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Post by void2258 on Jul 2, 2019 20:38:40 GMT -6
There are a number of hints throughout the game that more content was originally planned
Focalor: Every character in Curse of the Moon was used except the second boss, Focalor. Focalor is a watery boss, and has a move that looks just like Aqua Stream. It's a pretty good bet that you were supposed to get Aqua Stream from him instead of the Deep Seama randomly dropping it. It's the only required shard that doesn't come from the boss, and also the Waterway is the only area with no boss.
Single appearance enemies: There are several enemies who appear exactly once (not including bosses and Kune Kune). It makes no sense to make extra enemies, as that would add time to the project, so these were almost certainly intended to appear elsewhere.
Separated Ending areas: It's very weird for Den of Behemoths and Glacial Tomb to be segmented off the way they are. It's clear that there were meant to be more areas connecting them to the rest of the castle, but they were cut. Probably there was meant to be one or more areas past the Dragon Towers or the Secret sorcery lab (which itself seems to have been cut back as it is oddly linear and dead ended). As it is the current layout seems like they are rushing to the end after Gebel, as the convenient portal lets them handwave around the final two areas not fitting in anywhere.
The Race: The race for the accelerator shard being in the Den of Behemoths makes no sense. The entire area is giant EXCEPT for this one room. Also, you'll note that the room looks completely different from the rest of the Den, appearing to be in completely different part of the castle. Note the black and blue stone motif that is completely different from the rest of the area. It was clearly transplanted, tileset included, from an incomplete area.
Secret Sorcery Lab: This area is an appendix. It is completely linear and dead ends with no connection to other areas other than a teleport room. It was clearly put together in a rush just to have something on the other end of the train. It doesn't even cleanly connect to the train, as you are unable to go back.
What do you think? Are there omitted areas? Should they put back in the lost areas?
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Post by Rixuel on Jul 2, 2019 21:32:13 GMT -6
I didn't feel the castle was big enough. I hope there will be content from the free DLCs that will make us say, "damn that castle is really huge". lol. Maybe there are other areas they haven't finished yet. In SotN, the map doesn't end at 100%, it goes over 100% completion.
My intuition said Bloodstained was going to be delayed again, but they decided not to because they already took 4 years and if they delayed again, it would look bad. So instead, they released Bloodstained and mentioned 13 free DLCs which is a cleaver move imo. That's just my intuition, maybe I'm totally wrong thinking that way.
If you play other IGA castlevania games, notice there are at least 3 alternated endings, but Bloodstained only has 2 so far. So, I feel there is something missing and the current "good" ending was somehow bittersweet for me.
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Post by rozen on Jul 3, 2019 0:48:53 GMT -6
Rather than unfinished, it feels that it was cut down mid development. gremory boss fight placement feels like it was tucked there , and they certainly startedreusing the caves assets with varying results, overall, i think that the fire and ice caverns were very dull looking areas that probably were put together as a mean of quickly expanding the map. and yes, Focalor is clearly cut. the underwater sections also felt like they were just finished so they were there. Also the story kinda just crumbles after gebel's fight because it feels that we are needing to close and tie plotholes. I really liked alfred backstory, and i started suspecting that the dairies written weren't his when johannes said that he opposed to the ritual, that being said, his actual story is just... ugh... and when there is a chance to pick up, he gets wounded off camera and then dies. Similar with gebel, when there was a chance to pick up his story to an interesting level, nope, he is ded.Also... Dominique reasons for the heel turn are... well.. meh, and what about her fathers? Alfred seemed to mention that there was something with her fathers (i even suspected that the diary was actually from one of dominique's parents instead) but her whole "god doesn't exist let's summon demons instead" reasonings feels flat. I really wish they would add focalor, tweak the boring areas to a level similar to the good areas (I LOVE the cathedral, library and the gardens) fix the castle progression and if at least they don't fix the story... give us a way of at least save gebel, zengetsu, alfred... or someone :/ but i don't think it gonna happen sadly That being said.. i enjoyed the game a lot. so thats also why i wish they would fix and polish teh parts that werent as polished as teh rest of teh game which i loved.
