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Post by gradius on Jul 19, 2019 11:44:49 GMT -6
NO NO NO NO NO! For the love of Orlok, please, just don't nerf things! Don't listen to those Steam fanboys, complaining all the time, about such things!
This is a single player game... An Igavania, too (exploration yields exploitation treasures, like Crissaegrim, Power of the Sire and other stuff, which is core mechanisms in both gameplay and style)... This isn't your run of the mill, competitive, generic MMO or something!
Please, fix the bugs, but for Holy Lisa's sake, DON'T "FIX" WHAT ISN'T BROKEN!!!
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Post by Yän on Jul 19, 2019 11:48:57 GMT -6
gradius can you provide some context for this post?
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Post by EBBenjy on Jul 19, 2019 11:50:26 GMT -6
I'm also extremely upset with all the nerfs. This is a horrible idea. Why take away all the fun toys this game gives you?
I'd personally like to see the justification behind every one of these nerfs.
....This game needs its strong options that reward skill and experimentation.
If everything is just weak, then nothing is meaningful. If everything is strong, however, then everything can become someone's favourite.
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gradius
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Post by gradius on Jul 19, 2019 11:54:38 GMT -6
gradius can you provide some context for this post? /posts/2569631 Familiar Changes
Familiar upgrade via Grade was nerfed Increased strength based on level Dullahammer Head has been nerfed Shard Adjustments (Decreased Power)
Riga Storaema Craftwork Bunnymorphosis Flame Cannon Straight Arrow Chase Arrow Heretical Grinder Circle Ripper Shooting Dagger Riga Dohin Welcome Company (nerfed significantly - starting from 3 portraits instead of 5) Weapon Adjustments (Decreased Power)
Flying Edge Rhava Bural Rhava Velar Enemy HP Increases
Dullahammer Head Malediction
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 19, 2019 11:58:14 GMT -6
haha well here's my thoughts from elsewhere
partly I think that what's fun about these games is abusing the powerful stuff, but it's probably better in the long run if they adjust things that overshadow other stuff or trivialize the level design too much Welcome Company and Straight Arrow especially was extremely good for how early you can get it, and stays good for the whole game For me basically WC made the dullahammer heads never a consideration when I had that thing up, but now their HP is also higher I think the best argument against it is that a lot of people use those things as accessibility tools who would otherwise struggle at the game. I think it should be accessible with powerful things for those guys And I think the functions will be the same so they should be fine
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Post by anonthemouse on Jul 19, 2019 11:59:56 GMT -6
That's a bit of an...extreme reaction to the latest update announcement, but I agree with the general sentiment.
Leaving aside that the Rhava weapons and Flying Edge didn't need any nerfing, as they already trade lower stats for their unique benefits, I don't think that nerfs in general were needed. Though while I'm on the subject of unnecessary nerfs... Craftwork needed a nerf? Who was using Craftwork for damage? However, even if nerfs were need, they certainly shouldn't come without buffing other things. ...and I'm not talking about the Dullahammer Head and Malediction, which absolutely did not need a buff of any kind, and especially not an HP buff in particular. If those enemies are any harder to kill, the rooms that contain them will be pure torture.
Seeing a changelog full of nerfs for absolutely anything people currently like using is...well, it's just horrible. With changes like this, I'd rather just keep the bugs. I don't need "fixes" like these.
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Post by third on Jul 19, 2019 12:03:27 GMT -6
Yes! I too am extremely upset about things! ... I have no idea what you're talking about, this post is lacking in information.
I don't know what nerfs you're talking about, but from the moment I got Welcome Company (the poltergeist shard) I thought it was too powerful, and nothing ever changed my mind on that. Welcome Company was in my conjure shard slot until the end of the game. That one's the worst, but there are some other weapons and abilities that are similar. It's a single player game, and it doesn't exactly require balance in the way that a multiplayer game does, but if one ability or piece of equipment is overwhelmingly powerful then it takes all the fun out of getting new abilities or pieces of equipment.
Edit: Well thanks for posting the list. And: that's a good list, those all seem like good nerfs to me. I used Rhava Bural for something like half the game and I only eventually gave it up because I was so sick of using it. Not because I had gotten anything better.
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Post by Yän on Jul 19, 2019 12:06:30 GMT -6
gradius Thank you. I find many of those choices to be rather irritating as well. Especially regarding familiars - the dullahammer head was clearly the strongest one but that wasn't because the dullahammer head was too strong but because the others attacked too rarely and too slowly. Buff those instead! I also liked that the dullahammer heads had only 1 HP because otherwise they can get really annoying. If you need to get more than one hit in to kill one of them, it'll be really hard to even get one of them down since they're pretty fast and small. Weird choice. Don't really get why they'd nerf the flying edge. It's not that strong anyway and nerfing it more will make it basically unviable. Changing it so that the dullahammer heads' grade matters less is also sad to see. It was the one thing I had to get past Vepar in NG Nightmare mode. Without this, it would probably have been impossible for me. Nerfing Craftwork makes no sense at all. It's never even been a strong offensive ability anyway. If anything, they should BUFF it to make it useful as a weapon.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 19, 2019 12:21:20 GMT -6
Dev, you need to get a grip and get your priorities right. You should worry about the mess that yet to be fixed instead of trying to "balance" the game. This is not the type of game that requires extreme balancing and this is never ending.
The fact that you pander to those complaints are really disappointing. Show some backbone and stick to your original design. You are making the game worse. At this rate, I don't even know whether we need Bloodstained 2. It puzzles me that you are now working so hard to kill this game and it is like you are doing anything you can to upset the fans, you are not helping anyone with the nerfs. You have no idea what mess you got yourself into.
