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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 6, 2019 23:55:50 GMT -6
Spoiler embargo is long gone, and man oh man do I have a lot to say. Count this as the official spoiler warning.
Here's what's up, the game is a solid 9/10 in my book. Love it to death and will be playing it a lot in the future as I do with most 'vanias. The thing is, we *all* know it's a great game, but what about those things that are keeping it from being a 10/10? Well come one come all because I've been drinking, and I have an axe to grind tonight.
1: The game is not "Iga's Biggest Castle." As oft repeated by Angel, the stretch goal referred to the game as a whole, not just the castle. Well here we are, and the game failed to meet that standard. Want to test this yourself? Start a new game. Go through sixteen map squares. Pause the game. Look at your map percentage. It will be at 1.0%. Fill in one more map square. The percentage will still be 1.0%. I don't care enough to fully count out the squares, but this irrefutable proves that the map is between 1600 and 1700 square big. Is that a large game even by Iga's standards? Yes, entirely. I'm not claiming that the game is small by any means. But, SotN nearly hits 1900 map squares total, and PoR is greater than 1700 map squares total. SotN you can sorta write off if you want to not count the inverted castle, but PoR can't so easily be ignored. REGARDLESS. The point is that the game has failed to meet this promise. Plain and simple. And that sucks.
2: I've never really seen one of Iga's game fart out on the end so badly before. The game, pacing, exploration, and areas as a whole were top notch up until the last two. Arguably Oriental Sorcery Lab wasn't so great but that's mostly because it's just a very natural/earthy looking area on top of the castle and it just doesn't fit in. It's designed fine though. Anyways. Den of Behemoths. What the hell. As a concept it could have been a great area, but it really just shat the bed. It's not interesting to explore for starters. It's just big, map percentage wasting open areas thrown at you in a linear fashion. Then they just threw big versions of enemies you already fought at you. Not even interesting or hard enemies, oh no. Instead we just get big bats, cannons and toads. (I have more to say on toads and cannons in a bit) We could have gotten big versions of interesting enemies, like a Demon subtype, but no. Just big bats, toads, and rats. Yet the game can't even keep that simple themeing straight because normal sized Abyssal Guardians can be found here. And to think we were this close to closing out the game without reusing a boss as a common enemy. I'll also throw in that the placement on the map of this area doesn't make a lick of sense.
And then we have Glacial Tomb. The area isn't offensively bad as Den of Behemoths, it's fine even, if just a bit bland. But man, it sure as hell does not feel like a final area at all, and I can't be the only one that feels that way. I get to Dominique and expected her to open up the portal to the final Hell area or something, but no. Final boss and roll credits. I'm actually shocked that three story bosses were crammed into this tiny area. I'm not even mad, it's just fucking weird and left me feeling kind of let down with the ending as a whole.
3: The game just... isn't hard? I can forgive that on normal, that's fine. But Hard and Nightmare? Eesh. Hard mode still falls short of Order of Ecclesia's default difficulty. Nightmare is only "hard" due to the forced level 1 cap. Nightmare loses most of it's difficulty after the first Zangetsu fight, as your options for getting more powerful drastically open up after that point. If you spent the time to grind out the Dullahammer Head familiar in the first area then just disregard what I just said about nightmare, as it becomes trivially easy if you do that. The biggest reason for this is that enemy health was not properly adjusted for higher difficulties. If you know what you're doing (and you will if you have the desire to do a fresh nightmare mode file), then your DPS will be high, and enemies will die extremely fast. I was afraid of this happening for actual years at this point, and lo and behold, it happened. Want an example of an extreme difficulty mode managing to stay difficult the whole way through? Castlevania Curse of Darkness's Crazy mode. Play it, love it, die to the first enemy a dozen times.