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Post by Starsmith on Jul 3, 2019 11:34:25 GMT -6
If you play other IGA castlevania games, notice there are at least 3 alternated endings, but Bloodstained only has 2 so far. So, I feel there is something missing and the current "good" ending was somehow bittersweet for me. There is a third ending. There are two different endings to defeating Gebel--I'm not sure what the determining factor is, just that when I got the first version of it it was long, long before getting the Zangetsuto was possible.
Anyway, I did feel like the Den of Behemoths was a bit empty. That it was separate doesn't seem out of place; as I recall, the last area in Aria of Sorrow was also separated and had a pretty similar shape. I liked the icy caverns as a reference to the Ninth Circle of Hell, what with it being full of frozen demons, but I could see it feeling a little old after a water area, a fire area, and a sand area.
Valefar was incongruously placed. But really, at no point in the game did I ever stop thinking to myself how much I was enjoying it, so while it wasn't perfect, it certainly hit all the notes I was looking for
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Post by rav4ishing on Jul 3, 2019 11:46:45 GMT -6
... and they certainly startedreusing the caves assets with varying results, overall, i think that the fire and ice caverns were very dull looking areas that probably were put together as a mean of quickly expanding the map.... Did you ever play Chasm? It felt like the Chasm team designed the fire and ice caverns. Although it didn't bother me as much because the game-play is what mostly draws me to this game. I'm on my second play through and I'm not bored at all. I had no desire whatsoever to play Chasm a second time after I finished it.
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Post by rav4ishing on Jul 3, 2019 12:21:41 GMT -6
I didn't feel the castle was big enough. I hope there will be content from the free DLCs that will make us say, "damn that castle is really huge". lol. Maybe there are other areas they haven't finished yet. In SotN, the map doesn't end at 100%, it goes over 100% completion. The 100% completion is relative to how they calculate it. PoR was 1000%. To be quite honest, while it seemed most people felt the reverse castle in SOTN was clever, I find the castle very annoy to navigate.
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Post by lai on Jul 3, 2019 12:22:45 GMT -6
I wouldn't go as far as to say incomplete (90 hours in and still not bored) but I do agree that there are signs of cut content. I agree about Focalor, it just lines up way too cleanly. One-off mooks aren't all that uncommon in IGAvania's pretty sure OOE had enemies that were restricted to post-game areas and there is one that comes to mind that only shows up in one room (I forgot the name though). I also think there was meant to be a third-endgame area between the den of behemoths and glacial tomb but not for the same reasons you suggest, sharp transitions are things IGA has done before. My current theory is that it was a gambling themed area where you would fight Valefar while the Den would have its own boss. This is supported by some early info that bloodstained was supposed to have gambling themes which don't exist in the final game outside of Valefar and a backer room (which doesn't count). The race is fine imo. It very much feels like something they designed so it could be put just about anywhere. Although if you combine it with my theory about the third end area then chances are it would be there as a sort of analogue to real-life race betting. I do agree that Secret Sorcery lab is something that was made after the train. Like they knew they wanted to do the train but didn't really think of what to do after it, maybe in the initial plan it was meant or it to take you to the Den of Behemoths or something. I don't think they'll re-add the cut areas and if they do add no areas they way to get to them will be the same as the Gremory portal/8-bit nightmare rather than as a part of the castle. Ok I need to get this down, so my current theory on the initial order plan: Everything up to Valac is the same as the original plan. Instead of Valac giving silver bromide, the secret sorcery lab (or its replacement) would be to the right of the towers Then everything is the same till Gebel except you get aqua jet from Focalor after draining the blood fountain. Instead of slashing the moon you would instead take the train to the final section which would be a gambling area, Den of behemoths, and finally the glacial tomb (albeit expanded) Unfortunately this cuts out the photo ID thing (which I like quite a bit) since I believe Dominque is meant to be gone after the Gebel fight (instead of dissapearing after the Alfred cutscene). It also means that OD would be completely missable. EDIT 2: Just read the backer artbook and Den of Behemoths was meant to be the gambler area but I guess time restraints turned it into the giant garden we got.
