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Post by Ciel on Apr 20, 2019 22:08:31 GMT -6
I'm not sure how to feel about this. It's great to see Castlevania finally getting _something_ after so many years, but on the other hand this is 2019 Konami. Unless they're doing this to gauge public reception to Castlevania for a new console and desktop mainline entry, to me this is nothing but easy cash grab on nostalgia appeal. Konami has to try way harder if they want to fully recover the goodwill of their lost fanbase.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 22, 2019 8:23:51 GMT -6
Unless they're doing this to gauge public reception to Castlevania for a new console and desktop mainline entry I've seen this from a lot of people now, and while that may be some part of it, I don't think so. The same thing was said of Requiem. If they can't tell from Netflix, Curse of the Moon and Requiem by now that there's interest, they still aren't interested in said interest ;p The main concern is risk aversion for them, in how I see it from their point of view. How we look at what they do is them being evil, but from their standpoint it's like this: Even if proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that every fan at even a casual level wants a new Castlevania and believes in their heart they would buy it, they know how exquisitely hard to please we all are. Everyone at every level of demographic/generation has a different idea of what Castlevania is, and the last time they tried to do something "new", it split everyone and got bad to middling critical reception. A new Iga style game? Way too much work for too little potential return on something that niche'd itself into the ground. All of the publishers Iga approached proved as much by unanimously turning him down. Without the attachment of the original people behind it, too, this wouldn't get far off the ground. It'd be some Survive-style bastardization most likely, and I think even they know that's a bad idea given how clear the good guy vs bad guy narrative it would have against Bloodstained. A new classicvania game? That's like a new classic arcade game in 2019, such as beat 'em ups, shmups, their own Contra, anything stage-based is dead in the water for any large company's consideration. That's an indie product or the occasional curiosity for companies in a better place to actually already make many good console games and collections to support it (Mega Man). Konami definitely isn't Capcom. Something new? See above - probably not. So, the incredibly low risk approach has been and will likely continue to be for some time the best way to go - gambling/mobage. Easy, almost automatic returns on re-use of things, now with basic compilations. The only chance to pull out of this is for them is to find a group to take full control of a game and make some charming hybrid of new and old, that should have already been. I think several dev companies could do it, but they either may not be interested or Konami's terms too limiting, or they haven't even tried communicating for it from the bad experiences with outsourcing above. If they could just learn that they can get someone else in Japan to do their damn work for them, but that may also be a matter of pride, either their own or the dignity of those they'd ask. On that last point, I can easily picture this - a fact is that Hideki Kamiya's favorite action game is Castlevania 1. However, him being the guy that he is, if Konami approached him and asked if he'd work together with them to bring back CV, I can imagine his response would be "Never call me again - you guys are jokes and deserve your reputation. I have my own IPs that stomp yours". It will be interesting to see how it goes.
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Post by RichterB on Apr 22, 2019 16:49:24 GMT -6
ciel , purifyweirdshard did a fantastic job there laying down the groundwork of the complicated issues involved with all this, and I personally don't totally blame Konami under the present circumstances, sad as they are. They're a business at the end of the day. (Frankly, the fans could've been just as upset at Castlevania languishing in tweaked Metroidvania titles and 3D quasi-dungeon crawlers/beat-em-ups for almost a decade, which is what helped predicate the desperate full-on jump onto the God of War bandwagon with the Lords of Shadow series). However, I've been noticing a pattern that suggests we have entered an exploratory period of some manner, to which I believe if something major is going to happen, it's going to happen in an announcement between 2 and 12 months from now...
April-November 2014
*Castlevania: Dracula X, rare SNES game, re-released for the first time via Wii U Virtual Console in all regions.
May 2015 *Bloodstained Ritual of the Night achieves $5,545,991 via Kickstarter
December 2016-January 2017
*Castlevania: Dracula X, rare SNES game, re-released for 3DS Virtual Console in all regions.
