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Post by rav4ishing on Aug 20, 2018 15:42:11 GMT -6
One more thing though: at some point they need to decide on when the product is good enough. Coming from a comparable industry, developers that are obsessed about their product will never feel the product is done. There will always be something that isn't right or needs to be tweaked (as much as we all love SotN, I'm sure we all have a laundry list of tweaks that game needs).
Since online game stores like PSN have made it easy to download and apply patches, the team will need to decide on their backlog of To-Do items which ones must go in with the first release, versus patching later on version 1.x and beyond. I just hope there is someone on the team that is pushing for this process so that fans aren't kept waiting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 16:07:14 GMT -6
I don't agree with the oft-repeated statement that "the delay is fine." The delay is not fine for everyone. It certainly wasn't fine for players on two consoles, and it's not fine for people who would rather play the game sooner. Releasing the game when it is perfect, because one believes that SOTN was perfect and ROTN must be its equal, is not a realistic burden to place on the developers. Nor is it fair to the players who paid into the project years ago and just want to play the game. The Kickstarter was a long time ago. Curse of the Moon, whatever one thinks of it, turned out to not be what we expected (a prequel). No one is willing to commit to a release date. Enthusiasm and excitement can easily turn into disappointment when there is a perception that something is off. This is not where we want to be!
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Post by Nezuto on Aug 20, 2018 16:24:27 GMT -6
Yet releasing the game earlier would most likely piss off many more than can be counted and that could damage anything to do with the game going forward. More often than not, the same ones yammering for earlier release due to impatience (many, not all in that group) are typically the same ones that'll go onto every medium they can to trash the title 'for not waiting and releasing the game too quick'.
Can't satisfy anyone at this rate and now I can really see, firsthand, why many devs feel so pressured on things and make many mistakes. Most of us that are ok with the delay have been gaming for many many years and know that this type of thing does tend to happen and sometimes it pays off, other times not so much.
Yes, our hard earned money has gone into this project and yes that means we have some type of say/pull, but trust the devs. At least they aren't saying screw it all and going pachinko or wanting to put the real ending behind a paywall/locking content that's already in the game or outright running with the money like other major and indie devs have.
Things take time and they don't have the largest team in the world, on top of the fact that there may be many on the team that aren't familiar with this whole ordeal like multi-platform. Let them learn and work and we will see what happens or rush rush rush and then complain when things aren't finished.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 16:35:58 GMT -6
Oh I know what you mean, and I like to think that I have a somewhat realistic idea of project pitfalls and risks. But the feeling in the air, at least for me, is that it is taking a very long time with no target or goal in sight. Think about all the talk about releasing a release window in a future update. No one actually cares about releasing a release window, because that's not exciting. Owning and playing the game is exciting, and knowing when you can do so (instead of all this release secrecy and delay announcements) is exciting. And, frankly, knowing that your trust has been rewarded is exciting. To which some might say, "My trust has been rewarded when the quality is higher than its current state." So, again, I do know what people mean when they say that the delay is fine. But I also think that bad press from COTM (which confused the general gaming public), and bad press from however many delays (depending on how you count them) and platform cancellations, cannot be good for the project. Announcing a date, meeting it, and patching as needed after that date have always been what I preferred. Most seem to disagree, and I sort of understand their reasoning. But I would rather have played it in the promised 2018, trusting the patching process, than risk seeing it slip to the PS5 era. Hopefully, that's not a possibility.
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Post by Astaroth on Aug 20, 2018 19:24:18 GMT -6
im hoping anyone affected byt the vita thing can find a different way to play it by the time it comes out cause i think its worth not missing out on, but mine will just go to a different system as for the delay, cool, that means more time to polish and make things exceptional, have at it
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Post by chilling24 on Aug 20, 2018 20:19:29 GMT -6
Im not surprised by both news but i offer my condolences to the vita owners, i do hope that you guys find another platform to play with and i dont reccomend the refund. This has been quite an experience and journey that you were all a part of and even though this might be frustrating i ask that you guys stick around for the final product we all had a part on making it a reality. On the delay, i am perfectly fine on waiting a little longer if it’s getting its bugs fixed and taking our recommendations. That being said, just because i am patient that doesn’t mean everyone else is or should be, and they have good reasons. Delay it till it is more than good enough and release it when it’s perfect. Be wary, with all the recent updates and demos i don’t think many of the community backers can calmly take more future delays. Try to make this one the last delay and keep up the good work!
