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Post by purifyweirdshard on Feb 19, 2019 13:49:19 GMT -6
Yeah I remember you doing that, it was in #spoilers iirc, but I still just can't picture it being the reality lol
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Feb 19, 2019 15:26:08 GMT -6
mourningxsun , I really, really, *really* want your napkin math to be true. Lucky you I remembered that I actually know how to use discord and just looked up the old math. Here's the spark notes and you're welcome to critique as needed. "The map size that was dug up for ROTN was a 200x100 grid. So now I'll use the grid size vs. the rooms used for all the other igavanias to come up with some numbers. OoE and PoR will just be the castle, not the whole game. SotN: 50x60 grid. 942 rooms. 31.4% utilized HoD: 59x29 grid. 674 rooms 39.392% utilized AoS: 50x36 grid. 928 rooms. 51.55555%.... utilized DoS: 54x40 grid. 1023 rooms. 47.3611111%.... utilized PoR: 51x37 grid. 486 rooms. 25.755% utilized OoE: 50x35 grid. 498 rooms. 28.457% utilized So, these are the standards of map utilization that Iga has set, and what I'm going to base guesses on. So. If Bloodstained's map utilization is equal to his most sparse map, being PoR's castle, than Bloodstained will be 4846 rooms big. If Bloodstained's map was absolutely barren and half of that at ~12.88% utilization/2423 rooms (basically 100% unlikely imo), then that would still be bigger than SotN's combined castle A and B room total of 1890 If Bloodstained matched the densest map in AoS, the game will be 9700 rooms big If Bloodstained's utilization is the perfect average of all the games (37.32%), then we're looking at a 7022 room game That's probably a bit unrealistic to be honest so I'd go for the most sparse number and then make it even smaller. So my personal guess is probably around the upper 3000s range for room count"
I believe it was gestured at that there may be 'soft' usage of the procedural generation engine for the dungeon in stretch goals being utilized in non-key spaces. It may be that the huge space allotted, if this is true at all, is to give the PG room to 'play'. If that is the case, I would argue that there may be far less rooms.
I am hoping this usage is immensely soft in its touch (and now, a massive spiral staircase for no reason! or other 'traverse' like structures that show up randomly and connect to the scripted area), as it conjures memories of Chasm and how it's solid gameplay was marred by the time commitment to what ended up a detriment to the game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 15:39:41 GMT -6
Yikes, I hope so too. I wince whenever I hear "procedurally-generated" and "Metroidvania" in the same paragraph. Those two belong together about as much as orange juice and chocolate syrup.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Feb 19, 2019 15:40:07 GMT -6
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Post by mourningxsun on Feb 19, 2019 15:40:31 GMT -6
Yeah I remember you doing that, it was in #spoilers iirc, but I still just can't picture it being the reality lol The numbers don't lie! lol --- Now Mr. Welldone, regarding the roguelite dungeon mode, I really don't think they'd need to utilize main game map space for it. Also there wasn't any data for modes outside of the main story in the files, so I doubt that what you propose is the case. Unless you just think that the castle is being procedurally generated as a whole, because it's not. PG is just getting used to make the textures varied. That's all. |
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Feb 19, 2019 15:43:25 GMT -6
I tend to read this stuff while chugging out my own numbers, and so haven't watched any videos or anything that takes a large amount of time. I'll have to sit and watch that when I get back to home base. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Feb 20, 2019 13:13:00 GMT -6
 Looking again at the Gebel comparison released a few months ago, in the trailer he looks different from even that - something almost between these two images? I'm not sure if I'd lean toward better or worse, but he doesn't look bad at all.  What I think we could be seeing too here is "dialogue scene" Gebel vs "full cutscene Gebel", kind of how as before characters looked different in those respective contexts, but I'm not sure. The ideal I was hoping for was that they could manage to make dialogue scene models = cutscene models, but if they both look good while still being different, that's fine too. And actually, you know what? "Dialogue" Gebel up there looks...quite like a dialogue "portrait" of old. Very cool if they can get everyone to that, on top of somehow keeping customization items and voicing. Bonus, here's what he looked like in the 2018 demo cutscene.  |
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Post by dareka on Feb 20, 2019 14:48:24 GMT -6
Everything a computer does is, in a way, "procedural generation": it follows an algorithm to arrive at the desired result. Even something as simple as calculating the damage dealt by your weapon on an enemy is thus procedural. The term, as its being used here, is shorthand for "procedural generation of graphical assets", pretty much the only things that are not done through an algorithm. When you follow an algorithm to generate levels and such, the term is usually just"random dungeon generation," as "procedurally generated random dungeons" would be something of an oxymoron, as it's redundant. Remember: graphics and sound assets are not done by following an algorithm - they're done by an artist. Procedural asset generation takes some pressure from the artist by automating menial tasks, allowing the person to be more productive. |
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Post by Enkeria on Feb 21, 2019 2:06:01 GMT -6
Everything a computer does is, in a way, "procedural generation": it follows an algorithm to arrive at the desired result. Even something as simple as calculating the damage dealt by your weapon on an enemy is thus procedural. The term, as its being used here, is shorthand for "procedural generation of graphical assets", pretty much the only things that are not done through an algorithm. When you follow an algorithm to generate levels and such, the term is usually just"random dungeon generation," as "procedurally generated random dungeons" would be something of an oxymoron, as it's redundant. Remember: graphics and sound assets are not done by following an algorithm - they're done by an artist. Procedural asset generation takes some pressure from the artist by automating menial tasks, allowing the person to be more productive. Speaking of graphic randomization. Were there any mention about it being used in the Rougelike dungeon mode? How far of a stretch would it to believe it would be the most random category of the modes? How do you guys think logically this mode would work best out of what we know so far? |
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Post by Clear on Feb 21, 2019 2:21:32 GMT -6
I remember reading some article about procedural generation of background scenery. It mentions an example of how on every play-through a particular background object, such as a pillar for example, will have certain details about it differ, such as whether or not this pillar has a crack, the crack is positioned somewhere else, the entire top-half of the pillar looks like it broke off, etc. The main point being that each play-through will be a "new experience" just with these relatively subtle changes and not in the degree of, say, entire platforming structures and waypoints changed.