June 2017
*Via Nintendo Life, Konami's European Brand Manager states: "All I can say is that there is lots of internal discussions going on within Konami regarding what games we can bring to the Nintendo Switch, other than Bomberman, a game which we are well aware of its heritage and how loved it and Castlevania is. So much so that Castlevania is getting is getting its own show on Netflix and because of that, we’re hearing a lot of desires from our fans for a new Castlevania series. So we do know there is a demand for a new game, but right now nothing is set in stone as the discussions are still on going." [sic.--direct quote, typos and all]*Belmont Bomber character added via DLC for Super Bomberman R January 2018
*Warren Ellis says Netflix's Castlevania Season 2 will launch in the summer of 2018 [it would actually air later that same year, in October]
April 2018
*Castlevania: Grimoire of Souls iOS Mobile Game announced May 2018
*Castlevania: Grimoire of Souls beta closes (Circa) June 2018
*Curse of the Moon is announced to have "100,000 downloads less than a week after it launched...56% of them on Nintendo platform." *Netflix announces Castlevania will have a 3rd season prior to Season 2 even launching. *Internet rumor/leaker person Vergeben claims Ridley, Ice Climbers, Snake, Simon Belmont, and Isabelle are coming to new Smash Bros. *Via Castlevania Dungeon website from outside source, internet rumor/leaker person Vergeben proclaims: " Castelvania is making a comeback with two new titles. I believe each are multiplatform releases (one may be Switch exclusive but haven't been able to verify that). One is a new title and the other a collection of classic Castlevania games, with Symphony of the Night being the headline game." (Note that this is well after Grimoire of Souls was announced and demoed.) *Vergeben goes on to suggest that Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth may come to Switch via a collection, which may or may not be related to the above. *Via Castlevania Dungeon website, a user by the name of Dusk Golem who posts on ResetERA, who's been in the know about REmake 2, said Konami has a game to "counter" Bloodstained.*Via Castlevania Dungeon website, French gaming site Gamekult speaks about Konami at E3 about being invited to a closed doors presentation to an unannounced game. Translation from ResetERA notes discussion as: This isn't PES or the sport compilation (i don't know a thing about this game). The editor in chief knows some things on this game but can't talk about it yet. Then, one of the guys at Gamekult asks if it's horror-related and the guy who knows about the game hesitates before dismissing the question.
*Ridley, Ice Climbers, and Konami's Snake confirmed for Smash Bros Ultimate.
*Vergeben doubles down, still says the two Castlevania games he spoke about exist despite not showing at E3. August 2018
Simon Belmont (and Richter Belmont, plus more) confirmed for Smash Bros Ultimate. September 2018
*Super Bomberman R adds Castlevania-inspired stage and Alucard Bomber character via DLC. *Isabelle confirmed for Smash Bros Ultimate October 2018
*Konami opens a new Castlevania website, complete with timeline of games
*Netflix Season 2 of Castlevania launches *Castlevania Requiem, a collection of Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night, launches for PS4. (The collection Vergeben heard about?) March 2019
*Konami announces multiple anniversary collections, including one for Castlevania's early days, and asks for a person's birth date to enter the website (despite these games being rated no worse than T for Teen, I'd imagine), as if possibly collecting demographic info. May 16, 2019
Castlevania Anniversary Collection release date. Includes book that, according the new sample pages available on the website, notes there is an unnamed "current series producer at Konami...currently supervising production of the Castlevania series as a whole, including the recent Netflix animated series."(E3 2019) June 11-13, 2019
*Probably nothing, but...? ? ? Summer 2019
*Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night launches
Now, as I go over all this again, I see that it's sort of a mishmash, but two patterns emerge:
1.) Vergeben was not 100% incorrect on his/her Castlevania leaks, and was close to if not completely correct about his/her Smash Bros. leaks, opening up possibilities for his "new" Castlevania claim.
2.) Public interest and viability for Castlevania, while not spectacular, is growing more than it has for a while, and Konami has shown some level of response to that. Moreover, they apparently have someone specifically managing the brand again post-IGA, which is intriguing.