4: Boss Rush. What the actual fuck happened here. I have never, ever seen a developer manage to mangle a boss rush mode ever, let alone to the extent it was done here. It's missing like what, half the bosses? Including the more iconic ones like Bloodless. On top of having half of the bosses left out, the remaining ones were divided into two separate courses for some inexplicable reason, meaning that "boss rush" has you fighting a quarter of the bosses at a time. The only way to to boss rush is by importing a preexisting and geared character, so if it was split into two courses to make it "easier" then that's entirely pointless. Your level is set to 30 as well for some reason, although that doesn't make a difference at all. And to top it off, the rewards are garbage. Wow you get one of those retro coins for a backer weapon that you can obtain with ease in the regular game, instead of something unique or interesting like every single other one of Iga's games did. What a waste. I really hope this doesn't set the standard for the rest of the """free DLCs"""
5: Reskinned enemies. Hooooooooly shit. Wasn't the whole point of moving away from sprites was that it would make it easier to create new and unique assets? What happened here? This is the most reskin heavy game that Iga's made by far. If you're playing in the intended order, want to know the last time you see a unique enemy model? Not counting bosses? Hidden Desert with the Living Fossil. Hidden Fucking Desert. Enjoy the remaining third of your game because it's reskins all the way down. Not only that, but for reasons beyond me, the most boring enemies imaginable were the ones used for half the game. Do you like Toads? Well there's five different types. Like Cannons? Also five different types that nobody even had the decency to meaningfully recolor. Fairies? Demons? Three of them each. Knights? I'm not even going to bother to count. Oh, can't forget the Elementals either. This game is almost at Circle of the Moon's level of nonsense when it comes to this. What mostly irks me is that none of the more interesting enemies were reused. How about a reskinned Tamako-Death blasting some new jams? Nope. But enjoy your five different toads.
6: Not really an issue, but more of a general preference, but couldn't we have gotten some more... interesting quests? PoR and OoE nailed it, so what's with the endless fetch and kill quests?
7: No optional areas. The 8-bit one doesn't count. I'm not exactly a huge fan of metroidvainas where the main story is a grand tour of every area. It's not really an exploration game if you end up everywhere by default. I can get over that if there's some big, fun, end game challenge area. OoE had that as did PoR. Every one of Iga's games barring Dawn of Sorrow had optional areas. So again, disappointment. Doubly so as you end up extremely overpowered towards the end of the game with nothing to really test yourself on. Bael is a joke of an end boss.
Anyways all my bitching comes from a place of love. I swear guys.
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Post by anonthemouse on Jul 7, 2019 0:29:16 GMT -6
I kind of agree on #1 and #2, but not fully. #3 and #4 I don't agree with at all. #5... Well, I have no problem with reskins. That's always been a thing in Igavania. It's a part of the formula. It's expected. On the other hand, as I pointed out in my own post, Ritual of the Night has less enemy variety than Symphony of the Night. It barely has more than the portable games. That makes me lean more toward agreement on the #1 front. Having 128 enemy types when your first outing had 146. For that matter, Portrait of Ruin had 155, and that makes the lack of variety feel even worse. As for #6, I have no opinion.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jul 7, 2019 1:37:31 GMT -6
With all those problems the game seems hardly a 9/10 to you lol
Anyways I've got issues with the game which is no more than a 7/10 to me but I already exposed them somewhere else. Most notably, the non-existent balancing and plethora of OP options at various points in the game, the graphics and animations which in the end I didn't like, the way too many callbacks to Symphony of the Night as if IGA's games never evolved past it (which by the way they did), the crafting system that I find to be a little too full of stuff meaning that it's too hard too often to craft good stuff unless you really grind for the materials, the abysmal quests which are just offensively bad. I also didn't like how they incorporated backers' content like the pets (no offense to those who backed for them or the portraits). I'd pick Harmony of Dissonance or the PS2 'vanias over Bloodstained any day, I just hope that its success may lead to a vastly improved sequel, but I'm not too excited about it seeing as most people seemed to like this while I saw pretty much a SotN 1.5 with the Soul System slapped on and that's not what I personally wanted. Just my 2 cents though.
