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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 15:53:30 GMT -6
I'll fire the first volley. The English translation of this game is abhorrent in its consistent and arbitrary inaccuracies, even going so far as to change the personalities of characters through dialogue modifications. I think I can confidently say that anyone who plays the game in Japanese will quickly catch on to this fact, regardless of whether they understand a single word of Japanese, because of how thoroughly off the English script is.
Fine, whatever. So the English script is bad. Even though basically the entire anime industry understands how to provide faithful translations, video game translations have a tradition to uphold. I get it.
The problem here is that when a person plays a game (or anime) in Japanese with English subtitles, and the English dub is so far removed that it's almost completely incompatible, then the subtitles for that dub aren't going to do that person much good. We call this phenomenon "dubtitles", and it's exactly as undesirable as the word connotes.
The implementation of support for the Japanese language in the English language version of this game is currently in "afterthought" territory due to this problem, and I consider that to be rather baffling. After all, the game was funded almost entirely by its Western fans -- fans who have a disproportionate penchant for Japanese culture and whatnot. Dubtitles are an infamous problem that purveyors of Japanese content now reliably take steps to avoid falling afoul of, so it's upsetting to see that in Bloodstained, we have no choice but to deal with the English language script, which, in this case, by contemporary standards, is disgustingly imprecise.
And if anyone so desires, I can provide a breakdown of an early conversation in Bloodstained to prove my point. But, again, I feel anyone who has played the game in Japanese is at this point already nodding their head.
Edit: So in the interest of making the situation perfectly clear to anyone who may feel this concern is blown out of proportion, I offer this analysis of select lines from the first significant conversation to take place in the game. The fact that I found this candidate within minutes of starting the game should say all that needs saying about how pervasive the problem is throughout the script. Ignore the barebones nature of my translations; I avoided adding flair deliberately.
Japanese: ジーベル! やっぱりあなたなの? どうしてこんなこと? Translation: Gebel! So it was you? Why did you do this? English script: Gebel! Tell me you didn't do this. It doesn't make any sense!
(Get used to this sort of "restructuring", because it is the literal majority of cases.)
Japanese: 「どうして」? 人間達が俺達にしたことを考えるなら分かるだろう? Translation: "Why"? Considering what humans did to us, you should understand. English script: How does it not? After all the sins humans wrought upon us?
Japanese: 十年前の出来事なら、ヨハネスから聞いた。 Translation: If you mean the incident from 10 years ago, Johannes told me about it. English script: Johannes told me what they did to you.
Okay, fine, sure, leave out half of the dialogue. It was unneeded fluff anyway. I'm sure nobody playing the game in Japanese with subtitles will catch on to the fact that Miriam sure seems to be saying a lot more than what the given translation suggests. (Also: Everyone in the English cast pronounces Johannes with a "J", making them more or less unique among people who use that name. The Japanese cast gets this right.)
Japanese: 「人間ではない」っか。あなたからその言葉を聞くとは思わなかったわ。 Translation: "Not human." I never thought I'd hear those words from you. English script: What...? I never thought I'd hear those words from you.
Here the most tangible issue, beyond the routinely arbitrary decision to replace one sentence of dialogue outright, is the fact that Miriam is maintaining her stern expression during this moment, so the interjection "What...?", which is a raised-eyebrows-surprised sort of expression, is absolutely not a match for the given facial expression. And this disconnect in turn subtly redefines Miriam's personality.
Japanese: 覚えてる? それは昔、私があなたに言った言葉よ。 Translation: Do you remember the words you spoke to me long ago? English script: I was the one that came to you broken, convinced I was a monster. And you told me--
Japanese: そんなことは-- Translation: That matters not-- English script: This is nonsense.
Japanese: どうでも良くない! Translation: It does matter! English script: You TOLD ME!
Japanese: 生きる希望を失っていた私は、あなたの言葉に勇気付けられたの! Translation: I had lost the will to live, and your words gave me courage! English script: Our power doesn't make us good or bad. Our choices do.
