Galamoth
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[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
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[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 3, 2019 12:16:03 GMT -6
miyalys Yeah, what happened really is too bad. I do hope they'll provide a more in-depth explanation. There's no doubt that the final game itself will be great, but I'm thinking Enkeria said it best; if they have a sizable budget from the sales of Bloodstained copies, they should at least consider ports for Mac & Linux in the future.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 3, 2019 12:20:51 GMT -6
I agree with the general sentiment. I think we'll be hearing more from them soon. The team is great about passing along our thoughts/concern and the two-way communication.
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Post by neff on Jan 4, 2019 7:05:22 GMT -6
Just wondering, but has wayfoward ever worked on mac and linux games?
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Post by browren on Jan 4, 2019 8:30:42 GMT -6
Just wondering, but has wayfoward ever worked on mac and linux games? A quick look at their games list on their Wikipedia page says they've only ever done one Mac game, which isn't available anymore, and never published anything on Linux.
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 7, 2019 21:33:37 GMT -6
Just wondering, but has wayfoward ever worked on mac and linux games? A quick look at their games list on their Wikipedia page says they've only ever done one Mac game, which isn't available anymore, and never published anything on Linux. Never a good sign. Now I suspect that, even if they do release a Linux version, I may still have to run it inside a Wine virtual desktop to get it to play nicely with my system. (Several years ago, I actually gathered a list of common mistakes novices make when porting games to Linux for the first time, such as misbehaving when run on a multi-monitor desktop, only offering windowed modes that match resolutions the desktop is allowed to change resolution to, assuming joystick #1 is a viable choice to require, storing game files in an un-hidden folder inside $HOME, etc.)
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 7, 2019 21:59:55 GMT -6
This is why you need to do this cross compiles early and often to catch this kind of coding mistakes.
Given that it's the OS that's responsible for servicing requests case-insensitively, that the Playstation 4's OS is based on FreeBSD (which was developed with the assumption of case-sensitivity, like every non-MacOS Unixy OS), and that the PS4 doesn't even allow you to be case-insensitive when naming firmware updates on a FAT32/exFAT USB stick (which has prompted various support requests by Windows users), I seriously doubt that it's case-insensitivity that's the problem if they're still supporting the PS4.
(And who knows what the Switch does. It's apparently using a custom Microkernel OS which borrows code from FreeBSD.)
That aside, this (and the ability to optimize the on-disk layout for minimal seeking during loading) is why packfiles were invented... so you can minimize your platform-specific code for the filesystem into an abstraction layer, just like you do with any other platform-specific code.
Once you've opened up a handle for each packfile (of which, you have as few as reasonably possible for you use case), you don't need any more interaction with the filesystem's path semantics and can just use your own custom filesystem within the packfile which behaves the same on all platforms... thus reducing the potential for bugs to creep in.
Heck, a common way to do packfiles is just to use Zip files with custom extensions. Tons of tooling, tons of libraries, trivially easy to control the order the files are present in or control which files are and aren't compressed and the trade-off between packing time and final size (eg. development vs. release builds)... and easy as pie to rework incrementally at the cost of reduced read performance if you're iterating on a file or two but don't want to have to rebuild the entire packfile (which is great for the edit-compile-test cycle).
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Post by raptor85 on Jan 8, 2019 3:40:17 GMT -6
Good point, I didn't think about that, since the game is already coming out on ps4/switch it's actually REQUIRED to have *nix compliant code and GL4.5 compliant shaders, that makes it even more baffling.
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Post by browren on Jan 8, 2019 8:24:39 GMT -6
Anybody want to place bets about this being some third-party DRM "solution" that doesn't work anywhere but Windows?
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 8, 2019 11:56:12 GMT -6
Anybody want to place bets about this being some third-party DRM "solution" that doesn't work anywhere but Windows? Epic store exlcusive incoming when? When is this update finally going to happen? I'm quite sick of following this endless charade, made all the worse knowing they won't actually refund things like a honest campaign would do (hello VITA refunds). Question
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Post by ssokolow on Jan 8, 2019 19:03:28 GMT -6
Epic store exlcusive incoming when? When is this update finally going to happen? I'm quite sick of following this endless charade, made all the worse knowing they won't actually refund things like a honest campaign would do (hello VITA refunds). Question
According to the official response, they refunded Vita backers before they used up all of the Kickstarter money, but it's now all gone.