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Post by Yän on Jul 7, 2019 5:28:01 GMT -6
About the biggest castle thing, keep in mind that you're dealing with HD screens here so you're getting more castle per map square. Also, in PoR there was significantly more copy/paste than in Bloodstained when it comes to the maps so I'm not sure I'd fully count that. Bigger =/= Better... About the difficulty, yeah I haven't played hard mode yet but making it easier was a concious decision and there are still people who struggle to even play through the game on normal difficulty so I don't know... Maybe hard mode should be harder? I'll have to play to find out. I agree that a boss rush mode should contain all bosses. But the retro coins seem like a decent reward to me. I found them really hard to acquire in the main game since they drop almost nowhere and are pretty expensive. I don't mind the reskins that much. I'm gonna guess that Tamako-Death was a backer enemy (just a guess). Most reskinned enemies also have different behavior, changed models, different attack patterns and types so it's mostly fine by me. It's always been a thing and I actually like seeing some of those enemies evolve. It's not really less expensive to make a completely unique enemy with new animations and models etc. in 3D than it is in 2D as far as I know. Kind of depends on the people doing the work. On the quests, I fully agree, they're kind of poor, creatively and back in the day, I've made a thread about it (when we played the beta) and how to improve them. Sad that the system was never improved and is just kind of a boring thing to do on the side now. Just an added reason to grind stuff. No cool stories, no creative and new things to do and discover, no unique quests... Oh well, hope they're better in the sequel. Why does the 8-bit area not count? Other than that I agree, would be great to have some super difficult special area in there somewhere. If your bitching comes from a place of love, your choice of words doesn't make it seem so. There are more friendly ways to express your thoughts (although I agree with quite a few of them). No offense
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Post by EbonAnimus on Jul 7, 2019 6:39:32 GMT -6
Damn, have to say i´m thinking nearly the same.. The game is really cool, the only game that shackled me for weeks on my pc since years, but it also lacks a lot that was promised and some things i hoped for..
1.+2.+5. I totally agree with you, this isn´t Iga´s biggest castle and anyone should complain about this, 4 years instead of 2 and there´s no second castle/secret area to reach with the last shard?! Thats kinda lame, they definitely are knowing what everyone expected from this.. I don´t mind reskinned Enemy´s(in a second castle..), but working with different sizes and skins so much in a small place like this kinda suck, sadly a lot of the 72 demons of solomon are also missing-.-
3. I really hoped for nightmare to be a nightmare but it is made for casuals-.- Where´s our endgame? a difficulty made to challenge lvl 99 ones to their blood and tears and no hp and mp cap at some strange numbers?! need a difficulty that leads under the hardest circumstances to perfection(hp9999,mp9999 AND needed) in the end, but there isn´t..
4. The boss rush is lame too, need to have ALL bosses of the game after another for being at least a little difficult and need exclusive rewards to craft stuff that isn´t in the story, but for what, in the end we still have no place for perfection here..
6. Kill quests are the best option for Igavania in my opinion^^
7. Think 8 bit nightmare was cool but hoped for a second castle instead;)
this game had with paypal in addition around 6 million dollars and 4 years development instead of 2.. hoped that staggered content release was off the table but wasn´t.. my pc physical comes like the dlc in a far future thanks to some dorky GOG´s..(nothing in my hands and a new eternity to wait) no backer exclusives thanks to a publisher we didn´t backed for.. and a sad end for backers with platforms that vanished near the end of an eternity..
that should have been done a lot more friendly for the guys who made the game possible..
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Post by aoanla on Jul 7, 2019 7:20:39 GMT -6
About the difficulty, yeah I haven't played hard mode yet but making it easier was a concious decision and there are still people who struggle to even play through the game on normal difficulty so I don't know... Maybe hard mode should be harder? I'll have to play to find out. As one of those people struggling with the game on normal, I'd have no problem with hard (or nightmare) being made harder for those who want a challenge. (It would also help immensely if the harder difficulties had been unlocked from the start - from reading threads, it seems that at least part of the problem is that unlocking-on-completion encourages people to try Hard or Nightmare as NG+... which is much easier than starting from zero.)