Japanese: 「力そのものは善悪はない。力の使い方に善悪があるんだ」って。思い出して、ジーベル! Translation: You said, "It's not power itself that's good or evil, it's how one uses that power." Please remember, Gebel! English script: I'd given up on my humanity, but you restored my hope. Don't you remember!?
Let's break this down.
Japanese: Do you remember the words you spoke to me long ago? | That matters not-- | It does matter! I had lost the will to live, and your words gave me courage. You said, "It's not power itself that's good or evil, it's how one uses that power." Please remember, Gebel!
English script: I was the one that came to you broken, convinced I was a monster. And you told me-- | This is nonsense. | You TOLD ME! Our power doesn't make us good or bad. Our choices do. I'd given up on my humanity, but you restored my hope. Don't you remember!?
Here are the problems with this reordering and restructuring, beyond the basic lack of necessity of moving lines of dialogue around like this:
1: Gebel is now the one who interrupts Miriam, instead of the other way around. And Miriam's response to this interruption makes it look like she got snippy at being interrupted. Right off the bat, we've reordered personalities, changing which character is likely to interrupt someone talking in order to make a point.
2: There is nothing in the original dialogue at this moment that provides that Miriam had "given up on her humanity" or that she was "convinced she was a monster". She had "given up on living" -- nothing more elaborate than that. The extra details given in the English script were, at most, intended to be derived conclusions left up to the player to interpret, but here they are spelled out for us, which in turn signals a change in Miriam's personality where she is willing to belabor the specifics of her painful past.
3: The change made to the quoted words spoken by Gebel is an unneeded truncation which drastically steals from the importance of the given sentence.
4: The last line of dialogue has been changed from specifically Gebel's quoted words to the explanation of what those words meant to Miriam. This is an important distinction because the last sentence in this line is a plea for Gebel to remember. So in the Japanese, she's specifically asking Gebel to remember the words he spoke, and in the English, this specificity is thrown out the window and the plea to remember is either generalized or is asking Gebel to remember how his words gave her hope. Further, in the original Japanese, this section of the dialogue specifically begins with Miriam asking if Gebel remembers the words he spoke, but that introductory component is totally gone in the English script.
5: The final plea to remember has been changed to an accusation. Just another personality tweak to add to the pile.
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Post by seiya on Jun 25, 2019 16:00:21 GMT -6
Most anime has pretty bad translations. I mean, I talk to my Japanese friends in Japanese and I often hear things that do not line up with what is being put in the subtitles.
I can understand changes that are done due to cultural changes. I mean, how to you cover someone calling unknown old guy "oji-san"? Do you translate it as "old man"? That sounds insulting in english. You could just do "mister", but then you lose the reference that there is a some respect in calling a person by the same title you use for a parent. However, I have seen a case where the english translation used the person's first name even though the character didnt KNOW that old man.
That said, the translation this time is cringe worthy. I have seen examples where what was said had no real connection to the Japanese. I hate when they do that, even if it is to try and cover up a cultural difference.
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 16:17:08 GMT -6
Most anime has pretty bad translations. Speaking as one who has an adequate grasp of the language, no, most anime nowadays does not, as long as we're talking about actual subtitles and not English dubs. It is actually rare for me to find anime with bad subtitles anymore, and I am far pickier than most. (Side note: All Studio Ghibli domestic releases have awful subtitles. But then again it's reasonable to note that they predate the phenomenon of the anime streaming industry which more or less ushered in the golden age of accurate subs.) I can understand changes that are done due to cultural changes. A standard concession -- points like that, or small changes to make the dialogue flow better in English, or similar considerations. But you have already indicated that you understand that in the case of this game, the English script goes way beyond what was strictly necessary. Entire sentences reordered, important things seemingly deemed unimportant and left completely out, etc.