There are over 100 shards in the game, it is reasonable that some shards are better than others. Trying to balance the game is like trying to chase the shadow. It is pointless.
Don't Fix What Is Not Broken.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 19, 2019 12:33:29 GMT -6
This game is going to have online modes. Unless you guys want a repeat of Harmony of Despair's Somanways, then nerfs are needed.
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 19, 2019 12:35:06 GMT -6
online mode, not pvp mode. Nerfs are not needed
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Post by Yän on Jul 19, 2019 12:35:31 GMT -6
mourningxsun then nerf the online mode separately. Or better yet, buff unviable strats instead of nerfing things people like.
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Post by Yän on Jul 19, 2019 12:49:25 GMT -6
If PVP will be a thing, they'd have to nerf other stuff anyway. The auto aim gun + recycle head + diamond bullets would be everyone's build for PVP weapons while everyone would just spam hellhound at each other. PVP matches COULD be interesting if there was some sort of loadout building in a shop with limited gold and differently priced items and shards before each round. Especially if you can see your opponents shop choices in real time so you can react by picking counters. That way they could just make stronger weapons & shards more expensive for PVP instead of nerfing them for everyone (even single player only players).
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 19, 2019 12:55:19 GMT -6
mourningxsun then nerf the online mode separately. Or better yet, buff unviable strats instead of nerfing things people like. So buff everything to bring it up to par instead of nerfing the 10 things that are clearly broken? Nah.
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Post by Yän on Jul 19, 2019 12:58:32 GMT -6
mourningxsun It's not broken if people are having fun with it. And do you REALLY believe things like craftwork or flying edge are outright broken? That seems really odd to me to be honest.
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Post by Ciel on Jul 19, 2019 13:07:02 GMT -6
I'll just post my thoughts here, which is basically a copy & paste of what I said in one of those Steam forums thread:
To go even further: if we're talking about multiplayer, then these nerfs should be applied only to that mode, and nothing else. Doing it is perfectly possible and I bet it's not that hard even. We also have to consider the reason behind those nerfs. If it's because they are broken and people are only using those builds, then unfortunately this is not going to work. When a build is deemed as OP or broken is nerfed, something else will take its place and players will start to exploit it again. And if we are to nerf this new build, the cycle will repeat itself again ad infinitum. That's just how it works, if you've ever played a MOBA you would known how it is: every patch a build/hero/champion is nerfed and others buffed, and something else is labeled as OP until a new patch comes and nerf it. And the cycle repeats forever. In the end, nerfing because it's OP is ultimately a waste of time and resources, just leave it as is and move on, especially in a single player game.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 19, 2019 13:07:13 GMT -6
mourningxsun It's not broken if people are having fun with it. And do you REALLY believe things like craftwork or flying edge are outright broken? That seems really odd to me to be honest. Those two are odd choices yeah. But seriously, all the go to advice for struggling players is "use welcome company and heretical grinder and nothing else" Like, what did you think would happen? Early game stuff should not carry players all the way to the end.
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Post by Ciel on Jul 19, 2019 13:24:24 GMT -6
mourningxsun It's not broken if people are having fun with it. And do you REALLY believe things like craftwork or flying edge are outright broken? That seems really odd to me to be honest. Like, what did you think would happen? Early game stuff should not carry players all the way to the end. So you're basically saying: let the hardest bosses/enemies shards be the useful ones and objectively superior, while the rest is useless and objectively inferior. The end result of your suggestion is: people are going to only use those shards and equipments you're labeling as "more difficult" to obtain and that's it. I think the system we have now is way more fun because the player can use whatever shard they want without feeling underpowered, even if it's an early game shard. As I said earlier, the game never forces you to change your play style, and that's awesome.
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Post by lai on Jul 19, 2019 13:27:31 GMT -6
Looks at changes.
Huh, RIP speed-runs I guess since both Welcome Company and bunnymorphosis were must-haves. Makes sense since a lot of the shards they nerfed have a bad tendency to kill bosses before the fight even begins.
Craftwork nerf makes a bit of sense? No one used it but I guess it could work as a poor man's Rhava
Increasing Dulla head hp seems out of nowhere. Even at 1 hp they were a pain, but at least a divekick was guaranteed to destroy them.
I don't use any of the nerfed weapons so I have no horse in that race.
The familiar changes are a mixed bag. Nerfing Dullahammer heads makes sense (they trivialize early hard/nightmare) although they should make the other familiars more aggressive first (looking at you silver knight). I'm not sure how to feel about the power redistribution though. On one hand it might make familiar levels actually matter on the other RIP familiars in nightmare.
Overall, I think the nerfs are fine although I don't normally use any of the nerfed shards/weapons so the impact on how I play will be relatively unaffected. I don't agree with nerfing in single player games on principle but most of these changes do make sense in the name of preserving the game's difficulty curve. I can see why they did this but I agree it is unnecessary.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 19, 2019 13:35:51 GMT -6
Like, what did you think would happen? Early game stuff should not carry players all the way to the end. So you're basically saying: let the hardest bosses/enemies shards be the useful ones and objectively superior, while the rest is useless and objectively inferior. The end result of your suggestion is: people are going to only use those shards and equipments you're labeling as "more difficult" to obtain and that's it. I think the system we have now is way more fun because the player can use whatever shard they want without feeling underpowered, even if it's an early game shard. As I said earlier, the game never forces you to change your play style, and that's awesome. Boy you sure pulled a lot of subtext out of your ass there. What I'm saying is: Keep extremely OP stuff out of the early/mid game. It's not hard to get OP in this game despite the nerfs.
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