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Post by Cale on Jul 7, 2019 8:24:51 GMT -6
All points that I agree with, was going to do an in-depth review when I got the time, but this sums it up nicely. The last half of the game felt incredibly rushed and copy/pasted. The castle itself looks very bland and early CGI days. You get glimpses of potential only for the game to drop something just as you start it. A few mechanics are introduced only to be a one time event.
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Post by iggyg85 on Jul 7, 2019 11:18:07 GMT -6
I can agree with at least 90% of what you said to varying degrees. I do kinda wish that the difficulty modes were harder especially with NG+, mainly because I find the self-control difficult to NERF myself when there are better options for my build. Would it be safe to say that most that are having issues didn’t play many platforming games on NES, SEGA, or SNES? As far as endings go, you can get the bad ending with only like half of the map uncovered making the rest optional if you are fine with this. Enemies wise, the reskins didn’t bother me too much since I’ve been playing games as far back as NES and just accept it, but adding more variety would have been nice. As far as the map size goes, no opinion as the only Igavania (Castlevania type) I really played was SotN because I didn’t have portable Nintendo systems growing up (and I never played SotN til PS3 release), but with fewer rooms as you have stated doesn’t necessarily mean smaller as others have pointed out with aspect ratio of the screens from early era til now making a single room in this game larger than a single room in the older gen. The split up boss rush mode is disappointing (but falls under free DLC as well so doesn’t factor in my score). The quest are indeed lame. Yet with all of this I still give it a 9/10 as well. I am looking forward to the free DLCs even if they come off half-baked or easy as well as Igas Backpack finally hitting PS4.
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Post by aoanla on Jul 7, 2019 11:25:43 GMT -6
I do kinda wish that the difficulty modes were harder especially with NG+, mainly because I find the self-control difficult to NERF myself when there are better options for my build. Would it be safe to say that most that are having issues didn’t play many platforming games on NES, SEGA, or SNES? I played platformers in the mid-80s and late 90s - but not on consoles, for the most part. (And, yes, I was terrible at them back then, too.) Again: I don't think there's a reason why we both can't be happy - an "easy" mode with just some damage adjustments from Normal [and maybe those techniques made actually easy enough to do], and then Hard and Nightmare made harder at your end of the challenge scale. Even better, would have been a "custom difficulty" mode where you could toggle on additional limiters - maybe capping your max shard rank and grade as well as max level, giving enemies even more hit point boosts relative to Hard, and so on - if you want them.
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Post by iggyg85 on Jul 7, 2019 11:35:02 GMT -6
I do kinda wish that the difficulty modes were harder especially with NG+, mainly because I find the self-control difficult to NERF myself when there are better options for my build. Would it be safe to say that most that are having issues didn’t play many platforming games on NES, SEGA, or SNES? I played platformers in the mid-80s and late 90s - but not on consoles, for the most part. (And, yes, I was terrible at them back then, too.) Again: I don't think there's a reason why we both can't be happy - an "easy" mode with just some damage adjustments from Normal [and maybe those techniques made actually easy enough to do], and then Hard and Nightmare made harder at your end of the challenge scale. Even better, would have been a "custom difficulty" mode where you could toggle on additional limiters - maybe capping your max shard rank and grade as well as max level, giving enemies even more hit point boosts relative to Hard, and so on - if you want them. I agree entirely that there should be softer, accessible modes for the casual gamer to enjoy, but hard/nightmare are anything but to seasoned gamers of the genre. TBH I played my first 3 play throughs as grade 1 on shards since I kept selling them. I didn’t even know that holding more buffed up the moveset. I also failed on those older games a lot, lol. To this day I’ve never beaten a Mega Man besides X on snes. Always had a habit of jumping to soon with the instant death pitfalls.