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Post by seiya on Jun 25, 2019 16:24:38 GMT -6
Most anime has pretty bad translations. Speaking as one who has an adequate grasp of the language, no, most anime nowadays does not, as long as we're talking about actual subtitles and not English dubs. It is actually rare for me to find anime with bad subtitles anymore, and I am far pickier than most. (Side note: All Studio Ghibli domestic releases have awful subtitles. But then again it's reasonable to note that they predate the phenomenon of the anime streaming industry which more or less ushered in the golden age of accurate subs.) This one is a place where I will say it is a matter of opinion as to what is needed. I have done translation work, so that made me a bit more strict in what I want. That said, I will concede that the translations there days are better than what they used to be.
Heh, oddly, the worst translation I have ever ran into is not because of what was done in the middle of the game, but because they didnt translate the end music. It was Chrono Cross's EPILOGUE. You literally lose part of the story.
But once again, I accept people are different have usually have different opinions.
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Post by neff on Jun 25, 2019 17:01:39 GMT -6
I'll fire the first volley. The English translation of this game is abhorrent in its consistent and arbitrary inaccuracies, even going so far as to change the personalities of characters through dialogue modifications. I think I can confidently say that anyone who plays the game in Japanese will quickly catch on to this fact, regardless of whether they understand a single word of Japanese, because of how thoroughly off the English script is. Fine, whatever. So the English script is bad. Even though basically the entire anime industry understands how to provide faithful translations, video game translations have a tradition to uphold. I get it. The problem here is that when a person plays a game (or anime) in Japanese with English subtitles, and the English dub is so far removed that it's almost completely incompatible, then the subtitles for that dub aren't going to do that person much good. We call this phenomenon "dubtitles", and it's exactly as undesirable as the word connotes. The implementation of support for the Japanese language in the English language version of this game is currently in "afterthought" territory due to this problem, and I consider that to be rather baffling. After all, the game was funded almost entirely by its Western fans -- fans who have a disproportionate penchant for Japanese culture and whatnot. Dubtitles are an infamous problem that purveyors of Japanese content now reliably take steps to avoid falling afoul of, so it's upsetting to see that in Bloodstained, we have no choice but to deal with the English language script, which, in this case, by contemporary standards, is disgustingly imprecise. And if anyone so desires, I can provide a breakdown of an early conversation in Bloodstained to prove my point. But, again, I feel anyone who has played the game in Japanese is at this point already nodding their head. Thanks for bringjng this up! though I'm not sure if the devs will be able to do a thing about it. I knew something was royally off when I played Dominique's intro scene in japanese with the english text still running. Translators of video games try to pass this off as "localization" but when the troublesome phrase is "Nice to meet you" it is harder to justify. Even games like FF14 are guilty of this. There was a big fuss around Haurchefant, a fan favorite character, having two different personalities based on translation. I would love to read some examples of the differences between our japanese and english characters in Bloodstained. Miriam's tone in Japanese sure does suggest that there is a good difference to be seen in character interpretation!
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Post by asterra on Jun 25, 2019 17:25:45 GMT -6
Thanks for bringjng this up! though I'm not sure if the devs will be able to do a thing about it. Ridiculous. The game is now in bugfix and extra content mode and will be for probably years. Everyday fan subtitlers churn out essentially flawless translations of anime quickly, regularly and without pay. Given that context, the provision of an acceptable English translation for this very fan-oriented and literally fan-enabled product is not merely possible but imperative; if anything, its current absence is inexplicable. I would love to read some examples of the differences between our japanese and english characters in Bloodstained. Granted. (OP was edited.)
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Post by seiya on Jun 25, 2019 17:38:47 GMT -6
There are a lot of examples in the first meeting with Gebel. Here is a really bad example.
Miriam: Gebel. yappari anata na no. Doshite konna koto?
Gebel. やっぱりあなたなの。どしてこんな事?
Rough translation: Gebel. As I thought, it is you. Why have you been doing this?
Official translation: Gebel. Tell me you didnt do this. It doesnt make any sense.
Something is off there. The reply to that:
Gebel: doushite? ningen-tachi kara, watashi-tachi ni shita koto wo kangaeru nara wakaru deshou? どうして? 人間たちから、私たちにしたことを考えるなら分かるでしょう?