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Post by lambert on Aug 20, 2018 21:42:16 GMT -6
I did not quite understand, but what prevents to sell on PS Vita only a digital copy of the game?
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Post by yulia11 on Aug 20, 2018 22:53:51 GMT -6
I'm seeing a lot of people both here and in the kickstarter comments saying that the delay is fine and that it was expected. I agree that the delay is fine but I find it very disrespectful to all backers when they're not even giving us a specific window. We shouldn't just swallow everything they give us and play nice without demanding something, and a more specific window than 2019 isn't asking for much. I love IGA and this project but it just pisses me off when people just accept the "sometime in 2019" date, at this point we shouldn't tolerate that. Do remember that the game ould have been released by the end of this year if quality as the same as the demo. This means most of the stage could have finished gameplay wise by endof 2018.
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Post by sylver on Aug 21, 2018 1:36:00 GMT -6
I am not surprised.. since I had backened an Vita copy extra myself.. but just a half year ago, I thought that I won't use the Vita anymore, so I have already [switched].
I even made my Switch Copy as my main physical and my PS4 copy the digital.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Aug 21, 2018 7:48:31 GMT -6
Well, that is some unfortunate news, and i have my two cents on that. Random picture i found to illustrate what i just wrote ABOUT THE DELAY
First of all, i do understand their reasoning behind delaying to 2019. The game's quality was heavily criticized and it seems that they COULD release the game as it is now, but it wouldn't be really satisfying for everyone, so, they decided it is best to delay to improve the game's quality. That is good, and it shows commitment, because we need to understand that delays doesn't add to their reputation, nor money. A delay is a delay, and it only damages the game at everyone's views and the DEV team reputation. I'm sure they don't want to do that and it would be much better if they could start selling the game already and making proper advertisments. BLOODSTAINED SIZE AND QUALITY
We also need to understand that this is a small, indie team building a game that is a spiritual sucessor, bigger in size than what a huge towering company was continuously able to do over the years and even so, such company that should-not-be-named released several of such games with bugs and late fixes. People sometimes compare it to Hollow Knight and others, but that is not fair. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is an AAA game made by a small team of indie developers with, let's be fair, only ONE experienced developer putting his reputation in line to make things done. A DELAY IS ALWAYS BAD FOR FANS
A delay, as i said up there, is a delay. We all wanted to be playing the game already and i'm not saying "a delay is fine". It isn't. Delays shows lack of proper planning. When you have a set date for something and you need to delay it, you failed on the way. There is no denying that. COMMUNICATION
Over the last months, the dev team communication got a bit of a bad turn. The lack of proper information really wasn't good, but i think they are trying to amend for that now. Delay was mentioned just now most probably because they were trying really hard to NOT delay the game, because they know the bad impact and negativity that this can have on backers, fans and overall people. The "Might Number 9" ghost will ALWAYS be on their shoulders and that is not an easy ghost to exorcize. STRETCH GOALS, PORTS, VITA
That's one thing everyone really needs to understand: Kickstarter requires money. As long as money keeps going in, you need to keep doing promises, that's how it works. The huge amount of ports / stretch goals was the ONLY WAY to raise more money for the project. I understand why people criticize about the sheer number of stretch goals, that surely made the game much more complex to develop, that was the only way to raise more money and make the project bigger and more important. CLOSING COMMENTS
I don't like the fact that we got another delay, and i don't believe anyone really lkes that. But i understand their reasoning and i will always remember Mr Shigeru Miyamoto's quote: "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"
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Post by Glaz on Aug 21, 2018 7:52:33 GMT -6
I do wonder if this delay is to add polish to the game? (not that it doesn't need it) or they planned originally set the release towards the end of fall/ beginning of winter 2018 and they don't want the game to compete with something like smash brother ultimate.Another possible Iga must really want this game to be released on a March 20 since he missed it in 2018 he wants it to be released in 2019. Regardless a more detailed update on where the game is would be nice.