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Post by Nezuto on Jul 7, 2019 11:59:00 GMT -6
I have to say that I kinda agree, no matter how much I may like or enjoy the game. As for the difficulty, wonder if they'd ever be able to implement an Adaptable Difficulty system? The better you play, the more punishing it becomes, while the opposite holds true if you happen to be getting your ass handed to you already.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 7, 2019 12:07:56 GMT -6
About the biggest castle thing, keep in mind that you're dealing with HD screens here so you're getting more castle per map square. Also, in PoR there was significantly more copy/paste than in Bloodstained when it comes to the maps so I'm not sure I'd fully count that. Bigger =/= Better... ..... Why does the 8-bit area not count? Other than that I agree, would be great to have some super difficult special area in there somewhere. ..... If your bitching comes from a place of love, your choice of words doesn't make it seem so. There are more friendly ways to express your thoughts (although I agree with quite a few of them). No offense 1: I understand the relative screen size as well as the lack of reskinned areas if we pretend that Den of Behemoths doesn't exist, but it still fundamentally isn't the biggest castle. They should have thrown in some reskinned areas. Invert the castle. Anything. I don't think a lot of people would have minded that if it didn't affect the size of the main castle.
2: It's separate from the rest of the game, and if you put it on the map, it would probably be a whole six screens long. If you want to count it as a genuine, full blown optional challenge area then go ahead, but that's some real slim pickings compared to the likes of Nest of Evil, Tower of Eternity/Evermore, and Large Cavern. Even the woefully small Underground Cemetery in AoS had more to it. Especially considering that 8-bit nightmare isn't even noticeably more difficult than other end game areas.
3: It gets the point across easier and I just finished downing a bomber to celebrate my whole one day off a week. No offense taken though
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Post by alucart on Jul 7, 2019 20:31:26 GMT -6
Kind of agree a little bit with #2 but doesn't bother me too much.
What does bother me the most out of all is #4 and I agree with it. At first I thought maybe Bloodless wasn't included because she was an optional boss fight then realized you actually do need to beat her to progress the game. Why an important boss like her was not included in boss rush is weird. I don't know if it's possible but I hope in the future they can somehow update the boss rush with every single boss fight we encounter within the game including the optional/secret ones.
Now that I think about it, I do feel a little bit nervous about the Boss Revenge mode now. I hope that one also includes every boss (optional/secret). Honestly I just really want to play as O.D. in some way or another. Whether it be as a playable character DLC or in Boss revenge. Something, anything..that allows us to play as him.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 7, 2019 21:10:19 GMT -6
Re: the size of the game mourningxsun , you set yourself up with unrealistic expectations (as I'd pointed out before in the discord etc way back when we were talking about it before the game came out) with your math-theory that you thought the game was 2x the size of SotN + inverted, so that being 3600 squares. That was never going to happen, it's crazy. The game is about 1600 squares, yes, but those are 16:9 squares and not the old games' 4:3 ones. They can't be reckoned by the same measurement because that's more screen space per each square (now wide rectangles instead of squares, more like it). I know you know this, and iirc you had some kind of explanation that somehow they ended up being the same anyway and it didn't matter, but still the game is bigger because of this. It's just the same as the illusion that the game feels "slower" even if it is roughly the same speed as SotN - this is because Miriam is covering "less distance" because there's more screen you're seeing, not because she's actually moving slower. Games in old 4:3 low resolutions are smaller, and all rooms are basically much closer to squares. RotN rooms are larger rectangles. Beyond that, I can tell you that Angel and the rest of the team agonized over measuring this stuff to make sure this was right re: size. Angel-Corlux About the part re: difficulty, I don't buy for a second that level 1 on hard mode is easier than Order of Ecclesia's normal. There's no way. You generally die in two hits, and Vepar is especially rough from what I've heard. I was quite satisfied with the difficulty on Normal, myself, since I had to eat a good bit of food if I wanted to beat something on the first try. Some bosses actually did require me to do some re-fights, but not a lot, and that's fine - that's not what these games are about to me, anyway. Hard and Nightmare are there for people who want more of that challenge, though, and I think OoE is certainly tougher than Normal RotN, but we were told to expect that and it's what we got - just as with the map (the stated goal for the map was 1600 or more). The other things I just don't have as much to say about or didn't bother me, even if I could see them being issues for people. Overall, though, what I think happened here is you created some expectations beyond what they clearly said they were doing, man. Map's big enough to clear their goal, and the game is actually harder than the "around SotN" bar they had set.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 7, 2019 21:36:48 GMT -6