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Post by Aztec on Jul 3, 2019 13:42:08 GMT -6
The map is objectively the biggest Iga has ever had in a game, what’s this bullshit about the map not feeling “big”? And that’s just counting rooms but each of Bloodstained’s rooms is a time least 30% bigger than a SotN room because of the higher resolution and change from 4:3 to 16:9.
And it’s took me 28 hours on my first run to complete the game with a 100% map and I still have a ton of things to do and trophies to unlock so I don’t buy that it feels incomplete.
This game is NOT without criticism but I’ll be damned if one of those is because the map felts small or the game incomplete. Fuck that.
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Post by rav4ishing on Jul 3, 2019 13:55:58 GMT -6
I wouldn't go as far as to say incomplete (90 hours in and still not bored) but I do agree that there are signs of cut content. I agree about Focalor, it just lines up way too cleanly. One-off mooks aren't all that uncommon in IGAvania's pretty sure OOE had enemies that were restricted to post-game areas and there is one that comes to mind that only shows up in one room (I forgot the name though). I also think there was meant to be a third-endgame area between the den of behemoths and glacial tomb but not for the same reasons you suggest, sharp transitions are things IGA has done before. My current theory is that it was a gambling themed area where you would fight Valefar while the Den would have its own boss. This is supported by some early info that bloodstained was supposed to have gambling themes which don't exist in the final game outside of Valefar and a backer room (which doesn't count). The race is fine imo. It very much feels like something they designed so it could be put just about anywhere. Although if you combine it with my theory about the third end area then chances are it would be there as a sort of analogue to real-life race betting. I do agree that Secret Sorcery lab is something that was made after the train. Like they knew they wanted to do the train but didn't really think of what to do after it, maybe in the initial plan it was meant or it to take you to the Den of Behemoths or something. I don't think they'll re-add the cut areas and if they do add no areas they way to get to them will be the same as the Gremory portal/8-bit nightmare rather than as a part of the castle. Ok I need to get this down, so my current theory on the initial order plan: Everything up to Valac is the same as the original plan. Instead of Valac giving silver bromide, the secret sorcery lab (or its replacement) would be to the right of the towers Then everything is the same till Gebel except you get aqua jet from Focalor after draining the blood fountain. Instead of slashing the moon you would instead take the train to the final section which would be a gambling area, Den of behemoths, and finally the glacial tomb (albeit expanded) Unfortunately this cuts out the photo ID thing (which I like quite a bit) since I believe Dominque is meant to be gone after the Gebel fight (instead of dissapearing after the Alfred cutscene). It also means that OD would be completely missable. I agree, to say the game is incomplete (excluding Switch owners, they have it tough right now) is not accurate. Each gamer will have their own take on what a perfect and complete version of this game would feel like, so it's a discussion that will never end. I think you nailed it when you said you're 90 hours in and still not bored. That's a sign of a game on the right track. We really won't know how this game holds up until years later after development has completely ended. Right now it's still all new to us, so we're kind of on a cloud nine mindset until more time passes.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 3, 2019 14:02:40 GMT -6
A not-insignificant amount of things were cut from Symphony as well and that didn't make it less of a complete game, and the same could be said of critically acclaimed works in all mediums. Sometimes things don't all work out for various reasons, but the end product remains great.
That being said, yeah I thought the same about Focalor. I think that boss was likely cut and this is why the water area has kind of a weird progression part to it/odd movement. I thought the Den of Behemoths was a bit weird and felt like padding, as well, but the connected-ness of it between the other late game areas were not a problem, and the stretching of content itself wasn't an issue for me either. We've seen it all before with the previous games' chaos realm, and often double use of previous areas entirely like PoR and OoE do. RotN seems to have less environment re-use than those do, I think? SotN itself well before them reused heavily from Rondo. I never expected IGA's biggest castle ever to be entirely unique in each screen/instance of enemy with no reuse and no cut content.
