear on why they aren't enthused on shields - they were worthless and adding a worthless class of weapons/items to your game is inefficient and bad game design. It's the same concept as writing, making films or any creative endeavor. Everything should have a place and use. If you can't justify the inclusion of a mechanics or weapons (as opposed to a deliberate joke item), if something isn't pulling its weight, it probably should be cut. This applies to game design as well. Now if you actually want to change shields so that they are useful within the confines of what Metroidvania game design naturally pushes you towards then I'm down for that. I made one suggestion though I'm sure there are other avenues one could explore. However Cale seems to be pushing back against that and shooting me down? If y'all want shields to play out like the did in SOTN then I just can't agree they have any place in this game here.

I am sorry if you feel I am shooting anything down. I personally feel that I am adding more options instead of shooting down ideas. I am simply playing devil's advocate. I wholly agree shield attacks are cool.

I am also arguing that it would be fun for some of us to have a completely defensive option. As for the "adding more slots", Diablo II was my original example, I will go into further detail. You have a left and right hand slot, but you have a second left and right hand slot. By pushing the 'w' key you would switch between the two sets of items. So another example would be Darksouls series. You would equip two left hand and two right hand items, you could switch between these at any time by pressing left or right on the direction pad. In this way you can have more slots for weapons/shields/rods/wands/guns without having to go into a menu to switch items. You could theoretically have dozens of pre set weapons to toggle through. You wouldn't have to give up ANY offensive options, you'd just end up adding defensive options IF you wanted. You could just as well have 4, 6, 8, 10 swords equipped at once if having 1 shield would be too much of a burden.

And as for omni directional shields? Yes that IS what I am arguing for. . . You could block above you, below you, in front of you, heck if you held the button holding the shield and used thumbtacks for directional blocking you could have 360° blocking.

As for a precedence to shields in metroidvania games I feel SotN is the perfect example. Just because a portion of the people playing didn't like/ or use shields doesn't mean that they weren't useful. It depends on the person using the tool, not the tool itself. Computers don't make mistakes, the people programming them do.

Time for me to let out my own thoughts as the sole voter of "no" in the poll above.

I'm personally against shields because I find them useless in normal play. Let me go over how I saw them in both SOTN and OOE. And no, I'm not covering shield dashing because that is something that I consider to be outside of normal play

Outside of using the SOTN shield rod spell to break the game on it's back, was there any practical use for shields? In gameplay not stats. In SOTN, shields had the sole use of blocking weak projectiles, being useless against both melee attacks and ranged attacks with large hitboxes (like a beam), projectiles that could be stopped much more quickly using the sword and some decent timing.

In OOE, shields had one extremely gimmicky use, the Goliath boss fig-oh wait you have axe glyph to get rid of the ceiling debris whoops even the basic sword glyph works if you are confident in your timing/button mashing. But in all seriousness shields had almost no reason to exist in OOE, basic weapon glyphs hit overhead and spells were almost broken (looking at you Nitesco).

First a quote from CastleDan


Now onto why I actually placed my vote, to put it simply, clutter, that's what shields end up as in my playthroughs. As CastleDan brought up in the shoutbox not too long ago. Yes while the game doesn't force you to use them they still clutter up the inventory space and this isn't smash bros were a character is being cloned added last minute into the game, this is a game that barely has it's engine finalized.

I should probably specify something though, I am against shields as an inventory item because I find them to be a waste of space. If there was a specialized blocking button then I would be fine with the idea.

i think a good way to solve the issue for some people is to give the shields an offensive capability as well like I believe crocodile said.

Maybe the shields have an attack function as well as a defensive block. That way for fans who like shields and the defensive nature of them that's there, and for those that find them as a useless item that takes up an offensive space can now have it as an offensive option as well.

Sounds great, I wouldn't have to use the attack function if I didn't want to and people who want an offensive option don't have to use the defensive capabilities. Seems like a win win!

A) I mean you can say you have a theoretical infinite number swapable equipment sets but if you want them to be easily hot swappable you have only so many buttons to work with considering all the other actions that have to be mapped to the controller. Once you get above 3 I feel you start to make a mess of things and run out of convenient space not to mention needlessly up complexity. You mention Diablo II but that has completely different gameplay. It's also a PC/Mac exclusive game. I'm not sure how Diablo III plays (which is on consoles and computers) but I can't say "this entirely different genre with totally different combat system pulls it off" is a convincing argument.