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Aug 21, 2018 8:24:21 GMT -6
Most of the time, I agree with the speculation from dareka about updates, but this time, to me, "a year" seems like too big a window for a project that has been in development for 3 years straight. Time estimation is rather meaningless in the initial development stage because there are so many things could happen. But if the main game is completed, it shouldn't be hard to estimate the time window for polishing and adjustment, including consuming all the feedbacks, optimizing for a specific console, etc. etc, since there shouldn't be much to be changed, unless: 1. They need to modify the game's basic building blocks for some critical problems.I highly doubt this possibility though, anyone that has ever been in software development knows this only happens when the manager knows nothing and doesn't care about the development at all. Or, more simply, they haven't finished the main game yet. 2. The alpha demo released this year is so poorly received that they have to redo a lot of things from the ground up.The game is finished, but it's not people wanted. 3. The main game is not completed yet.I hate to say it, but this is my guess right now. All in all, it's not about the "accuracy" of the estimation, it's about whether the product manager has a confident schedule of the product.The "2019" statement, however, is not a positive sign. As for the delay itself, I'm personally fine with 2019 (or even longer as long as the project keeps going & has the funds), but I do agree that we should know more about the progress on the project, at least right now, all the vague statements would only cause backlash on the project, which we don't want to see. As a fan and a backer myself, I would love to hear anything about the project, not only triumphs but also difficulties. About Vita, it's not surprising at all, but I seriously doubt anything that has been done about that platform, including the engine port.
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Post by Brainiac on Aug 21, 2018 9:14:44 GMT -6
...i will always remember late Mr Shigeru Miyamoto's quote: "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"Um...late? He's not dead.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Aug 21, 2018 9:29:02 GMT -6
Brainiac my bad lol messed up with Satoru Iwata
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Post by dareka on Aug 21, 2018 11:33:09 GMT -6
OK, so, I see a lot comments saying that the delay is worrisome/not a good sign, and such.
Well, the question is "not a good sign" in what sense?
If you mean that the game could end up being released very late into 2019, I'll concede that's a possibility, albeit unlikely.
But we all know a game is late only until it's late, and a bad game is bad until the end of time.
If you mean the game could end up being vaporware... I think it's clear it isn't at this point.
So, is it worrying in terms of the quality of the game?
Considering that the game system seems to be fully implemented and was well-received all around, I think we can scratch that off the list of potential worries, more so if the delay is tied to implementing some of the different suggestions made by users.
What's left is the quality of the graphics, the number of bugs, and the quality on each platform.
These are both issues that can be fixed, given enough development time; so I'm not worried about this at all. The PC version might be buggier than the others, possibly, but also easier to patch.
So, when you start to look at what could potentially go wrong, the worst that could happen, in my view, is a release in the second half of 2019... it might be frustrating for many backers, which is understandable, but it's also not the end of the world.
Now, about the devs not knowing how to manage their project, specifically because of the delays the game has suffered, but also because no release window was given beyond 2019... well, here's my two cents.
This actually happens a lot in game development. Games being delayed two or even three years is nothing new. "Yeah, I know," you might say. But the delays you know about are not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the delays you don't hear about, which are the majority, believe it or not. Games are often delayed a couple of years from when they were scheduled to be released, and to rave reviews, at that (I have first hand experience with this). What happens is that devs don't normally show them until they're at a point like what we saw in the beta demo.
Imagine that the game had been revealed in the spring, and then shown publicly for the first time at E3. The release windows would have been "late 2018" and then "2019." Would anybody be worried about the game at that point? No, people are only worried because they've been following the game since the crowdfunding campaign. They know the game switched developers causing a year-long delay, and now they know about this delay. That's the only reason why people are worried.
Now as to something being wrong with the dev team's management skills because they said "2019" - a twelve month window - guys, this doesn't mean they don't have a narrower window they're working with - or possibly two different windows, depending on how something they're working on right now goes.
