Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 3, 2018 8:39:56 GMT -6
After obtaining all shards in the demo and upgrading them to different levels, i believe i'm ready to give some feedback about them. I'm going to try being "to the point". I will brefily coment about each of them.
FIRST COMMENTS
First of all, i wanted to praise the dev team for being able to create shards where absolutely ALL of them are useful. I didn't find a single shard that was completely useless. This system is based on Soul Dominance from Aria of Sorrow and Glyph Art from Order of Ecclesia and these games had useless powers, but Bloodstained (until now) was able to avoid that.
I also loved the idea where shards can be upgraded in both ways. Their "Grade" by obtaining more of the same type, in order to power them up (although that seems glitched at the demo) and the "Rank" by enchancing them with materials on Johannes, and that can even change how their look or how they work.
Some people pointed out the overuse of summons. You have a lot of shards where you summon or somehow cast a creature and that is a bit of a lack of creativity. That is not wrong, but considering the fact that Shardbinders are tied to the summoning of demons, that on Curse of the Moon Zangetsu says that Shardbinders command demons and on Ritual of the Night, they are a beacon to attract demons, it just makes sense that they can "rule" over demons somehow. So, the big number of summonings kinda makes sense, plot-wise.
I have no criticism on all of this. It's perfect.
Now, to shards themselves:
TRIGGER SHARDS
Cerulean Splash: for a early game magic, the first one you get in the game, it's pretty good. Simple, elegant and useful.
Raging Gale: Basic magic for grounded enemies.
Summon Ghost (Cast Amy in 2016): i really think Ghost should be a familar, it even behaves like one, but it is still a fun and useful shard.
Head Flail: I think Head Flail is way too powerful for such an early game shard, even considering the step on MP cost. Either it's MP cost should be higher, or it's power should be lowered.
Swing Tentacle: way more balanced than it seems. Awesome and cool-looking, can easily kill several enemies around the screen but it is actually weaker, if you compare it's MP cost, than some other shards that you can spam repeatedly for a lower MP cost. If you analyze DPS (damage per second), you can see Swing Tentacle APPEARS to be a broken power for the beginning of the game, but it isn't.
Summon Bat: good for early game. Quite powerful when sufficiently enhanced.
Summon Plume Parma: not only Plume Parma is cute as hell, it's boucing ability is useful on crowded areas.
Entangled Bind: this is the shard that looks mostly useless, but spawn 4 of those inside the room at different spots and see the magic happen against grounded enemies.
Summon Gieremund: Great overall shard. Good damage and range. It is easy to use as a default one for the whole demo.
Summon Bug: a bit tricky due to it's odd angle, but the fact that it can inflict poison alone is enough to use this one.
Throw Axe: not only you can consider this Shard to be the Shard Miriam uses on Curse of the Moon (with the spinnin sickle attack) and that alone is awesome enough, it is actually powerful and has a good range.
DIRECTIONAL SHARDS
Fire Cannon: Good for early game, but unfortunately, it turns a bit useless after a while. It's enhancements should increase it's range.
Bone Throw: a comeback to Bone throwing skeletons, it's fun to use but it's throwing arc could be a bit higher, maybe by enhancements and such.
Straight Arrow: straight to the point (pun intended), awesome when upgraded.
Release Toad: awesome when you spawn enough of them, but the fact that they have a bug where you can spawn them in reverse (making them walk on top) is priceless. I really hope this anti-gravity bug feature stays in-game!
ENCHANT SHARDS
Sword Mastery: Unfortunately, it's bugged and it doesn't work, but the idea of having Enchant Shards that increase power of specific weapon types is really good. That is much more effective and interesting than simply basic stat-enhancements.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Jul 3, 2018 9:41:01 GMT -6
I am the one who complained about too many summon shards. If we're going to get so many of them, at least spread them out in the whole game. In the demo almost half the shards involved summonong the enemy. A few can be fine, but come on, I'd like more diverse powers considering that we'll also get familiar shards.
At the very least, I hope they won't implement ANY summon shards for the Effective category. Assuming they work like sorrow games, they would be pretty redundant with familiar shards.
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Post by crono141 on Jul 3, 2018 9:49:43 GMT -6
I personally think summons should act as familiars. Summon once, they hang around doing extra damage with attacks, maybe either slowly draining MP while active or us MP as their health bar.