Rough translation: Why? If you think of what the humans did to us, does it not it makes sense? Official translation: How does it not? After all the sins humans put us though?
That one is better. It is a little odd they used "sins" here, but it is understandable.
And the line after that is missing something VERY important and made me wonder why there were all the references to it.
FIX:
Miriam: 10nenmae no deki koto nara wi Johannes kara kiita. 10年前の出来事ならJohannesからきった。
Rough Translation: I heard about the incident from 10 years ago from Johannes. Official Translation: Johannes told me what they did to you.
Wait, they removed the time frame setting phrase and changed a general reference to a specific one. Yeah, that loses a lot of context and scene setting. Changes like this are questionable.
EDIT:
It is 出来事なら, I will blame my casual dictionary for throwing me off. I should have listened to my own ears. Admit fault when it is mine is a rule I live by.
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Post by seiya on Jun 25, 2019 17:47:34 GMT -6
Japanese: 十年前の出来事なら、ヨハネスから聞いた。 Translation: If you mean the incident from 10 years ago, Johannes told me about it. English script: Johannes told me what they did to you. Okay, fine, sure, leave out half of the dialogue. It was unneeded fluff anyway. I'm sure nobody playing the game in Japanese with subtitles will catch on to the fact that Miriam sure seems to be saying a lot more than what the given translation suggests. (Also: Everyone in the English cast pronounces Johannes with a "J", making them more or less unique among people who use that name. The Japanese cast gets this right.)
I missed you had added this, but that is because I started before you did it. I am going to listen some more to the audio.
I had not found a できこと in my usual dictionary and I swear that is what I was hearing. Now that I saw your translation, I pulled out my best dictionary and there it is. I want to listen to it some more because I think there is an error here and I want to double check both of us. But there is a reminder of when this was my job, if you dont have a written record of the conversation, double and triple check.
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Post by neff on Jun 26, 2019 5:44:41 GMT -6
Impressive , at the start of the conversation I can see where some concern may have been had with the original translation.The prior scene establishes that Johannes told Miriam that it was Gebel who was behind this, yet in the japaenese it sounds like it was Miriam who came to that conclusion first.("Gebel, as I thought, it was you.") Well of course you did silly, you were told that 5 minutes ago!
The other parts though really change up the conversation as you said, which might be compounded if Bloodstained goes into other media or games about Gebel's role. Miriam's "giving up on her humanity" seems way more abstract and "video gamey" than her "giving up on living."
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Post by Aztec on Jun 26, 2019 17:17:53 GMT -6
This game, like most, got a localization, not a straight translation, and Im glad it did. Japanese to English straight translations sound so bad.
If you know Japanese why even play it with English text? Thats the only way of consuming a piece of media as originally intended and that is learning the language it was written on so you can do it in said original language. Thats it.
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Post by asterra on Jun 26, 2019 18:04:56 GMT -6
This game, like most, got a localization, not a straight translation, and Im glad it did. Japanese to English straight translations sound so bad. Not entirely relevant to this thread. While I would absolutely still complain about the indefensible changes to dialogue that result in personality modifications (see: the OP), it would be easier to ignore if we were not then stuck with the transcript of that staggeringly inaccurate translation as the ostensible subtitles for the Japanese dialogue. That said, who asked for a straight translation? They have one job, and it doesn't have to be a tradeoff, as long as they don't suck at their job. If you know Japanese why even play it with English text? Don't be pedantic. For one thing, I already went well out of my way to underscore the fact that the English script is so far removed from the Japanese that even someone completely unversed in the Japanese language will soon spot this fact. For another, don't pretend you lack the intuition to guess that there are plenty of people who know a language imperfectly and/or have their reasons for desiring to experience something in its original iteration inasmuch as it is enabled for them.
