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Post by xs8b on Nov 12, 2015 1:53:50 GMT -6
One of the things I always loved about Capcom's fighting games (as well as Guilty Gear and I'm sure many others) was the way a player was rewarded for beating an opponent in a special way, and this would also change the characters ending. This is a good way to keep a base difficulty while providing hard challenges for those who want it. For instance, killing an enemy or boss in a special way, say without be hit or without using special equipment, or magic could change the enemies drop items. This would also help to balance farming and actually reward the player for the accomplishment without breaking the balance of the game.
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Post by Kaius on Nov 21, 2015 4:54:04 GMT -6
I would say : Harder than SotN. I want a real challenge in this game. Not something impossible though. I think we need to have a "chill mode" to enjoy the story and basically we should not face a terrifying challenge if we're just here to enjoy the lore. Two specific spheres but both present. "Il en faut pour tous les goûts" like we say in French (~ all tastes must be pleased).
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Galamoth
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 2, 2015 16:01:42 GMT -6
I'd actually like it if Bloodstained was more difficult than OoE. (Edit): Perhaps a balance between OoE & SotN difficulty might work.
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Post by ghaleon on Dec 2, 2015 19:26:10 GMT -6
I already answered in depth but one thing I like in hard games (and for those who forgot I too want it harder than OOE) is when you DO stumble across a secret treasure room or lucky rare drop or something... I want it to feel like "*gasp*, thank goodness!" for first/second playthrus... not "oh yeah, cool, whatever"... that you feel when you get something extra that you don't feel like you really need.
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Dec 3, 2015 10:01:02 GMT -6
You guys were thinking in terms of mook AI when I was talking about difficulty levels. I was talking about this.
"Player" AI: Used in gameplay where each computer player ostensibly has equal footing with the human player(s). This situation is common in games where bots fill in for humans in multiplayer scenarios. Higher difficulties usually make the AI smarter, faster, and/or more skilled. They'll often cheat on higher difficulties, or cheat more than they do on the lower ones. There may also be harsher environmental forces that don't seem to affect the AI as much as humans.
The easiest example would be Max Payne 1 and 2 and even 3 sometimes. They still go down in one shot, but they can just as easily drop you on higher difficulties. Actually the former 2 change dynamically. You could be doing marvelous on the lowest difficulty and then BAM. The game would have adapted to how good you were already.
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Post by saberwolf94 on Dec 6, 2015 0:27:10 GMT -6
I agree, they hit Order of Ecclesia just right and besides there's always grinding.
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Post by Clear on Dec 15, 2015 2:26:44 GMT -6
Bloodstained should be SoTN/OoE hybrid level of difficulty. SoTN difficulty in one area or region, while OoE in others, as an example.
Yet even SoTN level of difficulty can be challenging for players just getting into Igavania. It may be somewhat difficult at first, but in no time the game will get easier as long as the players hang on.
For example, when I played and finished SoTN for the first time, I remember dying a handful of times throughout the whole run. I kept at it, and once I got a couple of Chakram drops from fighting many times a particular enemy, things started to get easy. And just this very simple find of Chakrams (there are better weapons, but these were just as cool!) and the awesome feeling of mowing down enemies with them felt like a huge reward for experimenting and exploring within the game. I started liking SoTN so much that I was replaying the game almost on an annual basis! Obviously, by this time, SoTN had went from hard to easy. (Of course that was then, but I feel that new players can still be challenged just as similarly even with online resources.)
I then played the GBA and DS games much later. Because of my experiences with SoTN, I found all but one of the handheld titles easy. OoE was not easy, and, as an experienced Igavania player, I very much welcomed the difficulty increase. Speaking as someone who has played and finished the main quests of the GBA and DS titles in order of release, OoE, being the final handheld title, felt as though the Igavania franchise has been going in a wonderful direction in many ways.
With all that said, I voted personally for OoE difficulty.
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Post by Valtiel on Dec 15, 2015 17:24:45 GMT -6
Multiple difficulty levels would be nice. Circle of the Moon is my favorite Symphony-style Castlevania so the harder the better in my opinion. But I realize not everyone likes games that difficult so the best option would be to have multiple difficultly levels you can select from at the outset.
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 15, 2015 17:37:57 GMT -6
In any case... I do remember from the Kickstarter page that there's going to be a "Nightmare" Mode (I'm assuming that's referring to difficulty).
I believe Iga did mention that "Normal" would, of course, also be an available difficulty.