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Post by allooutrick on Jul 3, 2018 12:39:16 GMT -6
I loved a lot of the shards and the fact they don't require duplicates to upgrade. My only concern is how easy it has been to max them out.
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Post by RichterB on Jul 3, 2018 12:48:56 GMT -6
Great rundown of the Shards. I would like a more efficient way of swapping them out during gameplay or being able to equip and cycle between two favorites. This could possibly be done via a scrolling wheel like in Lament of Innocence/Skyward Sword/Mega Man 11, or by using the "click stick" function.
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Post by Malek Deneith on Jul 3, 2018 13:41:01 GMT -6
I only barely played around with shards during my playthrough of the demo but I noticed that after upgrading the Bone Throw shard through Johannes it started throwing out two bones instead of one. That's, uh, rather hefty upgrade. On the other hand I also did the same upgrade for the Axe Throw and it didn't seem to change anything. No more axes, no damage increase... maybe, just maybe increase in axe flight speed but that might've been my imagination. Needs more testing I guess.
As for Sword Mastery shard I think I saw some discussion on discord channel that it might be increasing attack speed of swords rather than damage. Worth trying out maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 18:14:39 GMT -6
I personally think summons should act as familiars. Summon once, they hang around doing extra damage with attacks, maybe either slowly draining MP while active or us MP as their health bar. My only issue with the Summon Shards is that, yeah, the name carries a certain expectation with it. When I found my first one, I immediately got excited because I thought the game had given me a Familiar. I admit this is kind of silly in retrospect, but with all that talk in the cutscenes about how gathering too many Shards will spell Miriam's doom, I tried to use them sparingly and I sold a lot of them. |
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Post by Carnack Ketral on Jul 3, 2018 20:08:40 GMT -6
Most of the shards felt fairly decent to me. When fully upgraded they are all quite powerful and useful. Although, My main shards were Straight arrow, and Raging Gust.
The only one that I thought was a bit underwhelming was the 'Throw Axe' shard. it felt as though it could use greater range. Its upgrade says it does, but I see it barely move past Miriam, versus the monster which can chuck it a whole screen.
My biggest gripe with shards was the severe lack of diversity. Several summon shards, while entertaining, they seemed underwhelming, especially compared to the 'Straight Arrow' shard. I used that to great effect, even more so once upgraded to max.
I would have liked to see some 'Effective' shards, just to see what they had in mind. And at one Familiar would have been nice. Maybe a fairy, or a floating sword(lookin' at you, Alucard).
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Post by tekrelm on Jul 3, 2018 23:40:09 GMT -6
I personally think summons should act as familiars. Summon once, they hang around doing extra damage with attacks, maybe either slowly draining MP while active or us MP as their health bar. Yeah, not a bad idea. They could let you switch to other shards, too, but have it so that while they're out, the game puts a handicap on your max MP, alternatively. |
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Post by skullhack on Jul 4, 2018 11:05:52 GMT -6
I felt there was too many Red Shards. This could be partially fixed by turning "Summons" into, well, Summon Shards (I'm guessing it's the plan, just not implemented yet). Also, they were too easy to obtain, you get flooded by new shards while going through the second half of the demo.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2018 11:44:27 GMT -6
There are somethings i wanted to point out.
SUMMON SHARDS vs FAMILIARS
Bullet Soul Nightmare. Description is "Summons nightmares to use as weapons". Not considered a Familiar.
Guardian Soul Alastor. Description is "Summons "ALASTOR" familiar". Considered a Familiar. The first Igavania game with the system of "get abilities from enemies to use as powers" was Aria of Sorrow. The game used souls and you had four types of souls: Bullet Soul (A.K.A Trigger Shard on Bloodstained), Guardian Soul (A.K.A Effective Shard on Bloodstained, most probably), Enchant Soul (A.K.A Enchant Shard on Bloodstained) and Ability Soul (A.K.A Skill Shard on Bloodstained). Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow (that followed the same system) and Order of Ecclesia (that had a system more or less close to it) never had a dedicated slot to familiars, like Bloodstained has ( Familiar Shard). So, what was and wasn't a familiar was dependant on the description. Some souls worked almost as a familiar, but wasn't labeled as one, and few had a description simply as "summon X, the Familiar" and things like that. I believe the confusion between "summoning" and familiars come from that. The Shardbinder system (i'm calling it like the game calls it) has six types of shards and one of them is labeled as Familiar from the start, but they still use the same concept that Aria / Dawn used, so some shards works almost like a familiar, but they are actually treated like summons and invokes of some sort.