The reason why there would be uncertainty is the size of the game in relation to the size of the dev team. If you're a big publisher you can give yourself the luxury of publicly putting out a release window because you can put more people on the project if the need arises. A small dev team means they can't get to doing X if they don't finish Y first, etc. It's a lot more complicated than it might seem.
I'm sure the team is working to have a firm release window, and then a release date, as one of their priorities.
So, having experienced the game development project first-hand several times, seeing the project's progress and the team's approach, am I worried? No. Much less with the Vita version out of the picture.
Take it for what it's worth.
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Post by rav4ishing on Aug 21, 2018 11:37:26 GMT -6
Most of the time, I agree with the speculation from dareka about updates, but this time, to me, "a year" seems like too big a window for a project that has been in development for 3 years straight. Time estimation is rather meaningless in the initial development stage because there are so many things could happen. But if the main game is completed, it shouldn't be hard to estimate the time window for polishing and adjustment, including consuming all the feedbacks, optimizing for a specific console, etc. etc, since there shouldn't be much to be changed, unless: 1. They need to modify the game's basic building blocks for some critical problems.I highly doubt this possibility though, anyone that has ever been in software development knows this only happens when the manager knows nothing and doesn't care about the development at all. Or, more simply, they haven't finished the main game yet. 2. The alpha demo released this year is so poorly received that they have to redo a lot of things from the ground up.The game is finished, but it's not people wanted. 3. The main game is not completed yet.I hate to say it, but this is my guess right now. All in all, it's not about the "accuracy" of the estimation, it's about whether the product manager has a confident schedule of the product.The "2019" statement, however, is not a positive sign. As for the delay itself, I'm personally fine with 2019 (or even longer as long as the project keeps going & has the funds), but I do agree that we should know more about the progress on the project, at least right now, all the vague statements would only cause backlash on the project, which we don't want to see. As a fan and a backer myself, I would love to hear anything about the project, not only triumphs but also difficulties. About Vita, it's not surprising at all, but I seriously doubt anything that has been done about that platform, including the engine port. You make some good points, obviously very well thought out. I was thinking more about this last night on my way home from work. A few things came to mind. Street Fighter VIt was clear Capcom put out an incomplete product. Hardcore players hated it. A simple Google will reveal all the issues that plagued the initial release. It took two years before Capcom got around to releasing the Arcade Edition, which is the one that players REALLY wanted. Marvel vs. Capcom InfiniteSomewhat similar issues like Street Fighter V, but hasn't been fixed yet. It's not even a competing game at Evo anymore. As I had mentioned before, patching a year or two later isn't a good thing. If the fixes or features they want to put in can realistically be patched in a few months, assuming 100% of the same resources are still on board, then it's reasonable to release sooner than later. If it's like any of the games I mentioned above, then please hang onto it a little longer. A big change with this game versus Castlevania, is user feedback. When they released the beta backer demo to us, whether we intended to or not, we introduced scope creep to the team. If we had told them we liked everything we saw in the beta, releasing in 2018 would have been highly likely. For games like SofN, Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow, Portrait of Ruin...we got whatever Konami gave us without our input. User feedback is valuable but I also see it as a double edged sword, because it inevitably introduces delay. The other thing about software development is that what may seem like an easy fix in the eyes of the gamer, is actually a significant overhaul behind the scenes, which is likely hard to understand for anyone that doesn't work in the industry. Yes, they could attempt to explain it to us, but I'd rather they focus their time and energy fixing the problem. I could be wrong about the whole thing, I am just guessing this is what's going on. I get why certain people are mad, and rightfully so.
