gunlord500
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Hyped for Bloodstained 2!
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Post by gunlord500 on Jul 7, 2018 6:52:39 GMT -6
Hey guys! A lot of folks have highlighted how the mouth movements on the models during the dialogue sections are...unsatosfying, to say the least. One suggestion I've heard is to replace the character models with static portraits, a la SoTN, but Angel-Corlux mentioned they already put a lot of effort into getting the models in, so they don't want to waste it. However, one thing I thought of as an alternative: Rather than speaking face animations, how about putting the 3d models into static poses? Like, Miriam, Gebel, etc. could have neutral, angry, happy, etc. static poses using their 3d models, where their emotions would be conveyed via things like stretching out a hand, a shocked expression, and so on. That might be a way to utilize the 3d models in dialogue while avoiding the silliness of the poor mouth animations. What do you guys think?
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Post by Yän on Jul 7, 2018 6:55:24 GMT -6
One suggestion I've heard is to replace the character models with static portraits, a la SoTN, but Angel-Corlux mentioned they already put a lot of effort into getting the models in, so they don't want to waste it. Sounds like sunk-cost-fallacy at work... Not really a convincing argument if you ask me. If it looks bad, it looks bad and needs to change, no matter how much effort was put into it.
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Post by tekrelm on Jul 7, 2018 12:12:52 GMT -6
Hey guys! A lot of folks have highlighted how the mouth movements on the models during the dialogue sections are...unsatosfying, to say the least. One suggestion I've heard is to replace the character models with static portraits, a la SoTN, but Angel-Corlux mentioned they already put a lot of effort into getting the models in, so they don't want to waste it. However, one thing I thought of as an alternative: Rather than speaking face animations, how about putting the 3d models into static poses? Like, Miriam, Gebel, etc. could have neutral, angry, happy, etc. static poses using their 3d models, where their emotions would be conveyed via things like stretching out a hand, a shocked expression, and so on. That might be a way to utilize the 3d models in dialogue while avoiding the silliness of the poor mouth animations. What do you guys think? Yeah, that would certainly be less distracting! I think I'd ultimately prefer it if they can improve the lip-sync software to the point where it looks great, but this solution would certainly be a perfectly acceptable alternative, and at the same time, be a lot less difficult to get right. Actually now that I think about it, I think it'd be for the best, even if the lip-sync was perfected. It's not just the weird mouth movements, it's the lack of facial expression and body language that really makes it feel stiff. I've been playing a lot of Danganronpa lately, and the characters are all presented in a variety of still images, and it portrays their emotions beautifully. When the monster breaks through the hull of the ship in the Bloodstained demo, Miriam lets out a shocked gasp, but she doesn't even flinch; she's still being all sassy with her hand on her hip. I'd much rather see a still image of her model in a shocked pose, by far. Of course, if they had the budget, I'd love for them to go full Mass Effect with digital acting, but that's not really necessary.
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Post by Carnack Ketral on Jul 7, 2018 14:36:11 GMT -6
Technically, those dialogue models are the same ones used in game, just much closer up. Hence Johannes awkward breathing or Miriams awkward gaping mouth speech. They never really gave them much facial expressions.
It would not be too much effort to simply replace them with static images. Or they would have to do full lip syncing each for each dialogue box.
I am sure if their mouths never moved during the dialogue, people probably would not have argued as much. I have seen such things done before, where a game used the in game models for dialogue scenes but left out the moving mouths and no one had any issue with it.
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(yber])ragon10]{
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Post by (yber])ragon10]{ on Jul 7, 2018 15:47:08 GMT -6
The most obvious thing is that Miriam is using too much tongue. I ended up stuffing her head in a Dullahammer helmet like most other people and it looked much better.
Johannes and Gebel don't suffer from the mouth animation oddness though. Might be something worth considering.
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Post by Carnack Ketral on Jul 7, 2018 16:51:31 GMT -6
It is because Miriam has the LoZ(Legend of Zelda) syndrome of yelling for every attack, so her facial animations are more pronounced to match.
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gunlord500
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Post by gunlord500 on Jul 8, 2018 17:36:44 GMT -6
The most obvious thing is that Miriam is using too much tongue. I ended up stuffing her head in a Dullahammer helmet like most other people and it looked much better. Johannes and Gebel don't suffer from the mouth animation oddness though. Might be something worth considering. Oooh, good point
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 8, 2018 20:49:12 GMT -6
One suggestion I've heard is to replace the character models with static portraits, a la SoTN, but Angel-Corlux mentioned they already put a lot of effort into getting the models in, so they don't want to waste it. Sounds like sunk-cost-fallacy at work... Not really a convincing argument if you ask me. If it looks bad, it looks bad and needs to change, no matter how much effort was put into it. I don't think that's quite what is meant there. The effort was put into the models themselves, not the lip syncing yet, which has had very little done to it so far. The point is making the priority showing the character models, which also hopefully will have their mipmapping adjusted so they look higher res in dialogue (see recent graphics thread posts by me and fatihg). Anyway, I'd personally myself rather they stick to their guns and vision. Static expression on the models sounds okay as a compromise, but let's give them a chance to rework the mouth animations first. It was stated as a known issue even before we got the demo.
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ReySol
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Post by ReySol on Jul 9, 2018 5:49:14 GMT -6
I prefer static models to bad animation.
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Post by neff on Jul 9, 2018 16:22:47 GMT -6
It is because Miriam has the LoZ(Legend of Zelda) syndrome of yelling for every attack, so her facial animations are more pronounced to match. Ahh, that makes sense! Maybe they can afford to do a bit more variance for Miriam, seeing as how she is doing double duty as a playable character.
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