...A new classicvania game? That's like a new classic arcade game in 2019, such as beat 'em ups, shmups, their own Contra, anything stage-based is dead in the water for any large company's consideration. That's an indie product or the occasional curiosity for companies in a better place to actually already make many good console games and collections to support it (Mega Man). Konami definitely isn't Capcom. Something new? See above - probably not. ...I think several dev companies could do it, but they either may not be interested or Konami's terms too limiting, or they haven't even tried communicating for it from the bad experiences with outsourcing above. If they could just learn that they can get someone else in Japan to do their damn work for them, but that may also be a matter of pride, either their own or the dignity of those they'd ask. On that last point, I can easily picture this - a fact is that Hideki Kamiya's favorite action game is Castlevania 1. However, him being the guy that he is, if Konami approached him and asked if he'd work together with them to bring back CV, I can imagine his response would be "Never call me again - you guys are jokes and deserve your reputation. I have my own IPs that stomp yours". It will be interesting to see how it goes. Two things came to mind on these points.
1.) Curse of the Moon was oddly very successful, even beyond the Backers it seems, despite the fact that it was essentially an enhanced 8-bit Classicvania. Some people even considered it a good Metroidvania, as confusing as that sounds. So there might very well be a market to create something like this on a bigger scale, and let people in all demographics interpret it however they like, so long as they like and buy it. (But at its core, it was basically Dracula's Curse, a Classicvania.)
2.) While I understand the temptation and sentiment, I'm very wary of Hideki Kamiya at the wheel. We've already had a version of what his 3D Castlevania would be via Lament of Innocence, Curse of Darkness, and the Lords of Shadow games, which despite their differences and shortcomings, have a core design document reflective of Devil May Cry and Bayonetta (and the Sony-made God of War franchise, which was a spin-off of sorts of Kamiya's style). I gave the Lords of Shadow stuff one more chance with this style of design, and I reconfirmed to myself that Castlevania is not best served by this style of gameplay. It just becomes generic and blends in with a separate genre. Now, despite my passionate nature about these things, I'm obviously not judge and jury, and Kamiya may have something totally different up his sleeve, but personally I feel it'd be a marketing mistake to confuse Castlevania with these games any further. Regardless of what I think in terms of the functionality of the game, marketing-wise, the public is almost always going to see it as an off-brand Bayonetta or Devil May Cry if this approach is taken. (Metal Gear Rising Revengeance, for example, didn't exactly blow off the doors and secure a new sub-franchise for Metal Gear when it combined Metal Gear with Bayonetta/DMC.)
But your point of using an outside developer still stands as a likely necessary option. Not sure how much in the tank Konami has left, though Bomberman R, whoever did that, seemed to be solid enough (if very limited and basic). Another thing I commonly hear is let From Software do it. That would again depend upon how much they want to alter their own proclivities, though, as Dark Souls doesn't even allow for jumping. Sekiro suggests some glimmers of hope for them, though still seems like a different animal overall. I'm looking for someone to come in and just start from the ground up, thinking about what can make Castlevania its own thing. Because the pieces are there. It's just about vision and execution.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 22, 2019 18:00:13 GMT -6
A "4th"/new ReBirth game was among the rumors at one point, too, which was exciting. I'd heard of that news much before Curse of the Moon's release, so I was hoping it would be Castlevania 3 - perhaps tying it in with the current Netflix seasons. Would have been very smart and less of a risk than most ideas.
No, I'm not entirely sold on the Platinum/Kamiya idea myself, rather just an example. I'd like to see the series either be its own thing or continue in previously held genres. A one-off celebration of characters high in fanservice seems like it'd serve well, too, outside of Grimoire of Souls. Many would be interested in a "Warriors" game which would do that, and a risky yet interesting move would be to set the 1999 Demon War in that genre or a clever spin on it.
I believe myself that classicvania -and- Igavania can work for new/current CV games, and be profitable, but in their eyes likely not. Maybe after Bloodstained has proved itself fully and completely to them and everyone besides just us, beyond the Kickstarter phase and the lead-up period we're in right now.
Something can/will happen eventually. I don't know which/how much or if any at all of those events you listed have significance to that end, but we're in a place now where it's a better idea for them to move than it has been in quite a long time. The good news for me as a Bloodstained fan though is I see us benefiting from it regardless of success or failure.