Re: the size of the game mourningxsun , you set yourself up with unrealistic expectations (as I'd pointed out before in the discord etc way back when we were talking about it before the game came out) with your math-theory that you thought the game was 2x the size of SotN + inverted, so that being 3600 squares. That was never going to happen, it's crazy. The game is about 1600 squares, yes, but those are 16:9 squares and not the old games' 4:3 ones. They can't be reckoned by the same measurement because that's more screen space per each square (now wide rectangles instead of squares, more like it). I know you know this, and iirc you had some kind of explanation that somehow they ended up being the same anyway and it didn't matter, but still the game is bigger because of this. It's just the same as the illusion that the game feels "slower" even if it is roughly the same speed as SotN - this is because Miriam is covering "less distance" because there's more screen you're seeing, not because she's actually moving slower. Games in old 4:3 low resolutions are smaller, and all rooms are basically much closer to squares. RotN rooms are larger rectangles. Beyond that, I can tell you that Angel and the rest of the team agonized over measuring this stuff to make sure this was right re: size. Angel-Corlux About the part re: difficulty, I don't buy for a second that level 1 on hard mode is easier than Order of Ecclesia's normal. There's no way. You generally die in two hits, and Vepar is especially rough from what I've heard. I was quite satisfied with the difficulty on Normal, myself, since I had to eat a good bit of food if I wanted to beat something on the first try. Some bosses actually did require me to do some re-fights, but not a lot, and that's fine - that's not what these games are about to me, anyway. Hard and Nightmare are there for people who want more of that challenge, though, and I think OoE is certainly tougher than Normal RotN, but we were told to expect that and it's what we got - just as with the map (the stated goal for the map was 1600 or more). The other things I just don't have as much to say about or didn't bother me, even if I could see them being issues for people. Overall, though, what I think happened here is you created some expectations beyond what they clearly said they were doing, man. Map's big enough to clear their goal, and the game is actually harder than the "around SotN" bar they had set. The whole napkin math thing was just for fun, wasn't really supposed to be an accurate prediction. Plus one of those guesses was around 1700 anyways.
But yeah, regarding the whole 16:9 vs. 4:3 ration aspects. Not buying it. Sorry but you can't just redefine the universally accepted way of measuring the size of these games to technically meet a goal. Screen sizes don't matter, room counts do. Aspect ratios have literally never ever been a part of the conversation regarding game size except for right now when the defense forces come parading out. Besides that, the map is filled with all sorts of "treats" like Valac's boss room eating up over 30 of those rooms, and the first big room of Den of Behemoths being a whole 80 room squares of literally nothing. Even if I did feel like ceding on this point, I'd still argue that the game wastes a whole lot of map percent on large empty rooms.
If you personally haven't played a fresh level one file on hard, then you're not really in a position to gauge my take on it. It starts out challenging enough, but similar to nightmare mode the difficulty just goes away after Zangetsu. I once again reiterate that the inclusion of Dullahammer heads on the ship at the start in higher difficulties was a bad move. Anybody who spends the fifteen minutes needed to get and level up the familiar can basically play the game on autopilot regardless of difficulty. The reason why the higher difficulties fail to be difficult is that enemy HP is not properly scaled up compared to normal mode. After the first 20% of the game you're just a glass cannon slapping other glass cannons. It's not interesting, nor is it meaningfully challenging. Curse of Darkness did it right, Bloodstained didn't. I argue that normal OoE is harder than hard mode bloodstained because you'll never hit a point where you can just slap away enemies before they can attack in OoE. Also Blackmore is a boss harder than anything Bloodstained has to offer by far.