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Post by EBBenjy on Jul 3, 2019 18:54:45 GMT -6
SotN itself well before them reused heavily from Rondo. SotN also reused literally every room in the castle for the second castle.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 3, 2019 19:01:20 GMT -6
SotN itself well before them reused heavily from Rondo. SotN also reused literally every room in the castle for the second castle. LOL, well of course besides that haha
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Post by LordKaiser on Jul 3, 2019 21:07:39 GMT -6
Also some items on the concept art where not used. There was a black version of the Blue Rose, maybe the Valkyrie Sword and Blue Rose where meant to combine on a Alchemy. Also the castle size feels like the size of any other Castlevania castle.
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Post by fullmetalsnorlax on Jul 5, 2019 0:29:33 GMT -6
If anything I feel that the castle is too big. This game has destroyed a lot of my responsibilities because I spent too much time playing it to completion SotN had 2 cut areas, and multiple re-releases have re-added those ares. those areas are very out of the way, unrewarding and generally bad. I feel that if Bloodstained were to add a new area via DLC, It should come with a significant reward, (lore, new mode, new ending?), and a strong post-game boss.
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Post by yulia11 on Jul 6, 2019 5:40:44 GMT -6
There are a number of hints throughout the game that more content was originally planned
Focalor: Every character in Curse of the Moon was used except the second boss, Focalor. Focalor is a watery boss, and has a move that looks just like Aqua Stream. It's a pretty good bet that you were supposed to get Aqua Stream from him instead of the Deep Seama randomly dropping it. It's the only required shard that doesn't come from the boss, and also the Waterway is the only area with no boss.
Single appearance enemies: There are several enemies who appear exactly once (not including bosses and Kune Kune). It makes no sense to make extra enemies, as that would add time to the project, so these were almost certainly intended to appear elsewhere.
Separated Ending areas: It's very weird for Den of Behemoths and Glacial Tomb to be segmented off the way they are. It's clear that there were meant to be more areas connecting them to the rest of the castle, but they were cut. Probably there was meant to be one or more areas past the Dragon Towers or the Secret sorcery lab (which itself seems to have been cut back as it is oddly linear and dead ended). As it is the current layout seems like they are rushing to the end after Gebel, as the convenient portal lets them handwave around the final two areas not fitting in anywhere.
The Race: The race for the accelerator shard being in the Den of Behemoths makes no sense. The entire area is giant EXCEPT for this one room. Also, you'll note that the room looks completely different from the rest of the Den, appearing to be in completely different part of the castle. Note the black and blue stone motif that is completely different from the rest of the area. It was clearly transplanted, tileset included, from an incomplete area.
Secret Sorcery Lab: This area is an appendix. It is completely linear and dead ends with no connection to other areas other than a teleport room. It was clearly put together in a rush just to have something on the other end of the train. It doesn't even cleanly connect to the train, as you are unable to go back.
What do you think? Are there omitted areas? Should they put back in the lost areas?
The race should have giant traps, maybe even an enemy fly trap which the Ninja can activate to slow you? But it certainly make sense for this to be in the Orientational Sorcery lab.
Secret Sorcery Lab: I think making a long mirror hallway that teleport back to the garden would both explain the mechanics and give you the reward of beating the area. This leads to the sealed entrance of Glacial Tomb which you need to drain the blood to pass the entrance. Focalor, who is actually cut boss, gives you deep sinker and another entrance into Underground waterway. The Jet is an alternate shard that allow you to move quickly. This way, we avoid having to deal with the unfair entended blade trap.