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Post by Scars Unseen on Feb 21, 2019 4:41:47 GMT -6
I don't think Bloodstained is using its procedural tools like that, at least not for the primary game mode. It would be possible to do so, of course, but there's two issues with relying on procedural generation that way. - Running texture generating algorithms at run time is inefficient when it isn't needed. It requires processing power that can potentially increase loading times between areas. Potentially worth it for a game style that benefits from varying visual details between playthroughs like the roguelike mode, but not for a set experience like the main game will be.
- The reason stated in the update about procedural tools for their existence was to take some of the burden off of the artists. But the benefits of that is diminished if that comes at the complete loss of the artists' control over how the areas look. From that standpoint, the greatest time to use such a tool is when the levels are being detailed by the art team, so they can tweak the results and bake in the appearance they want.
Think of it like an automated wallpaper generator for your house. If you could, with the flip of a button, change the way your walls look, that could be a great time saver if you're trying to renovate. But the same functionality that worked differently every time you walked into the room without your input would be far less valuable, especially if you're expecting important guests. The last thing you would want would be for your guests to show up and be faced with neon green wallpaper with pink portraits of David Hasselhoff on them.
And while the algorithm itself can be tweaked to provide results within preset parameters, any loss of control is counterproductive when you're already tweaking shading and lighting with a particular look for each area in mind. Not being able to see the final result means not knowing if the lighting is going to look right, which means not knowing what you're game actually looks like. Fine for something that is already generating content on the fly, but not ideal for what is intended to be a curated experience.
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Post by Galamoth on Feb 21, 2019 9:10:56 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the closest thing we'll see to "random" procedural generation will be in the Roguelike Mode.
As far as I can claim to know (and I don't know more than anyone else), the assets procedurally-generated in the main mode will remain the same each time.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Feb 21, 2019 9:22:24 GMT -6
The same each time, and the same for everyone. The generation is performed and kept in-house during development, not in our respective consoles/PCs when we play it.
That is however by necessity most likely not the case for the roguelike mode, which would use a probably completely different thing to make unique levels each time. That "generation" wouldn't be much like the detail-making generation they used for assets during the game's development, and it may even keep the structure of the main game, just with the areas/rooms mashed together in different ways - kind of like how the Harmony of Despair maps were built.
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Post by mourningxsun on Feb 21, 2019 10:51:47 GMT -6
Everything a computer does is, in a way, "procedural generation": it follows an algorithm to arrive at the desired result. Even something as simple as calculating the damage dealt by your weapon on an enemy is thus procedural. The term, as its being used here, is shorthand for "procedural generation of graphical assets", pretty much the only things that are not done through an algorithm. When you follow an algorithm to generate levels and such, the term is usually just"random dungeon generation," as "procedurally generated random dungeons" would be something of an oxymoron, as it's redundant. Remember: graphics and sound assets are not done by following an algorithm - they're done by an artist. Procedural asset generation takes some pressure from the artist by automating menial tasks, allowing the person to be more productive. Speaking of graphic randomization. Were there any mention about it being used in the Rougelike dungeon mode? How far of a stretch would it to believe it would be the most random category of the modes? How do you guys think logically this mode would work best out of what we know so far? Rougelike mode hasn't been discussed at all since the kickstarter, but by definition it will be the most random mode. Logically I'm picturing something similar to Bloodborne's Chalice Dungeons. |
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Feb 21, 2019 11:04:18 GMT -6
I loved the Chalice Dungeons. God, I hope it's like the Chalice Dungeon with overpowered shards and gear behind ridiculous foes.
Only a few months ago they discovered the only seed so far with a wandering boss. Let that sink in...
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Feb 21, 2019 11:15:18 GMT -6
I wasn't overly fond of chalice dungeons for the first several I did and so lost interest, unfortunately, but I love Bloodborne. As neat as seeing some of the new bosses was, I couldn't stand just getting "tomb mold" for my trouble each time lol.
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Feb 21, 2019 11:24:11 GMT -6
You say that, but victory over Amygdala from hell in a cursed tomb where your health is halved and he does sanity-breaking damage is a rather nice feeling.
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Feb 21, 2019 11:24:43 GMT -6
The gems you get are just ridiculous, too. Like, over the top is an understatement.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Feb 21, 2019 12:06:11 GMT -6
I'm glad to know you played the game, because it had crossed my mind as something I thought you'd enjoy lol.
The "frenzy" status effect was never a good time. You are correct that satisfaction in that game is like nothing else. I was able to beat everything solo except Ludwig, and apparently the Henriett NPC summon is preeetty good there.
Perhaps we need a Bloodborne topic. haha
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Post by Mr. Welldone on Feb 21, 2019 13:20:52 GMT -6
True, but for the purposes of this thread, the Chalice Dungeons do serve a fine example of how a PG system could be made to provide a really fun experience.
The level where the (I forget his name) lightning beast is on in the 'plot' chalices is immersive with the lightning crackling in the air. Also, women who laugh, turn invisible, and kill you fill me with palpable dread and make me flail about with my Threaded Cane.
If we can get a Bloodstained Translation of this, that's be amazing. Even Timespinner (basically a one-man show) managed a diverting PG dungeon that, with minimal assets, proved entertaining enough for a couple hours of fun.
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