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Post by RichterB on Apr 22, 2019 18:19:16 GMT -6
A "4th"/new ReBirth game was among the rumors at one point, too, which was exciting. I'd heard of that news much before Curse of the Moon's release, so I was hoping it would be Castlevania 3 - perhaps tying it in with the current Netflix seasons. Would have been very smart and less of a risk than most ideas. No, I'm not entirely sold on the Platinum/Kamiya idea myself, rather just an example. I'd like to see the series either be its own thing or continue in previously held genres. A one-off celebration of characters high in fanservice seems like it'd serve well, too, outside of Grimoire of Souls. Many would be interested in a "Warriors" game which would do that, and a risky yet interesting move would be to set the 1999 Demon War in that genre or a clever spin on it. I believe myself that classicvania -and- Igavania can work for new/current CV games, and be profitable, but in their eyes likely not. Maybe after Bloodstained has proved itself fully and completely to them and everyone besides just us, beyond the Kickstarter phase and the lead-up period we're in right now. Something can/will happen eventually. I don't know which/how much or if any at all of those events you listed have significance to that end, but we're in a place now where it's a better idea for them to move than it has been in quite a long time. The good news for me as a Bloodstained fan though is I see us benefiting from it regardless of success or failure. When there was talk about another Rebirth, I was hoping for a Belmont's Revenge remake, with a little more time put in on production values and gameplay options. But I can see why a Dracula's Curse remake would make the most sense. (Even IGA wanted to do a remake way back when, IIRC). I still feel that may be the most likely initial result when all is said and done.
Despite finding the Warriors-style games tiring, I have to admit that a Warriors-style game for the 1999 battle would be clever.
It is fascinating how Bloodstained and Castlevania seem to be building off one another in recent months. I don't know who benefits more, as it seems like Bloodstained has done a lot of the heavy lifting so far, but there is definitely a correlation on some level.
The fact that there is now confirmed to be producer in charge of the Castlevania brand at Konami surprised me. If it's an inert franchise, it wouldn't need a specific person in charge of it, I'd think. So I think things are percolating, whether or not they were beforehand.
Anyway, I came back on to add this to my last post, but it can just as well go here. I think Konami will take a Rebirth-style baby step when getting back into the conversation alongside Bloodstained, but if we're miraculously talking about going full 3D with Castlevania again, these three .gifs are my personal litmus test for any design document. Is the designer willing to implement these fundamental skill-based platforming elements and embellishments that go hand in hand with the action (and/or exploration), not separately as scripted or quick-time events:
As an aside to this, I still cannot believe that in 1999, warts or not, KCEK was well on its way to implementing Castlevania in 3D...and then all of that was thrown out the window. Even if a designer disagreed with the execution, the principles were distinctively Castlevania and logical toward exploiting the franchise in the next dimension. I don't understand why IGA dismissed basically all of this in two attempts; and honestly, the works of Mercury Steam basically did as well. (And at this point, despite some exceptions, there is an internet mob mentality propagated more often than not that nothing can be learned from those N64 entries, creating the vicious cycle that 3D is out of reach for Castlevania.) Looking back over the years, this has been the most frustrating thing about the franchise for me personally, limiting the series in 3D, right alongside the notion that every 2D Castlevania entry had to strictly adhere to the overall structure of Symphony of the Night. Nothing wrong with SotN, mind you--and you could have still been making Metroidvanias, which IGA did try to branch out a little on with PoR and OoE--but there could have been completely different 2D philosophies to keep the series fresh, too. If you look at the N64 entries, they were essentially a culmination of all the interpretations of Castlevania, versus just trying to do SotN in 3D, or Castlevania 1 in 3D. SotN itself was a reworking of the principles of Vampire Killer and Simon's Quest in a more structured Metroid packaging; it never would have happened if it had strictly adhered to, say, Super Castlevania IV or Rondo of Blood.
P.S.
It's in something I've been putting together, but I want to point out here that if you break apart the sealing off of several stages in Castlevania 64, which Henry's quest kind of did further in Legacy of Darkness, and you add in stats and more customization...you basically get a legitimate SotN template in 3D. I mean, Castle Center and the Villa are practically micro-Metroidvania already. So it's shocking to me that the ones who often voice the most distrust in the admittedly imperfect N64 games as having value to the future of the franchise are those who are most passionate about SotN and its continuations. Is there just a general fear of 3D over 2D? I mean, I like 2D, too, but I think 3D is also fun and important for marketing purposes.