Not really a fan of your weird psychoanalysis either. The game set clear goals and did not meet some. When the game has been in development for four years, I'm not really interested in hearing how they "technically made the biggest castle if you account for aspect ratios" or other nonsense like that. It's a poor excuse. Has nothing to do with expectations other than what was advertised. Castle isn't the biggest, nightmare isn't a nightmare. Discussions outside of official hugboxy channels have plenty of people with similar views.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 7, 2019 21:50:33 GMT -6
Re: the size of the game mourningxsun , you set yourself up with unrealistic expectations (as I'd pointed out before in the discord etc way back when we were talking about it before the game came out) with your math-theory that you thought the game was 2x the size of SotN + inverted, so that being 3600 squares. That was never going to happen, it's crazy. The game is about 1600 squares, yes, but those are 16:9 squares and not the old games' 4:3 ones. The whole napkin math thing was just for fun, wasn't really supposed to be an accurate prediction. Plus one of those guesses was around 1700 anyways. But yeah, regarding the whole 16:9 vs. 4:3 ration aspects. Not buying it. Sorry but you can't just redefine the universally accepted way of measuring the size of these games to technically meet a goal. Screen sizes don't matter, room counts do.
So they could have made the room blips squares again instead of the rectangles arbitrarily and thus had a much higher number of them and then you would have been satisfied? That would be cheap and cheesy. The method of counting the units is the same, but the units are bigger. Here's an easy example I think: This ^ is clearly bigger and more space than this: The latter can't fill out the full of the screen as it is of course, obviously, so those borders are there. You'd need quite a bit more space/pixels to make that happen or a gross stretching, so it's shrunk down. A RotN rectangle is something like 1.3 of a previous Iga game's square. Yes, they could have arbitrarily counted them in squares again to artificially sate a want for a higher, inflated number, but imo that's silly. On the difficulty, I think I can speak on it, yes. Even on NG+ for hard, stage hazards to my ridiculous level 50 character do a bit over 400 damage. I would imagine that and many other situations would be instant death to a NG character on the difficulty, and OoE has very few instances I can remember of ~2 hits being the end of Shanoa. I don't know how it ramps up, so I can't speak for the whole of RotN hard, but I know that even if I'm careless with a ridiculously strong NG+ character I can still bite it. That being said, again difficulty/being harder than OoE was not an intent or expectation that was had.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 7, 2019 22:03:26 GMT -6
So they could have made the room blips squares again instead of the rectangles arbitrarily and thus had a much higher number of them and then you would have been satisfied? That would be cheap and cheesy. The method of counting the units is the same, but the units are bigger. Here's an easy example I think: The latter of course can't fill out the full of the screen as it is of course, obviously, so those borders are there. You'd need quite a bit more space/pixels to make that happen or a gross stretching, so it's shrunk down. A RotN rectangle is something like 1.3 of a previous Iga game's square. Yes, they could have arbitrarily counted them in squares again to artificially sate a want for a higher, inflated number, but imo that's silly. On the difficulty, I think I can speak on it, yes. Even on NG+ for hard, stage hazards to my ridiculous level 50 character do a bit over 400 damage. I would imagine that and many other situations would be instant death to a NG character on the difficult, and OoE has very few instances I can remember of ~2 hits being the end of Shanoa. I don't know how it ramps up, so I can't speak for the whole of RotN hard, but I know that even if I'm careless with a ridiculously strong NG+ character I can still bite it. That being said, again difficulty/being harder than OoE was not an intent or expectation that was had. Yup, if they made it squares arbitrarily then I would have no complaints about map size as it would end up being somewhere in the region of lower 2000's. Like I said, that's how the size of these games are measured. The only reason aspect ratio is part of the conversation suddenly is to try and find some sort of loophole. Since as things stand, the goal of "Iga's Biggest Castle" was not met unless you you start bringing in screen sizes. But a better question is, do screen sizes matter even? I find your use of save rooms as an example to be fitting. In both games they serve the same purpose, saving the game. Nothing else in there. Nothing to explore. Does one save room being 30% longer than the other make it more valuable? Does it make the game bigger? Of course not, that's ridiculous. That's why the games are measured by their room sizes and not how "big" the screen is. Circle of the Moon has a notoriously small player character, while Harmony of Dissonance has a slightly larger one comapred to later games. The result is that the rooms are bigger and smaller comparatively, but nobody on earth brings that into a discussion on how large the games are.