(I know this thread is more about the general difficulty of the game, rather than difficulty settings/modes, but I'm wondering how many there will be to select)
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Post by GenericSoda on Dec 21, 2015 1:01:41 GMT -6
Ok so, Castlevania difficulty is something I ruminate over often, so let me give my two cents.
SotN and AoS are piss easy. SotN gives you so many options between multiple pieces of equipment to pimp out your stats that removes most of the challenge from early on: gigantic knight enemies who deal billions of damage. You can simply outdo the enemy's stats by amassing equipment. AoS has some souls that are flabbergastingly good for their cost (Lightning Doll and Nightmare come to mind) and make the one instance where the literally game-breaking Claimh Solais is useless - Julius - pretty inconsequential. Potions heal way too much for their cost, so a single high potion can just get you out of any trouble. I honestly don't remember SotN's bosses a whole lot, but in AoS most of the bosses only had one or two attacks that worked in pretty predictable ways. Headhunter was probably the first real challenge in that game because he was mobile and had lots of different things going on between all the phases of battle.
DoS: Competent challenge. Some stuff is pretty tricky, like the final boss, Abaddon, and the Puppet Master if your weapons aren't optimized (which is good! Experiment with your equipment!!), but a lot of the normal enemies don't really leave a strong impression outside of damage sponges like the Iron Golem or Frankenstein, or monsters that deal baffling amounts of damage like the Cave Troll. The bosses all have lots of tricks up their sleeves, keeping the player on their toes at all times. Similarly, the most memorable regular enemies also have several different options, like the Malachi. Potions are a good deal less effective, but still matter because they restore decent chunks of HP.
PoR: See above, except enemies have a lot more options in general, which is a really good thing. Potions have a good balance in this game, being a bit less effective early on but also costing less.
PoR Hard Mode: bats and ghosts do 30% with each hit regardless of your level, bother this nonsense
OoE: Bats don't deal absurd damage, but everything else deals lots and lots of damage. I basically never used potions because this game is more based around Shanoa's mobility and dealing lots of damage. I like this though, it makes taking the initiative in battle really important. Blackmore is one of my favorite battles in the series because he deals so much damage and doesn't rely on gimmicks. Eligor is also a really neat gimmick/puzzle boss that doesn't end up being really tedious. My favorite part is that most of the game's enemies have lots of different methods of attack, especially the bosses. The Colossus boss in the mansion kicked my ass until I figured out his gimmicks.
The recurring pattern of this half asleep rambling is that enemies with lots of options make for the most challenging games. PoR is a really fun, solid game that I feel gets a lot of needless hate, but I can't stand its hard mode for simply clusterfucking the screen with objects and minor enemies that deal far too much damage. The parts in the Nation of Fools where you ascend past bone swings and Acrobat skeletons is actual challenge because you can move at a pace you feel comfortable with, killing what you feel like because the swinging bones work as platforms. Throwing ghosts and fleamen at the player in the pyramid level is just needless crowding and forcing the player to keep up with infinitely spawning enemies that can pop out of nowhere for attacks that can't possibly be reacted to is completely unreasonable and no fun at all. It forces the player to pick Jonathan just to tank hits.
Challenge isn't just about damage, it's about creating new situations where there wasn't a huge challenge before. The Medusa hallway in Castlevania 1 wouldn't be as hard if the enemies still did two pegs of health: you could just tank hits and stroll up to Death unopposed. My ideal difficulty curve would be between DoS and PoR, with higher difficulty settings focusing less on punishing the player and more about betraying the player's expectations by altering particular room's layout, enemy placement, or enemy behavior in specific rooms, especially if it takes into account the distance between save rooms.
Like Adventure: Rebirth did.