I just hope that Konami looks at the whole thing logically when and if they "go for it."
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Post by hyugakojiro on Apr 22, 2019 18:51:12 GMT -6
Not really expecting much from Konami these days after alienating and driving away their in house talent and releasing games like MG Survive, CV Grimoire of Souls and Harmony of Despair. They could rely on outsourcing as mentioned and farm it out to Inti Creates, Way Forward or Platinum Games (Nier Automata team) depending on the scale of the project which would be great. But I just don't think they'd be willing of sink a lot of resources into a new CV project based on their corporate culture as it exists today. Hope I'm proven wrong though.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 24, 2019 9:49:41 GMT -6
Interestingly, they're using the "first" language again and M2 is stated to be involved! As a caveat, this seems to have been a "scheduled" post and may have been typed up around the same time or before the original "incorrect" ad was changed to not say first, but for now it stands:
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Post by ReySol on Apr 24, 2019 10:29:57 GMT -6
Interestingly, they're using the "first" language again and M2 is stated to be involved! I hope this was a slip, even if the text was made before for the launch of website. That would mean someone knows about a second collection in the works. I want Symphony of the night and Rondo of blood on Switch. Of course, GBA games would be great as well, but I am going to keep my hopes moderate. If M2 is involved, we might get Castlevania: The Adventure ReBirth and GBA games in the next collection. Rondo could be in the mix because it was already on Wii Virtual console, too. But mostly I want Symphony to come to Switch!
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Post by Brainiac on Apr 24, 2019 12:36:03 GMT -6
Hmmmmkay, I suppose I should restructure my thinking on a possible second collection given what's happened. IF a second collection is actually coming, Rondo is in question for two reasons. One, it's older than the youngest title of the first collection (Bloodlines). Two, it's in the already extant Requiem with SotN. As such, I am going to give RichterB what he wants and go with the SNES version. I personally don't think it would be (especially since the double-pack excuse would mean SotN would be kept out of a collection group honoring the series as a whole and that's just WRONG), but we're going this route for now. In addition, Kid Dracula for the Game Boy is also out for two reasons - being partially a remake of the Famicom original and being older than Bloodlines. X68000 is also older than Bloodlines, so if the Battle of 1692 shows up AGAIN, it's gonna be Chronicles. While I'm inclined to think remakes of titles from previous collections would not happen since this is about tributes to the originals as much as possible, I'm making an exception here in hopes of something much later. Legends, the N64 titles, and Circle of the Moon are dependent on non-canon being acceptable. I'm going with acceptable, but I think only Legacy of Darkness's expanded version of its predecessor will be used. Finishing out the second collection would be a return of the GBA Double Pack contents, HoD and AoS. Thus, my current guess for a second collection is... Dracula X (most likely Rondo, but possibly SNES) Symphony of the Night (most likely the original, but in avoiding Requiem again, we're going to say this is the Saturn version) Legends Legacy of Darkness (effectively the "complete" version of both N64 games) Circle of the Moon Chronicles (or less likely, X68000) Harmony of Dissonance Aria of Sorrow From there, if we presume at least one more collection, we get to the reason I wanted Chronicles in the second...so that Adventure ReBirth can eventually appear (if the various ReBirths don't get their own collective release). This would also be where the DS trilogy and the PS2 titles (though I could see LoI being on the previous collection as it was released only a few months after AoS) would be included. I'm not sure if it would stay at eight games or drop to a smaller number as things get steadily more advanced, so this could be a single 8-game collection or a pair of 6-game collections (also depending whether or not Lords of Shadow gets included or not). As such, for now, I'm just sticking with my guesses for a second collection and waiting to see if even THAT has a chance.
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Post by warthecheese on Apr 25, 2019 7:20:28 GMT -6
>• Bonus Book eBook
I'm glad if there is a picture not on this.