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Post by Nezuto on Aug 21, 2018 11:49:02 GMT -6
Well, that is some unfortunate news, and i have my two cents on that. Random picture i found to illustrate what i just wrote ABOUT THE DELAY
First of all, i do understand their reasoning behind delaying to 2019. The game's quality was heavily criticized and it seems that they COULD release the game as it is now, but it wouldn't be really satisfying for everyone, so, they decided it is best to delay to improve the game's quality. That is good, and it shows commitment, because we need to understand that delays doesn't add to their reputation, nor money. A delay is a delay, and it only damages the game at everyone's views and the DEV team reputation. I'm sure they don't want to do that and it would be much better if they could start selling the game already and making proper advertisments. BLOODSTAINED SIZE AND QUALITY
We also need to understand that this is a small, indie team building a game that is a spiritual sucessor, bigger in size than what a huge towering company was continuously able to do over the years and even so, such company that should-not-be-named released several of such games with bugs and late fixes. People sometimes compare it to Hollow Knight and others, but that is not fair. Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is an AAA game made by a small team of indie developers with, let's be fair, only ONE experienced developer putting his reputation in line to make things done. A DELAY IS ALWAYS BAD FOR FANS
A delay, as i said up there, is a delay. We all wanted to be playing the game already and i'm not saying "a delay is fine". It isn't. Delays shows lack of proper planning. When you have a set date for something and you need to delay it, you failed on the way. There is no denying that. COMMUNICATION
Over the last months, the dev team communication got a bit of a bad turn. The lack of proper information really wasn't good, but i think they are trying to amend for that now. Delay was mentioned just now most probably because they were trying really hard to NOT delay the game, because they know the bad impact and negativity that this can have on backers, fans and overall people. The "Might Number 9" ghost will ALWAYS be on their shoulders and that is not an easy ghost to exorcize. STRETCH GOALS, PORTS, VITA
That's one thing everyone really needs to understand: Kickstarter requires money. As long as money keeps going in, you need to keep doing promises, that's how it works. The huge amount of ports / stretch goals was the ONLY WAY to raise more money for the project. I understand why people criticize about the sheer number of stretch goals, that surely made the game much more complex to develop, that was the only way to raise more money and make the project bigger and more important. CLOSING COMMENTS
I don't like the fact that we got another delay, and i don't believe anyone really lkes that. But i understand their reasoning and i will always remember Mr Shigeru Miyamoto's quote: "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"This, this sooooooo much. Another good post that's way better articulated than I've been capable of, recently.
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Aug 21, 2018 12:44:26 GMT -6
If you mean that the game could end up being released very late into 2019, I'll concede that's a possibility, albeit unlikely. As I've said in the post above, personally I'm not worried about anything about the actual release date. IGA can take whatever time he wants to polish Bloodstained and I can't be any happier. Agreed. Yes, I'm well aware of the "invisible delay" you've mentioned a long time ago on the forum (it's on the first delay IIRC), that's why I'm not surprised at all to see the second delay and I'm totally okay with it. This is an explanation I can resonate with, but this explanation shouldn't come from you or me or anyone else, it should come from devs. If IGA says in the video "sorry we can't give you a more specific release window because our team is still very small and might not have enough resources to meet the deadline", I might not have any doubt at the beginning. I can understand that sometimes vagueness is the necessity, but not on something important like this. Pure Miriam also got a good point on the communication side of things, we really need more information right now, so more updates please...?
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Post by Pure Miriam on Aug 21, 2018 16:10:38 GMT -6
Nezuto Thanks, that's kind of you =) Elfina AshfieldYes, i do think that. Take the time that it needs to be done, but communicate with us more properly.
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Post by BloodyTears92 on Aug 21, 2018 16:28:04 GMT -6
I do agree with a sentiment, even if it is a cold one, I'm actually more confident that the visual quality and the speed of development will improve now that the team doesn't have to worry about the Vita port. Especially since the whole "we'll get Unreal to work on the Vita" is now off the table as well. Like the Wii U it seemed like a good idea at the time of the KS, but also like the Wii U, the platform never performed all THAT well and Sony itself never seemed to give much of a damn about the thing.
As much as I feel for the people who wanted the game on Vita and especially those backers who's only option was a Vita (granted I don't think there are *that* many people who own Vitas that dont also own at least ONE other platform for the game, but again, I feel for those people) the game will, to be blunt, be better off hacking the Vita port from the picture. Focusing on Ps4, Xbone, Switch and PC will just allow for a better, more consistent product.
EDIT: and just one last note, I do think its really nasty if backers ask for refunds from high tiers and only get the money for the game itself. Being out potentially hundreds of dollars for a game you can't even play is a bad deal no matter what, even with all the KS caveats of "its not a pre-order" etc.
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