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Post by Dvv on Nov 15, 2015 19:48:53 GMT -6
The recent Kickstarter project Dark Flame brought to light an issue that has been bothering me for years, the metroidvania/igavania style Castlevania games being way to easy. In most games I never even found any reason to use the backdash for anything that wasn't an exploit. Then I remembered Bloodstained had Nightmare Difficulty Mode as a stretchgoal.
What do you want to see out of Nightmare Difficulty Mode and what do you NOT want to see in Nightmare Difficulty Mode?
The number one thing I want to see out of Nightmare Difficulty is more aggressive AI that actually gives you a reason to backdash away from frequently, maybe even give an enemy or two new attacks to throw people who played normal difficulty first off their game, or have a few Nightmare Difficulty exclusive enemies.
Maybe another thing that could be included is an increase in traps/hazards? There are always a lot of rooms in Castlevania that are just long hallways with an enemy or two in them, how about rooms like this get spiced up a bit with a spike trap or two, or maybe even a pendulum? Of course if there is a spike trap it has to be visible on the floor, which brings to me what I don't want to see in Nightmare Difficulty Mode.
The last thing anyone likes in a video game is artificial difficulty, something that's not ACTUALLY hard but that you WILL die to at least once until you've memorized where all the hazards are, something sudden and unavoidable(i.e. a sudden spiketrap completely invisible until it hits you). Now im not saying hazards and traps have to be OBVIOUS, just that they're something that someone who is paying attention can avoid.
Lastly another thing I'd like to avoid is Nightmare Difficulty Mode just being an increase in numbers. No one likes it when an increased difficulty is just the same old same old but every enemy is damage sponge. Of course enemies should have increased HP but it shouldn't be increased to the point that its obnoxious and tedious.
What about you guys?
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Post by allooutrick on Nov 15, 2015 21:40:02 GMT -6
What I love about games that focus on stealth is that the difficulty comes from how alert enemies are and changing the difficulty can affect that. What I would love to see on nightmare mode is something similar and that would be enemies behave more aggresively.
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Post by Astaroth on Nov 16, 2015 9:25:39 GMT -6
Lol, medusa heads in every room >3<
...please no, id break so many controllers ;_;
As for nightmare, a more aggressive ai, add a few weaker troll enemies or a more powerful enemy into rooms, a few nightmare only enemies above the normal mode top tier mobs to put into the high level areas, offset by a much higher drop rate (which has the added effect of lessening farm overlevelling), and a special ending, would add both incentive and reward to playing it, without making it a damage sponge convention
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 16, 2015 10:36:34 GMT -6
I mostly agree with what's been said so far. I think that one simple way to do this, too, would be just to alter the enemy placement. Weaker monsters are phased out sooner or don't appear at all, while later game enemies take their spots in more inconvenient locations. There could be some devious enemy placement where you have to approach the situation carefully to avoid damage, even better if the AI works together against you.
And maybe in Nightmare, the consequences of the curse are more dire? There might be detriments for using magic too much or spending too much time with the crafting system. For an even greater challenge, maybe you have to run Nightmare as Pure Miriam and not use either at all? But perhaps by choosing to do so, you are stronger with raw damage or use demon-slaying subweapons empowered by your purity.
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Post by Ghalion on Nov 16, 2015 10:51:15 GMT -6
I like it when harder settings place more of the monsters you only see a handful of times in the game.
Different placements in general is fun too cuz it makes exploration feel newish again more than just a newer difficulty with harder enemies due to stats OR AI.
Placing random bosses around as elite trash is also fun.
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 16, 2015 16:25:42 GMT -6
I like all of these suggestions except for the special ending. Putting part of a game's story behind difficulty levels feels like a "come on, really?" thing to do. I remember Shadows of the Empire doing something similar with difficulty levels and trying to get the "full" ending felt more like a chore than an incentive/reward. It's also a wasted effort on the developer's end since players can just look up easter eggs and cutscenes on youtube nowadays.