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Post by dareka on Jun 28, 2019 2:10:40 GMT -6
asterra I lived in Japan for 8 years and worked as a translator/interpreter/programmer at a Japanese game company. I'm also a native Spanish/English bilingual, and also work as college language professor and have a Master's degree in modern languages, and I also had the opportunity and pleasure of translating a history book on my home town originally written originally in Spanish to Japanese (not the other way around). I played the entire game with English voice overs and Japanese subtitles. You are obviously proficient in Japanese, and are entitled to your own opinion. But, as someone whose life basically revolves around language - and has always revolved around it, really - I must say that I thought the English version was exceptionally well done. I believe it's a very good 意訳, a translation meant to convey intent rather than raw information. So, taking the example of the first exchange between Miriam and Johannes... Japanese: ジーベル! やっぱりあなたなの? どうしてこんなこと? Translation: Gebel! So it was you? Why did you do this? English script: Gebel! Tell me you didn't do this. It doesn't make any sense! So basically, Miriam's expressing her disbelief and disappointment at Gebel's conduct. The English translation very poignantly does this, and sounds a lot like something a native English speaker would say to express this. Breaking it down... やっぱりあなたなの? expresses disbelief and disappointment at the fact that it's Gebel. It's expressed as a question, but it is not an actual question, so it need not be translated as one. And with どうしてこんなこと she's basically expressing disbelief and disappointment at the fact that he would do such a horrible thing - which is actually a critical element that's missing from the translation you provide: it's not " why did you do this" it's " how could you do such a thing." The distinction is important, because in the translation you provide she's merely asking for a reason, as opposed to expressing her shock and disappointment. In this way, I'd be willing to say the official English translation is more accurate. Japanese: 「どうして」? 人間達が俺達にしたことを考えるなら分かるだろう? Translation: "Why"? Considering what humans did to us, you should understand. English script: How does it not? After all the sins humans wrought upon us? He's expressing that he's doing this as retribution for what humans did to them, something which should be obvious to Miriam. I think this nuance is conveyed very well by the rhetorical question " how does it not?" It's also fitting to call the things that humans did to them sins, given the context: the notion of a sin being something that's morally reprehensible in an of itself, as opposed to a mere violation of social norms, is far more engraved in the western psyche than in the Japanese mindset, and we're talking about a country - England - that's far more religious than Japan will ever be. Japanese: 十年前の出来事なら、ヨハネスから聞いた。 Translation: If you mean the incident from 10 years ago, Johannes told me about it. English script: Johannes told me what they did to you. Here they indeed omitted the fact that the incident took place 10 years ago in the English translation; but it's difficult to make the line as poignant with that little factoid in there, and it's information the player already has that is further implied by the context. Repeating it here serves no dramatic purpose. Anyhow, I doubt I'll change anyone's mind with this post, but if anyone who doesn't speak Japanese wants a second opinion from someone who does, and who's actually done this for a living, here it is. My view is that the English translation (or "localization," if you will) is very well done, and the few true liberties taken with the script are in comedic exchanges that work very well. Any and all deviations from a denotative translation in the drama portions are all called for in the connotative sense, which is what you're required to maintain when translating drama. In my opinion, the observations made in this thread are not blow out of proportion, because they are completely misguided in the first place.