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Post by blueskull on Apr 26, 2019 18:11:07 GMT -6
sad, a remake is better
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Post by ovenkitty on Apr 28, 2019 22:34:37 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard where are you seeing that? From the Konami site (https://www.konami.com/games/50th/ac/castlevania/us/en/): "This KONAMI Castlevania Collection is designed to be a collection around the origins of the historic franchise. Included is a unique eBook that has details provided by developers, artists and other inspired by the Castlevania legacy. Released as part of the KONAMI 50th Anniversary celebration, now the best time to relive these timeless classics that helped define the platformer genre." I did see the original post that had "first" in it, but this is all I could find on that page now.
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Post by ReySol on Apr 29, 2019 1:26:12 GMT -6
I have seen "first" on social media: Castlevania page on Facebook, the post was re-posted by Konami on their Facebook page.
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Post by Zechs on Apr 29, 2019 10:07:09 GMT -6
Odd they didn't use the Castlevania ReBirth: The Adventure for the collection.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 29, 2019 21:32:05 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard where are you seeing that? From the Konami site (https://www.konami.com/games/50th/ac/castlevania/us/en/): Yeah as ReySol said, their social media stuff, specifically the Facebook page for Castlevania
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Post by RichterB on May 3, 2019 21:21:41 GMT -6
New Konami Twitter post from the last 10 hours: "Castlevania Bloodlines is coming as part of the #Castlevania Collection! Grab this initial series of the classic-vanias on May 16th on Switch, XBOX, PlayStation and PC/Steam for $19.99"
They said "initial" here. Interesting marketing going on. Either it's all in error, or something is up. Either way, I think this collection is worth getting whether there are more or not.
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[TI1]"In his own right he is a God yet he tries to be a man and in that denies his own greatness"
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Post by roguedragon05 on May 4, 2019 5:17:52 GMT -6
Odd they didn't use the Castlevania ReBirth: The Adventure for the collection. Truth is that individually they could probably sell each ReBirth game for at least $10, probably more like $15. So they wouldn't put them in a $20 package, I kinda figured there wouldn't be any ReBirth since they didn't put the Gradius ReBirth in the Arcade collection too. HOWEVER this does lend support to the idea that the ReBirth games will eventually be resold, I mean if it can happen for Castlevania Bloodlines (and I'm guessing Contra: Hard Corps) then there is hope for the ReBirth titles, and hopefully alot sooner.
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RichterB
Loyal Familiar
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Post by RichterB on May 4, 2019 9:43:46 GMT -6
It includes songs from the following games:
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hyugakojiro
Loyal Familiar
"Art thou prepared?"
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hyugakojiro
"Art thou prepared?"
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Post by hyugakojiro on May 9, 2019 16:52:06 GMT -6
We'll be playing this game today in one week! Still haven't made up my mind whether or not to start by replaying Super Castlevania IV or starting my first run of Bloodlines. Decisions, decisions...
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RichterB
Loyal Familiar
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Post by RichterB on May 10, 2019 14:14:44 GMT -6
We'll be playing this game today in one week! Still haven't made up my mind whether or not to start by replaying Super Castlevania IV or starting my first run of Bloodlines. Decisions, decisions... Well, the two were sort of semi-rivals back in the day. They're cousins, like A Link to the Past compared to Link's Awakening. Super Castlevania IV is the easier, moodier game and is more technically impressive in terms of sound and visuals, while Bloodlines is its harder but more colorful, zany cousin that uses its more limited technology in super-creative ways. The levels are designed very densely, with new things to see all the time. Both are great. Both have the whip-swinging over gaps mechanic, but handle it differently. (You no longer need rings to do it, but you also have to commit to your landing when doing so.) (I'm speaking of John; Eric has his own set of unique mechanics.) Super Castlevania IV has a bit tighter, more modern and versatile controls, while Bloodlines feels a bit more like Castlevania X68000. You can only attack diagonally upward during a jump, as I recall.
Bloodlines, well, sort of feels like a half-step hybrid or compromise between Super Castlevania IV and Rondo of Blood. That's part of what makes it so interesting. I don't know if any of this helps. Just some background info. I will say this, though, you can't really judge one off the other, because each is trying to accomplish different things. So jumping between the two doesn't help other than to do a historical compare and contrast, and one won't really prepare you for the other.
EDIT: I wonder if the informational ebook included will go past Bloodlines, or just cover up to it?
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