The higher drop rate idea feels like a much better incentive to play higher difficulties since it's based on the player themselves experiencing the game in a new way and lures them into a false sense of security. Kinda like using candy to lure people into a gingerbread house before trapping them in an oven, and because they have that candy, they feel compelled to fight their way out even though the odds are stacked against them.
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Post by Dvv on Nov 16, 2015 16:58:57 GMT -6
offset by a much higher drop rate (which has the added effect of lessening farm overlevelling) I fully support this ideas since its pretty smart actually. I don't think I've ever played an Igavania where I didn't overlevel because I was too busy grinding for items/skills/etc. Placing random bosses around as elite trash is also fun. I also like this idea Placing weaker boss enemies as normal enemies is always fun as long as its something you can actually deal with at random, like Gaibon and Slogra. |
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Post by Astaroth on Nov 16, 2015 18:08:10 GMT -6
I like all of these suggestions except for the special ending. Putting part of a game's story behind difficulty levels feels like a "come on, really?" thing to do. I remember Shadows of the Empire doing something similar with difficulty levels and trying to get the "full" ending felt more like a chore than an incentive/reward. It's also a wasted effort on the developer's end since players can just look up easter eggs and cutscenes on youtube nowadays. The higher drop rate idea feels like a much better incentive to play higher difficulties since it's based on the player themselves experiencing the game in a new way and lures them into a false sense of security. Kinda like using candy to lure people into a gingerbread house before trapping them in an oven, and because they have that candy, they feel compelled to fight their way out even though the odds are stacked against them. Agree that putting a story ending tied to difficulty is a bad idea, and while yes youtube is a spoiler repository you could make the same claim for any ending/cutscene/game so why make anything if itll just be up on youtube in a week? An easter egg ending for nightmare would give you a cherry buried under the walnut pile, you have to work to get each morsel and get down to it and that will make it so much better when you do get it, but you still get the story ending if you go for the chocolate sundae or the can of whipped cream ...i need to stop commenting on an empty stomach |
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 16, 2015 20:12:00 GMT -6
I like all of these suggestions except for the special ending. Putting part of a game's story behind difficulty levels feels like a "come on, really?" thing to do. I remember Shadows of the Empire doing something similar with difficulty levels and trying to get the "full" ending felt more like a chore than an incentive/reward. It's also a wasted effort on the developer's end since players can just look up easter eggs and cutscenes on youtube nowadays. The higher drop rate idea feels like a much better incentive to play higher difficulties since it's based on the player themselves experiencing the game in a new way and lures them into a false sense of security. Kinda like using candy to lure people into a gingerbread house before trapping them in an oven, and because they have that candy, they feel compelled to fight their way out even though the odds are stacked against them. Agree that putting a story ending tied to difficulty is a bad idea, and while yes youtube is a spoiler repository you could make the same claim for any ending/cutscene/game so why make anything if itll just be up on youtube in a week? An easter egg ending for nightmare would give you a cherry buried under the walnut pile, you have to work to get each morsel and get down to it and that will make it so much better when you do get it, but you still get the story ending if you go for the chocolate sundae or the can of whipped cream ...i need to stop commenting on an empty stomach Because playing a game for yourself and just watching someone else play it are two different experiences. I know you're trying to sell the idea of an easter egg ending as a fun reward and motivation for playing difficult modes. However, I just don't see it that way. I think the main incentive for playing games at harder difficulties should be that players actually want to play them. Their personal experience/time they enjoyed should be the reward (or Steam/Xbox Achievements/PSN Trophies and bragging rights, if people are into those). Having to play a game on a difficulty you feel is out of your league is a huge time investment, frustrating experience, and just not worth it for a different/extra cutscene. I don't think having story details or easter eggs on higher difficulties is fair to people who are interested in the story, want to access every story detail and easter egg for themselves, and suck at the game. |