Den of Behemoth: Gremory should feel harder (as a giant by the way and a speed up version of her throw moon attack) and why doesn't she have her boss music? In fact the final area should be the den of Behemoth further extended into a more metaphysical throne room with similar appearence to hall of Temination where you fight Be'al. and it was never explained how it connects to Glacial Tomb, a regular area. Also where are the Oni and Japanese Dullahhammer (give a well needed revamp to the early enemy)? Also need to get rid of Giant Toad and Giant Buer, and change some other giants. It should get a portal to a Casino Area where you fight both his slot machine and the boss which is optional, and get to know a few friendly demon. O.D. trigger instead when you randomly loses a book after losing a bet, which you fight him on the portal before the den. This area also connects back to Hall of Termination.
Hidden Desert: The area is fine, but Alfred boss fight as well as the reward should change. First of all he should spam shadow clones (but green) that are capable of casting spells, he should run around with the flame shield (high contact damage) which also sets the ground on fire, instead of throwing potions that is while damaging, not very effective initially and can cheese you after he sets up time slow. (If he does, he certainly should get better) If Focalor gives you the water ability, then the reward here should be some way to obtain a better ending, as well as an alternate shard. (High Jump perhaps). The entrance is set up in a way that you must have invert and use reflector ray to get through. Missing either Alfred or Zangetsu will prevent you from getting the true ending. Hidden desert reward you with High Jump while Orientational Sorcery Lab reward you with Accelerator. Missing Alfred here will cause an alternate bad ending where while Gebel is freed from control (and his own existence) but Alfred's attempt at taking the Liber Logaith failed early. Your encounter with both Dominique and Alfred happens earlier instead, which is when Miriam finally develop some mistrust towards her. (you can go back to Todd and ask about her photo)
Sealed Ocean: A wishlist area accessed from the bottom of the ship and allow you to fight creature from the Abyss as well as a rematch with Vepar, or a true Elderitch Abominations. (can alchemy affect an outer god, who is meant to be abstract). This also contain lost stash of equipment that Johannes didn't bother to ask you.
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Post by yulia11 on Jul 6, 2019 5:44:41 GMT -6
I wouldn't go as far as to say incomplete (90 hours in and still not bored) but I do agree that there are signs of cut content. I agree about Focalor, it just lines up way too cleanly. One-off mooks aren't all that uncommon in IGAvania's pretty sure OOE had enemies that were restricted to post-game areas and there is one that comes to mind that only shows up in one room (I forgot the name though). I also think there was meant to be a third-endgame area between the den of behemoths and glacial tomb but not for the same reasons you suggest, sharp transitions are things IGA has done before. My current theory is that it was a gambling themed area where you would fight Valefar while the Den would have its own boss. This is supported by some early info that bloodstained was supposed to have gambling themes which don't exist in the final game outside of Valefar and a backer room (which doesn't count). The race is fine imo. It very much feels like something they designed so it could be put just about anywhere. Although if you combine it with my theory about the third end area then chances are it would be there as a sort of analogue to real-life race betting. I do agree that Secret Sorcery lab is something that was made after the train. Like they knew they wanted to do the train but didn't really think of what to do after it, maybe in the initial plan it was meant or it to take you to the Den of Behemoths or something. I don't think they'll re-add the cut areas and if they do add no areas they way to get to them will be the same as the Gremory portal/8-bit nightmare rather than as a part of the castle. Ok I need to get this down, so my current theory on the initial order plan: Everything up to Valac is the same as the original plan. Instead of Valac giving silver bromide, the secret sorcery lab (or its replacement) would be to the right of the towers Then everything is the same till Gebel except you get aqua jet from Focalor after draining the blood fountain. Instead of slashing the moon you would instead take the train to the final section which would be a gambling area, Den of behemoths, and finally the glacial tomb (albeit expanded) Unfortunately this cuts out the photo ID thing (which I like quite a bit) since I believe Dominque is meant to be gone after the Gebel fight (instead of dissapearing after the Alfred cutscene). It also means that OD would be completely missable. EDIT 2: Just read the backer artbook and Den of Behemoths was meant to be the gambler area but I guess time restraints turned it into the giant garden we got. There should be a photo mode, but the ID is only used once.