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Post by chainsofdusk on Dec 30, 2015 14:16:20 GMT -6
I want the general difficulty to be as hard as OoE but I also want to have the option to become as rediculously powerful if you do all the extra tough stuff as well. Like being able to get to level 255 after beating it at lvl 1 hard mode cap. Or getting some really broken items for doing the challenges like the stat up items in PoR. And to add to this I like the balance Iga put in his games, even though lvl 1 cap hard mode is needed to unlock the level limit you can use NG+ file to beef up your inventry first and your hp, mp, and heart stats. For the challenge enthusiasts who wish to do this type of playthrough fresh they can but it dosn't lock out someone who doesn't want to go through these frustrations but is willing to spend a bit more time in the game. I agree with the level difficulty mode styles, as they added to the longevity of the Castlevania titles. Both PoR and OoE were humorously difficult, and I'd like to see this same level of difficulty captured in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night in some fashion. As you somewhat mentioned, when playing as the default protagonist(s) on these modes, the use items such as miser's ring to steadily increase their damage made a huge differences in the overall game play difficulty of said modes. While it was amusing at first, I later realized that it took away from the boss fights and almost felt like borderline cheating in a sense (somewhat similar to the Glyph Union attack "Universitas" spam with the Queen of Hearts helmet, you could essentially walk into any boss fights and, with enough heart refreshes, could obliterate the boss untouched within a span of two or three seconds). Amusing at first, but disappointing later on. What I'm hoping for is no Alucard Shield, Miser's Ring, "Universitas" Glyph Union level of nonsense, at least on the higher difficulty settings. Restrict item use in harder difficulties, to prevent these loop holes in the difficulty level, at least until full completion of said difficulty mode. Even if it is more difficult overall, and if may frustrate some players, the satisfaction you get from finally beating these bosses at such impossible odds is immense. The funny part is that the restrictions of items use in other character modes could also turn bosses that were earlier perceived to be easy into outright nightmares. An example I would have is "The Creature" in PoR. Normal default game play, fun fight that is somewhat challenging, if at all. Later, I tried lvl.1 Richter mode against him. He was an absolutely insane boss fight (in fact, all of the last 6 bosses became completely ridiculous). From my experience, hard modes with items available had the most enjoyable exploration content, whereas hard modes with no items available had the most enjoyable boss fights experiences. With this in mind, I'd hope that an agreement of sorts could be met to capture both aspects of this gaming, but I'm curious as to how this can be accomplished beyond item restrictions. Anyone got some ideas?
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Cale
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Post by Cale on Dec 30, 2015 16:54:52 GMT -6
I want the general difficulty to be as hard as OoE but I also want to have the option to become as rediculously powerful if you do all the extra tough stuff as well. Like being able to get to level 255 after beating it at lvl 1 hard mode cap. Or getting some really broken items for doing the challenges like the stat up items in PoR. And to add to this I like the balance Iga put in his games, even though lvl 1 cap hard mode is needed to unlock the level limit you can use NG+ file to beef up your inventry first and your hp, mp, and heart stats. For the challenge enthusiasts who wish to do this type of playthrough fresh they can but it dosn't lock out someone who doesn't want to go through these frustrations but is willing to spend a bit more time in the game. I agree with the level difficulty mode styles, as they added to the longevity of the Castlevania titles. Both PoR and OoE were humorously difficult, and I'd like to see this same level of difficulty captured in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night in some fashion. As you somewhat mentioned, when playing as the default protagonist(s) on these modes, the use items such as miser's ring to steadily increase their damage made a huge differences in the overall game play difficulty of said modes. While it was amusing at first, I later realized that it took away from the boss fights and almost felt like borderline cheating in a sense (somewhat similar to the Glyph Union attack "Universitas" spam with the Queen of Hearts helmet, you could essentially walk into any boss fights and, with enough heart refreshes, could obliterate the boss untouched within a span of two or three seconds). Amusing at first, but disappointing later on. What I'm hoping for is no Alucard Shield, Miser's Ring, "Universitas" Glyph Union level of nonsense, at least on the higher difficulty settings. Restrict item use in harder difficulties, to prevent these loop holes in the difficulty level, at least until full completion of said difficulty mode. Even if it is more difficult overall, and if may frustrate some players, the satisfaction you get from finally beating these bosses at such impossible odds is immense. The funny part is that the restrictions of items use in other character modes could also turn bosses that were earlier perceived to be easy into outright nightmares. An example I would have is "The Creature" in PoR. Normal default game play, fun fight that is somewhat challenging, if at all. Later, I tried lvl.1 Richter mode against him. He was an absolutely insane boss fight (in fact, all of the last 6 bosses became completely ridiculous). From my experience, hard modes with items available had the most enjoyable exploration content, whereas hard modes with no items available had the most enjoyable boss fights experiences. With this in mind, I'd hope that an agreement of sorts could be met to capture both aspects of this gaming, but I'm curious as to how this can be accomplished beyond item restrictions. Anyone got some ideas? Bolded amazing idea.
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Post by Ghalion on Dec 30, 2015 21:29:44 GMT -6
I never understood the appeal of restricting the player forcefully when thwy can easily restrict themselves if they want to.