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Post by asterra on Jun 28, 2019 5:25:15 GMT -6
I must say that I thought the English version was exceptionally well done. This is likely because you have academic expectations when it comes to translations, whereas thanks to the advent of anime (and manga), whose English-speaking consumers are more exacting when it comes to how accurate they want their translations to be, I have cultivated a demand for faithful translations which do not sacrifice characterization to make extra room for flowery prose. I believe it's a very good 意訳, a translation meant to convey intent rather than raw information. You're underscoring the very flaw I highlighted at length. So, let's begin. English script: Gebel! Tell me you didn't do this. It doesn't make any sense! So basically, Miriam's expressing her disbelief and disappointment at Gebel's conduct. The English translation very poignantly does this, and sounds a lot like something a native English speaker would say to express this. It adds a phrase at the end which has an easy and common Japanese equivalent. I'll add that exclaiming that something "doesn't make sense" isn't solely an expression of confusion but is also quite specific in meaning. That specific meaning is absent in the original dialogue. Why does it have to be here? It does not. The translator was on a mission to give the script added flavor. Sometimes that flavor is dubious but otherwise unimportant, but each time such an attempt is made, a risk is taken, and this game's English script quite simply overflows with legitimate violations. In this way, I'd be willing to say the official English translation is more accurate. Ignoring the point that I prefaced the OP with a note about providing a strictly rough translation, I feel as though you are latching onto this item as some sort of case-in-point for dismissing the entire conversation about inventing dialogue from thin air. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. It's also fitting to call the things that humans did to them sins I'm not going to belabor any talk about this or other lines of dialogue I included almost entirely because they bridged the more pertinent specimens. There is effectively no real violation in the translation of this line of dialogue, as indeed there isn't in at least half of the lines of dialogue in the game. I am more interested in the ones which do run afoul of that trend -- especially the major violators. Most of those are nowhere to be seen in this reply, and instead focus was held almost exclusively to lines of dialogue that I considered either to be trivial violations or not even suspect. Is it my fault for even bothering to include those in the OP? It could be. English script: Johannes told me what they did to you. Here they indeed omitted the fact that the incident took place 10 years ago in the English translation; but it's difficult to make the line as poignant with that little factoid in there, and it's information the player already has that is further implied by the context. Repeating it here serves no dramatic purpose. Here you reveal that you agree with the philosophy of the translator, but not, unfortunately, that your judgment is correct. You are saying that you don't like the fact that the original dialogue is including this information. That's not up to you. And it's not up to the people who did not write the original dialogue to proofread or smooth out (to their own personal tastes) the material they've been given charge to accurately translate. They were not hired to be the game's editor. And even if we allow you have a point to make about poignancy, what then is there to be said about the fact that Miriam's Japanese voice actress talks for twice as long as the now-truncated English script indicates? Players will pick up on this disconnect and be distracted by the confusion it engenders. I've already had several people agree with me on this in other discussions on this topic. It's the item that makes it easy for non-speakers of Japanese to recognize how inaccurate the English script is. It feels like you are forgetting the title of the thread -- the fact that the English dialogue deviates from the Japanese to the point of modifying character personalities is... upsetting... but also an entirely different conversation from the topic of providing proper subtitles for the players interested in enjoying the game in its original Japanese. the few true liberties taken with the script are in comedic exchanges that work very well. This is a convenient generalization, which I will accentuate by again noting that the only real deviation tackled in this response was dismissed with a personal opinion -- fully as ironclad as it is arbitrary. One wonders if the mental gymnastics that would be used in the hypothetical defense the rest of my OP would be of a similar nature. In my opinion, the observations made in this thread are not blow out of proportion, because they are completely misguided in the first place. And I feel that my rather more thorough breakdowns of this single conversation have proven more compelling than what you bring to the table. I am more than willing to move on to the next conversation in the game, which would inevitably strengthen my points, as you likely understand.
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Post by neff on Jun 28, 2019 9:39:13 GMT -6
I think your post, Dareka, while informative, doesn't address the heart of the problem: that the liberties taken with the script result in two different Miriams, or rather, two character interpretations that are made because of the liberties taken with modifying the script, rather than the script itself.
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Post by Torabi on Jul 2, 2019 7:28:09 GMT -6
The problem with translating for "intent" is that you're filtering a creative work through one person's interpretation of that work. That may be sufficient for something simple, but if the work has any philosophical depth, and the creator chose specific words to communicate their message, it's going to be clobbered by the translator's interpretation of the work, which may only capture one facet of the creator's intent, or may get it wrong entirely.
This means there's an additional metric on which to judge a translated work versus an original. The accuracy of a translation can be independent from the "quality" of the translated work. Some people may prefer a work that has been altered substantially in the process, and by various metrics, the translated work could indeed be "better" than the original. It could tell a better story, be more convincing, have more depth, etc. But for someone who is interested in the original creator's work, an inaccurate translation is a worse product, even if by other standards it's "better".
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