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Post by Dvv on Nov 16, 2015 21:02:44 GMT -6
I don't think having story details or easter eggs on higher difficulties is fair to people who are interested in the story, want to access every story detail and easter egg for themselves, and suck at the game. Story details? Sure I don't think that should be locked behind higher difficulty. An easter egg or an unlock? Harmless. No harm in giving anyone who beat the hardest difficulty an extra costume/accessory or a weapon for future playthroughs. It's nice to have an incentive to push yourself. Nothing can push someone to finish something grueling more then knowing there is a reward at the peak of the mountain. If someone DOES suck at the game like you said a nice little incentive can push someone to put more effort then normal. As long as there is nothing too grand like a whole other character then its fine. |
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 17, 2015 7:51:31 GMT -6
I don't think having story details or easter eggs on higher difficulties is fair to people who are interested in the story, want to access every story detail and easter egg for themselves, and suck at the game. Story details? Sure I don't think that should be locked behind higher difficulty. An easter egg or an unlock? Harmless. No harm in giving anyone who beat the hardest difficulty an extra costume/accessory or a weapon for future playthroughs. It's nice to have an incentive to push yourself. Nothing can push someone to finish something grueling more then knowing there is a reward at the peak of the mountain. If someone DOES suck at the game like you said a nice little incentive can push someone to put more effort then normal. As long as there is nothing too grand like a whole other character then its fine. I think a better solution would be to have multiple ways to unlock extras instead of just tying them to difficulty levels, especially since Nightmare mode is supposed to be super hard. People play games for different reasons, including relaxation, entertainment, and escape. I understand wanting to reward skill and provide challenge, but I don't think "get good" should justify withholding content, story or otherwise. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 17, 2015 8:16:58 GMT -6
Incentivizing completion of higher difficulties is important, though. It doesn't have to be anything particularly important, just -something- to show for it. In a game with as much gear and extras as we expect this one to have, why not? Maybe a special hat? Games have been doing this for a long time now, and even in games I love, sometimes I forgo doing the higher difficulties because I don't feel like I really want that completion unlock...but I'm glad it's there as a reward for those that do.
Someone that plays the game seriously enough to "get gud", that's great. Give them a special cookie they can eat for 10 HP, I don't know...but something! Otherwise, these careful difficulty balancing "not just numbers" suggestions we've all been making this whole time, if implemented, will have gone to waste because so few players will bother with it as there's no incentive to do so. Granted, who knows if any of our ideas will make it in, but you know what I'm saying.
I would figure that in general, if someone is a fan enough of the game to care about that one difficulty thing they're missing, then they care enough to keep playing/get beter at it. If there's an alternative way to get a hold of it, I imagine it would be real $$$ lol. Oh, games these days...
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Post by Dvv on Nov 17, 2015 13:10:47 GMT -6
I think a better solution would be to have multiple ways to unlock extras instead of just tying them to difficulty levels, especially since Nightmare mode is supposed to be super hard. People play games for different reasons, including relaxation, entertainment, and escape. I understand wanting to reward skill and provide challenge, but I don't think "get good" should justify withholding content, story or otherwise. I just don't agree with you on this. Not everyone is able to unlock everything in a game and that's fine. Saying that everyone should be able to unlock everything regardless of skill is like saying "Congratulations! You gained a gold star because you tried!". Chances are is someone actually wants to unlock everything they're willing to submit themselves to the harder difficulty in the first place. |
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Post by Ghalion on Nov 17, 2015 16:19:30 GMT -6
Dont people like challenge for challenge's sake anynore?