B) When I say omnidirectional I mean like Smash Bros where when you put up your "shield" a bubble appears around you. What you are talking about is putting up a shield along one side of your choice given the situation. Totally different things with totally different applications.

C) SOTN is not a good example of sheilds being used well. I mean if you want to think so whatever but this isn't a point we can negotiate. I've played the game. Others have played the game. Shields suck. They aren't worth using as they were implemented. Either that needs to change or shields have no purpose coming back. Again the fact that they were dropped and seem not to be missed to me (the few people in favor of shields here are literally the only people I've ever seen care about them in the Castlevania series) from Igavanias and not present in most Metroidvania games should really be telling.

I feel like some people are asking "why not?" when the question they should be asking is "why?" That's the sorts of question you need to ask when to write, paint, draw, program, sculpt or generally just create anything. If you don't you end up with bloat and half-baked or poorly implemented ideas. As I've said multiple times, I have no issue with bringing shields back but they HAVE to change significantly. They were not well implemented last time.

A) I mean there is a number of equipment sets where it eventually becomes cubersome. I'm not entirely sure where that number is but "but you can have so many equipment sets" doesn't solve the issue of why shields in SOTN weren't good. It just doesn't' address the point.

B) I'm not sure if you've ever gotten a chance to play a Smash game (I don't mean that to be condescending - I'm just trying to not make assumptions) the the way shield works in that game is that it protects from all directions at the same time. So like if you were attacked from the front and the back at the same time you'd still be protected. That doesn't describe the shields you were talking about - they work differently on a fundamental level. If you were to get swarmed for example than what you suggested wouldn't be useful.

C) I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. I've been very explicit in why shields were bad (you have to give up an offensive option, they don't actually block many things, you're mobile enough that the better way to avoid taking damage and approach enemies to keep on the move, etc). Whether you had fun using them (which is a-ok to be clear) is irrelevant to whether or not they were generally useful or well balanced. Heck you even admitted that you were playing Devil's Advocate to a point. "Options" and "Options that are actually viable" are different. The former is just the illusion of option if you are often better served not using it.

D) I have no issue taking inspiration from other games or genres. Please at least acknowledge that Diablo games and Metroidvanias games don't play anything alike and what works in one doesn't necessarily work in another.

E) Which castledan post are you referring to specially? In several of my posts I offered was a solution that I thought made shields actually useful and you swatted it down because it was too aggressive or something. Since you objected to it, its clear that just giving shields offensive capabilities isn't objectionable

Also let's be clear. I'm not mad at you or anybody. I'm a bit exasperated because it feels people aren't actually reading what I'm saying but I'm not actually mad LOL

I just read mostly everything in this thread regarding shields
And I see ChucklesTheJester and Zechs mentions the same thing I want to say regarding it, magical shields
And I do see some arguments regarding it, that magical shields are kinda not efficient enough (hope I used the right word)
But, since the world are full of alchemist and magic, why don't use talisman shields?
We see Zangestu have talismans all over at one of his arms
and the way to make the talismans is that by hunting the demons that roaming around the castle
and Miriam will make the talismans with her magic or her alchemy skills with the crystals from the body of the demons
And of course, different demons will gives out different quality of the crystal, and the quality of the talismans will depends on the crystal
So, that is my opinion on this, since I cannot see Miriam carrying a shield, some people here have the same opinion on that

And of course, I wish Miriam can do this

Swords and shields don't always go together. Plenty of times have there been fencers, kensai or swordsmen whom didn't use a shield. For a veriety of reasons. Which, aesthetically I'd wager that is why we haven't seen Miriam with a shield in any artwork.

Also shouldn't assume spells take up spots, especially when I wasn't suggesting anything of the like. We don't know how the magic will work. How specific the equipment options will be and if Crystal curse is any kind of factor at play with either.

With that said, there are more ways to utilize a non equipment type. Especially when magic is a large factor in the developing world. Accessories furnishing a shell, shield or barrior frees up her hands to use two handed weapons without sacrificing defensive options.

Even equipment could hold dual properties; weapons that form shields as a second nature. Due to natural properties, what properties are added ala forging or enchantments. Etc. Shielding could be a native option as well, having its own button, with elemental or attributal adjustments being its own sub menu.