Personally, I'd accept "defer my reward until I either change my mind or you make enough from post-release sales to refund me", but that's just me.
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 8, 2019 21:07:54 GMT -6
Anything is better than the current stance for sure.
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Post by browren on Jan 9, 2019 12:23:02 GMT -6
Cancelling two undoubtedly niche operating systems as platforms is NOT the same as “getting rid of things left and right”. Yes they also cancelled development for dead platforms like the WiiU and Vita but we also gained one in the form of the very much alive and popular Nintendo Switch. Or, from the perspective of those "niche" platform backers, their money was taken and spent on the Switch version instead, because 505 saw bigger dollar signs there and figured they'd weather the criticism, and anyone buying a retail copy might not even hear about it by the time the game's out. It's not like anyone will be permitted to continue complaining here, and who's going to actually dig back six months into a BBS to see how development was done for the Switch cart they just picked up at Target?
Now, devs are one thing, they tend to not like it when people think of them as dishonest and/or incompetent.
Businesspeople, on the other hand, only care where the next dollar is coming from, and if they have to go back on their word or lie to maximize profits, they're going to. I'd bet you 10 times what I backed at, that dumping Linux and Mac was not a decision made by a developer. It should be obvious from the way Question responded that it wasn't a dev he was waiting to talk to about it. Those are management's words, not dev words.
Honestly, that's why people are so angry. It's not a technical issue. It's a business issue being passed off as a technical issue.
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Post by clivethebarker on Jan 9, 2019 14:20:28 GMT -6
Yeah, most people won't know, but I have enough friends in real life and online to make sure that people will have all the gory details of how the publisher has shafted Mac/Linux users. The lost sales will be greater than the amount I backed I'd easily bet.
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Post by Aztec on Jan 11, 2019 2:55:45 GMT -6
Cancelling two undoubtedly niche operating systems as platforms is NOT the same as “getting rid of things left and right”. Yes they also cancelled development for dead platforms like the WiiU and Vita but we also gained one in the form of the very much alive and popular Nintendo Switch. Or, from the perspective of those "niche" platform backers, their money was taken and spent on the Switch version instead, because 505 saw bigger dollar signs there and figured they'd weather the criticism, and anyone buying a retail copy might not even hear about it by the time the game's out. It's not like anyone will be permitted to continue complaining here, and who's going to actually dig back six months into a BBS to see how development was done for the Switch cart they just picked up at Target?
Now, devs are one thing, they tend to not like it when people think of them as dishonest and/or incompetent.
Businesspeople, on the other hand, only care where the next dollar is coming from, and if they have to go back on their word or lie to maximize profits, they're going to. I'd bet you 10 times what I backed at, that dumping Linux and Mac was not a decision made by a developer. It should be obvious from the way Question responded that it wasn't a dev he was waiting to talk to about it. Those are management's words, not dev words.
Honestly, that's why people are so angry. It's not a technical issue. It's a business issue being passed off as a technical issue.
Im not even sure what you're trying to say here. Are you implying they should've stuck to their guns and deliver this game in 2019 for the WiiU or something? A console that was disconnected from life support two years ago? They weren lying. They clearly overscoped and thought they could do it. They effed up but they didnt lie.
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Post by browren on Jan 11, 2019 7:19:00 GMT -6
Im not even sure what you're trying to say here. Are you implying they should've stuck to their guns and deliver this game in 2019 for the WiiU or something? A console that was disconnected from life support two years ago? They weren lying. They clearly overscoped and thought they could do it. They effed up but they didnt lie. I am saying that they had an obligation to fulfil for Wii U and Vita support, and they instead chose to return money to affected parties, to get them out of that obligation.