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Post by yulia11 on Jul 6, 2019 5:59:40 GMT -6
Losing the book with Lili Maid: I will take this book as conpensation. Please, anything but this. I don't even own them. Well too bad it's mine. This will be a fine addition to the treasure trove. No, you don't understand. Winners keepers, miss Miriam.
O.D. Boss fight transcript: Human, stop. O.D.? What is borrowed from the Library must be returned to the Library. But you lost the book in a bet instead. I am terribly sorry. Sorry will not do, human. Death is too kind for you.
After Boss fight: O.D.? How are you still alive? I am a vampire, remember. Also, I won back the book. Yes, I am really sorry about that. No, you have defeated me, which means I am now under your command. Pelidge my shelves as you please.
Lili Maid after Boss fight. That book was from the vampire? Why didn't you say so? Did something happen? He threaten to drink my blood if I don't return the book. Well, you shouldn't have taken it.
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Post by wissenschaft on Jul 6, 2019 21:29:03 GMT -6
Something people need to understand is that EVERY game has lots and LOTS of cut content. There is no magical way to predict how long a large project like a game will take. All one can do is starting working on several ideas and once you get an idea of how long it takes to create sections of your game then you can predict a launch window. Setting a deadline lets you judge what content ideas would take too long to implement and therefore needs to be cut.
I strongly doubt there was any cut content for the secret sorcery laboratory. The whole idea behind the location is that its a hidden lab away from the castle. It makes sense nothing connects to it. Its a hidden base in the middle of nowhere.
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Post by mourningxsun on Jul 6, 2019 22:40:21 GMT -6
The map is objectively the biggest Iga has ever had in a game, what’s this bullshit about the map not feeling “big”? And that’s just counting rooms but each of Bloodstained’s rooms is a time least 30% bigger than a SotN room because of the higher resolution and change from 4:3 to 16:9. And it’s took me 28 hours on my first run to complete the game with a 100% map and I still have a ton of things to do and trophies to unlock so I don’t buy that it feels incomplete. This game is NOT without criticism but I’ll be damned if one of those is because the map felts small or the game incomplete. Fuck that. Nah, it's not the biggest at all.
It's between 1600 and 1700 rooms based off of map percentages, and I'm sure somebody counted out the square somewhere. Either way that number is less than the size of SotN by quite a bit. And yes yes, "the inverted castle shouldn't count" and I'll give you that. Bloodstained is still smaller than Portrait of Ruin.
Bloodstained also has a lot of "empty" areas. Notably the Den of Behemoths. I'm borderline insulted that Den of Behemoths, arguably the worst area in the game, has the audacity to take up over 10% of the game size. The majority of that area is empty space because suddenly everything has to be big.
If you want to say that the castle is the biggest explicit castle in any of Iga's games, then sure, it is. But time and time and time again, that stretch goal was clarified as referring to the game as a whole, so yeah. Pretty horseshit.
Regarding the OP: The datamines from last year showed that Focalor was originally intended to be fought after the train, so you're pretty spot in in regards to him supposed to be in the game. Valefar was also supposed to be fought a lot earlier, which most people should be able to figure out as he seems *really* out of place in Den of Behemoths.
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Nov 17, 2020 10:39:54 GMT -6
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OwloftheNight98
[TI0] I've always enjoyed the starry night sky...
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Jun 5, 2019 14:10:02 GMT -6
June 2019
princelofthenight98
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Post by OwloftheNight98 on Jul 7, 2019 16:35:04 GMT -6
Yeah I felt the same way, poor Focalor man, every other CotM boss gets their spot in the limelight but not him. There was also: 1# The Glacial Tomb, I get the symbolism behind it, but it was not interesting regardless and even then it was disappointingly small in comparison.
2# The way half the main cast suddenly just dies off; Gebel and Dominique I get, but Alfred and Zangetsu(even though it's rumored he's alive), is just so sudden. It just bothers me. I know death is unpredictable, but their deaths, Alfred especially, come out of nowhere.
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