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Post by allooutrick on Nov 17, 2015 16:36:48 GMT -6
Dont people like challenge for challenge's sake anynore? I played through Ninja Gaiden 2 (Xbox 360) multiple times and nearly beat it on its highest difficulty. So I feel I can safely say I take on challenges simply to overcome the challenge itself. |
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 17, 2015 18:17:25 GMT -6
I think a better solution would be to have multiple ways to unlock extras instead of just tying them to difficulty levels, especially since Nightmare mode is supposed to be super hard. People play games for different reasons, including relaxation, entertainment, and escape. I understand wanting to reward skill and provide challenge, but I don't think "get good" should justify withholding content, story or otherwise. I just don't agree with you on this. Not everyone is able to unlock everything in a game and that's fine. Saying that everyone should be able to unlock everything regardless of skill is like saying "Congratulations! You gained a gold star because you tried!". Chances are is someone actually wants to unlock everything they're willing to submit themselves to the harder difficulty in the first place. Well, I think that gold star is worth fighting for. It wouldn't stop anyone from enjoying Nightmare mode if they wanted to do it. The challenge is still there. All the arguments in favor of withholding game content behind difficulty (or one unlock method) and how people should try harder/get better feel like the conversation in KOTOR about the Mandalorian war where Carth goes "I don't want to talk about the horrors of war," and Canderous replies by saying "Horrors of war? My people only know the glory of battle" and tells Carth he hoped he'd be more like him. Not everyone plays games to be challenged, but I don't want to take away challenge from people who want it. I'd rather find a solution that accommodates as many people as possible than just play a certain way. Everyone experiences games differently. I feel multiple unlock methods are a good way of giving Canderous people who want challenge and Carth people who aren't interested in challenge but still want to spend time with a game the freedom to enjoy it the way they want. Also I realized the devs could just make codes to access unlockable content instead. |
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Post by Dvv on Nov 17, 2015 19:39:31 GMT -6
I just don't agree with you on this. Not everyone is able to unlock everything in a game and that's fine. Saying that everyone should be able to unlock everything regardless of skill is like saying "Congratulations! You gained a gold star because you tried!". Chances are is someone actually wants to unlock everything they're willing to submit themselves to the harder difficulty in the first place. Well, I think that gold star is worth fighting for. It wouldn't stop anyone from enjoying Nightmare mode if they wanted to do it. All the arguments in favor of withholding content behind difficulty (or one unlock method) and how people should try harder/get better feel like the conversation in KOTOR about the Mandalorian war where Carth goes "I don't want to talk about the horrors of war," and Canderous replies by saying "My people only know the glory of battle." Everyone experiences games differently. I feel multiple unlock methods are a good way of giving Canderous people who want challenge and Carth people who aren't interested in challenge but still want to spend time with the game the space/freedom to enjoy things the way they want. Putting in an easy and a hard way to unlock something makes ABSOLUTELY zero sense. The easy way COMPLETELY invalidates the hard way, as no one who would want said unlock would do it the hard way. At that point no one doing the hard way would be doing it for the unlock. Some people need the incentive of a prize to do something hard, some reason to push themselves farther then they would normally. Once again im not saying story details as that is something that shouldn't be locked off, it could be something as small as a new costume, hairstyle or accessory. Obviously a ton of people are going to play Nightmare difficulty just for the sake of doing it, myself included, but giving the people who are iffy about trying something harder a reason to push themselves is always nice. Even some of the Castlevania games give you a reward for finishing the hard mode, or have weapons and equips that can only be gotten while doing hard mode. |
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 17, 2015 23:46:11 GMT -6
Putting in an easy and a hard way to unlock something makes ABSOLUTELY zero sense. The easy way COMPLETELY invalidates the hard way, as no one who would want said unlock would do it the hard way. At that point no one doing the hard way would be doing it for the unlock. Some people need the incentive of a prize to do something hard, some reason to push themselves farther then they would normally. Once again im not saying story details as that is something that shouldn't be locked off, it could be something as small as a new costume, hairstyle or accessory. Obviously a ton of people are going to play Nightmare difficulty just for the sake of doing it, myself included, but giving the people who are iffy about trying something harder a reason to push themselves is always nice. Even some of the Castlevania games give you a reward for finishing the hard mode, or have weapons and equips that can only be gotten while doing hard mode. ...I think you'll be fine.  