They didn't overscope, they overspent. They have an obligation to fulfil for Linux and Mac backers, and not only do they not have the budget to do what was promised, they haven't got any money for refunds to get them out of their obligation, and the response was basically "sorry, but we don't care about your platform."
It became a lie when "middleware issues" were blamed without evidence that there are any. There aren't middleware issues, that's a management-speak excuse. There are - as they admitted - budget and scheduling issues, and they don't have the resources to deliver what they promised. I think it's likely that nobody did anything on Linux or Mac until recently, and that's not "intending to support" those platforms, that's ignoring them.
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Galamoth
Ancient Legion
Eternal Guardian
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
Posts: 3,402
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Galamoth
[TI2] Boss of the Floating Catacombs. Hopes nobody finds his hidden Beryl Circlet.
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Post by Galamoth on Jan 11, 2019 8:50:23 GMT -6
I am saying that they had an obligation to fulfil for Wii U and Vita support, and they instead chose to return money to affected parties, to get them out of that obligation. Backers were never the only ones looking for a return on their investment. Because Nintendo & Sony cut support of those respective systems, it makes sense that Bloodstained's developers dropped those versions. That's why the Wii U & Vita versions are off, with the Switch replacing the former. Neither of those platforms could guarantee a profit to help cover costs, whereas the Switch certainly has due to the explosion of sales back in 2017. In that manner, they still fulfilled their "obligation" to Nintendo-system backers.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 11, 2019 9:14:38 GMT -6
A note on obligations, if someone missed this post from me: bloodstained.forums.net/post/62047To recap, I think it's fair to keep in mind that Mac/Linux is a promise from a team of Deep Silver + Inti Creates, who delivered the same for Mighty no. 9. Inti Creates and with them assumedly at the same time Deep Silver was cut from the project in mid 2016. At the time of our project's conception, it was not clear/expected that things would go so excruciatingly badly with Mn9 and its promises (many of which are still undelivered to this day with no communication, including platform delivery). In comparison, rather than shoddy ports and empty promises of them thereof, Bloodstained is upfront and quick with the actual reality and honesty of what they will/will not do. I have great respect for that difference in communication and Iga owning up the responsibility to make that stand and not throw collaborators under the bus as he does it. Even the root problems I'm posing with Inti Creates/DS are things he took ownership of and made something great out of, and that was separating them as entities and putting their development on Curse of the Moon. Knowing/seeing this, it does not absolve these groups from responsibility, no, perhaps not, but it gives a lot more background and context to the struggle of keeping responsibilities rather than just "they lied". The mass of stretch goals and content promised otherwise by an Inti/Deep Silver team are all still somehow on the table.
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Post by XombieMike on Jan 12, 2019 10:33:21 GMT -6
写真で見ると日本人(?)のスタッフさんも多いんですね。応援してます! はい、でも彼らは忙しいです。あなたが必要なら私は彼らの注意を引くでしょう
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Post by dareka on Jan 12, 2019 13:05:59 GMT -6
写真で見ると日本人(?)のスタッフさんも多いんですね。応援してます! はい、でも彼らは忙しいです。あなたが必要なら私は彼らの注意を引くでしょう warthecheese さん XombieMike さんの意図した返事内容とは 「その通りです。スタッフの方々は今大変忙しいのですが、ご要望があれば私が取り次ぎを致します。」 ということです。この時期、スタッフの方々には中々フォーラムを確認する余裕はないが、フォーラムの管理者である彼からのメッセージなら確認してくれるでしょう、という意味です。 Translation: warthecheese, What XombieMike meant to say is "Yes. But they're very busy right now. If you need, I can get their attention." What he means is that at this point in time the staff doesn't have much time to check the forums, but if he - the forum administrator - contacts them, they'll pay attention. XombieMike dude, what Google Translate had you say is "if you are necessary, I will distract them." Never trust Google Translate for Japanese.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 12, 2019 13:29:42 GMT -6
dareka, what Google gave me for it was "Yes, but they are busy. I will draw their attention if you need it".
I think warthecheese's reply was mostly just a rhetorical of support haha
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