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Post by chainsofdusk on Dec 31, 2015 0:16:54 GMT -6
I never understood the appeal of restricting the player forcefully when thwy can easily restrict themselves if they want to. It may seem counter intuitive at first, but the reasoning behind restriction, at least I would argue, is based on how players can relate to the experience. If a game mode is easy and has exploits/loop hole mechanics, restricting ones self to increase the challenge of a situation is a hollow victory. Sure, you may do it yourself, but who can relate to also doing it? Humans, by nature, are lazy. If an easy route exists, why bother with any other? How the experience becomes relatable, what will fans talk about, and what were their experiences? These are the core questions I want to ask with respect to hard modes. If one sole variant of game play is exceedingly better than any other, especially when there are a plethora of items available, everyone's story will be "I used [Insert Unbalanced Item/Strategy Here], and it pretty much can solo the entire game, it's overpowered!". This makes the whole point of a hard mode stale, very fast. Furthermore, what is the point of a hard mode when it isn't generally that hard? It's such a contradiction to the entire experience itself!
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 31, 2015 8:05:52 GMT -6
Maybe not quite the "items" you mean, but I would like the idea of higher restrictions/doing away with menu healing items. Save points, spells and perhaps on-screen drops/wall finds can increase health, but not a stockpile of hi-potions. I found myself ignoring those in most games anyway.
A self-imposed restriction for the sake of difficulty is also lacking to me in another way: I want to experience the game and difficulty as it was intended by the people that made it. If there are things in the game available to use, I should be able to use them fairly and experience the game fully as they had wanted me to. It should be easy or tough by its own merits, and then require some ingenuity and adaptation on behalf of the player when things aren't working out. It makes the discovery of new/better things in the game that much more meaningful than if you're already playing a game keeping yourself from using an entire mechanic of it.
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Post by GenericSoda on Dec 31, 2015 11:11:54 GMT -6
I don't like item restrictions because it feels arbitrary and punishing for no real reason. I earned that super good item, why should I not get to use it how I see fit?
Now that I think about it I'm a glutton for Darkest Dungeon limiting the amount of items you can buy for different quests, so maybe I'm just a doof. In that case it's about stockpiling for specific missions though. Maybe if on harder difficulties the store (if there was one) would only allow you to hit say, five high potions in your inventory, so if you had five already you couldn't buy any more but could get them from random drops.
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Post by Wally on Oct 27, 2016 0:38:49 GMT -6
That's a good scenario right there. Normal on par with DoS would be good for newcomers or people who don't find difficult games fun while still remaining more difficult than SOTN, Hard mode on par with OOE would be good for experienced players, and Nightmare could be for people who want to rip their hair out or break their controllers while playing a difficult game. Everyone gets what they want. i could go for this, i never got around to 100% OoE but i love running SotN every now and then and im currently slogging my way through the PoR arena for items at 60 i will say this though, i actually like SotNs difficulty curve (DoS has a similar curve but more refined for less of a swing) for normal because the levels and the gear overtake it, it allows you to choose your own difficulty by deciding what level you want to shoot for and what gear you want to use to make it to the end, instead of the curve being set to meet up with the gear and stats where by the end youre forced to use the best gear and almost max lvl to beat the final boss or abuse the magic/item system for an easy kill. if you want to nuke drac with dual crissaegrims/inf buffalo stars/godshield you can, if you want to challenge him to fisticuffs in your bloomers at as low a level you can manage, you can (thatd be a couple hour fight worth streaming >P) part of the reason i keep bringing up relics that would allow you to freeze your level, gold, and mastery (if its implemented) is that it would give us another way to tweak the difficulty (along with gear) on the fly (as well as hopefully being easy to implement for the devs). game getting too easy? freeze your level and mastery, equip weaker gear and continue, and if it gets too difficult later you turn them off and put on better gear ^_^ I agree with this so much. As a completionist, the castlevania games became to easy for me because I would become so overleveled from framing rare drop items. A relic that allows me to freeze my experience would stop me from being too strong.
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Elfina Ashfield
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Oct 28, 2016 0:45:27 GMT -6
Easy: SoTN Normal: Harder than SoTN, easier than OoE Hard: OoE Nightmare: Harder than OoE
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Olrox
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Post by Olrox on Oct 28, 2016 4:31:58 GMT -6
I voted for different reference. I'd like something harder than SOTN, but not as difficult as OOE. I felt the Souls and PoR games had a good level of difficulty. But as other people have brought up, I'd like the super hard stuff to be in Classic Mode or Nightmare difficulty in order to give people more options on how to enjoy the game. This, Souls level of difficulty would be awesome. I'm really expecting ultra hard difficulty in Classic and nightmare mode.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 28, 2016 7:25:14 GMT -6
Souls? You guys mean Sorrow?
This guy might be able to give you some insight on that.
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