But in all seriousness, I should've gone into more detail of the examples I want to see with multiple unlocks and probably should've done it earlier in order to save everyone a lot of grief. How ideas are executed are more important than the idea themselves, and multiple unlock options doesn't automatically mean "easy and hard way." I was thinking "this way or that way". This is what I hope to see happen: -Beat Nightmare mode once, or finish 10 playthroughs on other difficulties -Beat the game in 3 hrs or less, or slay a total of 3,000 cumulative enemies -Beat boss rush on hard in less than 8 minutes, or beat 5o cumulative bosses on boss rush There'd be an option that rewards players who aren't as skilled and still dedicate time to the game without just giving things away, but doing it the "hard"/skilled way could be more worthwhile. With the Nightmare mode example, beating it could actually be faster and a better option. Incentive would still be there, but it's also accommodating other players who don't want to put up with difficulty (or just suck). I hope this clears things up and feels like a better solution. If not... I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind at this point and it'd probably be best to move on. |
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Post by Dvv on Nov 18, 2015 0:34:07 GMT -6
...I think you'll be fine. Thinking about people that aren't me that need just a little push to try something they otherwise wouldn't. This is what I hope to see happen: -Beat Nightmare mode once, or finish 10 playthroughs on other difficulties -Beat the game in 3 hrs or less, or slay a total of 3,000 cumulative enemies -Beat boss rush on hard in less than 8 minutes, or beat 5o cumulative bosses on boss rush These sound completely unreasonable besides the second one. If not... I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind at this point and it'd probably be best to move on. Guess not, agree to disagree. |
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Post by ghaleon on Nov 18, 2015 3:33:44 GMT -6
I don't like meandering into someone's suggestion and telling them it is bad without thinking of some portion of it I support as well.
And while I don't think this thread is a 'flamewar' or anything like that, I have to say I don't write this in an effort to add fuel to the 'fire'.
But I can't help it. Dvv, I think your accusations of Goob having ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. is disrespectful... how would you like it if I said "please use a brain before posting an opinion"? Pretty rude and disrespectful right? Are they the same thing? no, but do they MEAN the same thing? well... yeah, both lines pretty much accuse the other person of having no thought behind their opinions.
Goob's opinions aren't absolutely non-sensical, you just disagree with them. Try to do so with logic instead of accusing the dude of making absolutely no sense, being completely unreasonable, etc. It just makes you look like a jerk.
Frankly I think it's pretty sad that people these days think they need some kind of reward for playing a game on a harder difficulty... harder difficulties exist to provide challenge to players who enjoy challenge in games and feel normal difficulties do not provide.. that's it... games are supposed to be fun to the people who want to have fun...not to hold something hostage and force people to play them.
You talk about 'pushing' players like that's a good thing... I myself as a gamer enjoy pushing myself to do better, but not everyone is me, not everyone plays games for the same reason as me... how arrogant do I have to be to think EVERYONE should enjoy things for the same reason as me?
If you want to talk about sense, I think it makes no sense to force people to push themselves to give them a reward for a game... Imagine if you WANTED the reward, like it was a costume you thought looked the best, and you wanted to enjoy it, but you weren't a good gamer, and playing nightmare was... a nightmare... imagine pushing yourself to finally earn it after years..then what... there's nothing new or challenging to enjoy with what you finally earned.. that's it. the game is done... I mean games have replay value and stuff sure.. but if you weren't good and nightmare was past your limitations and you worked and worked and worked to get that damn reward, do you REALLY think you'd feel like playing the game more after you PUSHED yourself to get it? When people push themselves on and on, they get burnt out, they need a break... so now they got their damn reward and they can't even use it for their normal casual enjoyment. Frankly I think that's counter-productive, and a waste of asset-development.
Not to mention how unfair would it be if one player's fave costume was costume #3, which you get for getting a few drops from some zombies, a wolf, and the 2nd boss, and another player's fave costume was obtained only via finishing nightmare mode? Let's make player #2s tastes *WAY* harder to obtain because damn their tastes!
Frankly I think unlocking a story makes more sense than unlocking something for fun because of the above reasons... story is something everyone can enjoy the same, but cosmetics matter more to some people than others, and I don't see why some people should have to do more for what they want than others...not that I think a story should be unlocked on hard or whatever as well.
I'm sorry to continue something you guys agreed to drop, but I only saw that blurb that set me off so to speak at the same session as when you guys stopped, and I thought I should say something. I know I like it when people speak up when I think people disrespect me after all.
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