Stage hazards do a flat 30% of your health on hard/nightmare. No such thing as instant death from them. Again, you don't have a horse in this race unless you've experienced it, and you're talking out of your butt regarding it right now.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 7, 2019 22:17:36 GMT -6
It's just that what you're saying imo contradicts itself - it should be about the game being bigger, yes, and bigger in actuality rather than the # of units. The save room is 30% bigger, yeah, and so are all the other rooms in the castle - those which do count for more space you're exploring. I definitely didn't expect you'd agree with making the unit of measurement smaller like it used to be to fix the whole thing.
My bad on the spikes, apparently I just didn't notice how much damage they did before or it didn't happen often enough because there were less monsters around to potentially knock me into them etc. I'll be curious to find out if you're right about RotN hard being easier than OoE, because I won't believe that until I see it.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 7, 2019 22:26:37 GMT -6
It's just that what you're saying imo contradicts itself - it should be about the game being bigger, yes, and bigger in actuality rather than the # of units. The save room is 30% bigger, yeah, and so are all the other rooms in the castle - those which do count for more space you're exploring. I definitely didn't expect you'd agree with making the unit of measurement smaller like it used to be to fix the whole thing. My bad on the spikes, apparently I just didn't notice how much damage they did before or it didn't happen often enough because there were less monsters around to potentially knock me into them etc. I'll be curious to find out if you're right about RotN hard being easier than OoE, because I won't believe that until I see it. Why wouldn't I? Again, the universally accepted way to measure these games for the last two decades is to count out map squares. More squares = bigger game. It's pretty straightforward. The conversation needn't be muddied with aspect ratios.
The difficulty is fully dependent on how much you're taking advantage of the systems. I'd argue that Bloodstained Hard is likely harder than OoE on normal from an enemy statistic standpoint, but Bloodstained offers a lot more ways to get more powerful in meaningful ways. So if you're making all the food, getting the best weapon of the type you're using as soon as possible, leveling up your shards, etc. then Bloodstained is way way way easier. The example of grinding out a max grade familiar in the first area in twenty minutes on hard/nightmare exemplifies it perfectly. Even just getting the familiar and not leveling it at all still gives you a huge advantage at that point in the game.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 7, 2019 23:07:06 GMT -6
Searching Discord is a pain in the butt, but I know 4:3 vs 16:9 was brought up before (and more than this). I tried to find our previous conversation about this and I have no idea where that is. Besides the map's case, it came up a lot in reference to Miriam's speed. A similar argument to this would be if "it doesn't matter if she's moving the same speed, it should be faster to dispel the illusion of slower movement", just as using squares instead of RotN's rectangles would dispel the illusion of a smaller map. Perception *can* be reality here, yeah, but only when you're choosing to look at it as smaller based on an outdated measurement. Your difficulty point illustrates a key difference between me and other players - I don't grind like that. If something is difficult, I try to either become more efficient with using what I have or exploit the AI in some way at most, but not ever power myself up to make the threat negligible. The capacity for doing that isn't usually factored into how I look at how hard something else, because I'll usually not see that side of it. I'm glad that's there for many other players, though, and it's part of why I don't consider difficulty too terribly important of a consideration in these games. It's subjective that way. The "hardest" thing to me would be making myself spend 20 hours powering up.
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