ABOUT SWAPPING SHARDS ON THE SPOT
This is a picture i used on another thread in 2016. Look at the green square. I said this before on another thread or two, i'm sure that will happen. That existed in Dawn of Sorrow and Order of Ecclesia. Dawn of Sorrow you had that by obtaining a Soul (Doppleganger) and you had 2 sets. Order of Ecclesia had a relic that would give you 3 sets. I believe Bloodstained will have that. If you guys take a look at the 2017 demo (the 2016 demo already had that, as you can see up there, just without the small dots), the equipment and shard menu had something called "Equipment set 1" and several (i think 8) small dots above the equipment menu. They intend to create whole sets of equipments (and shards) where you will most probably be able ot switch back and forth in real time. Maybe we don't have it yet because it will be something obtainaible as a special item or maybe a Skill Shard of some sort.
ABOUT AXE THROW AND SWORD MASTERY
Axe Throw increases in size and damage if you enchance it enough, i think after Rank 6 or so. I really wasn't able to spot a single difference between equipping and not equipping Sword Mastery and i upgraded it. Maybe it has, but i wasn't able to see it. The common talk is that Sword Mastery is glitched and unfortunately doesn't work. A shame, because we only three Enchant Shards. CON Booster, Resist Holy and Sword Master. Resist Holy has no footage except for one player obtaining it at one video from 2017 Demo, from Holy Elemental enemy. CON Booster is in limbo (it was a shard from Buer in 2016 demo, but Buer turned into a confirmed familiar showed at an event, so CON Booster has no enemy tied to it as of now). And Sword Master doesn't seem to work. ABOUT EFFECTIVE SHARDS
I did several threads about the fact they are a mystery. Not a single one was shown yet, and we had examples of all others, even familiars. ABOUT THE OVERUSE OF RED SHARDS (TRIGGER SHARDS)
It seems that is also something that came straight from Aria / Dawn of sorrow. On those games, the two most common Soul types were Bullet (A.K.A Trigger Shard) and Enchant (A.K.A Enchant Shard) most probably because they are simpler to do. Nothing more than simple projectiles, summoning of demons and stat-bonuses and passive effects. |
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Post by Carnack Ketral on Jul 4, 2018 11:45:20 GMT -6
I felt there was too many Red Shards. This could be partially fixed by turning "Summons" into, well, Summon Shards (I'm guessing it's the plan, just not implemented yet). Also, they were too easy to obtain, you get flooded by new shards while going through the second half of the demo. while not wrong, there were a mass of new monsters in the second half as compared to the first. I feel they may have done so for monster variety, but they did not vary the shards, like I stated earlier. |
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Post by Fuchigane on Jul 4, 2018 12:09:23 GMT -6
Nice read, thank you for it.
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Post by skullhack on Jul 4, 2018 12:11:51 GMT -6
Carnack Ketral let's hope they keep an high variety through the whole game then !
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Post by Bardic Knowledge on Jul 4, 2018 12:26:34 GMT -6
I agree that Ghost's effect should be a familiar instead of a homing projectile, though it would have to potentially be nerfed a bit if it's not going to fade (I've used it to two-shot a Dullhammer in its current form without upgrades).
I did notice something interesting with Swing Tentacle and Straight Arrow (haven't tested it with anything else yet): the attacks gain the attributes of your weapon. When I had the Stinger equipped it would inflict poison, and when I had the flame whip on it would add fire damage.
Good to know that Sword Mastery was bugged. I was wondering why my swords didn't seem any more powerful after I obtained five of the Shard.
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Post by caer on Jul 4, 2018 14:05:11 GMT -6
I was generally pleased with the shards I found, I think they show promise for what we have ahead of us. I like the possibility to upgrade shards, and that the upgrade actually changes looks and properties, over always only upping damage for example. Sword master shard is a great idea, and I used the heck out of raging gale, feel's great in those corridors.
The one thing I'm slightly worried about is the balancing of some of the shards, as many other have noted. Mainly the Arrow..
Granting an extra arrow per level is crazy, as mp cost is not raised along with it. It was also really cheap to upgrade, but maybe that is just for the demo? It totally let you destroy everything, and with free aiming to boot. A more costly upgrade path in general for all shards is probably the best medicine. Significantly boosting mp cost as well would also work, but then you might not be able to use it effectively anymore if you are low level, so that might irritate players.
Directional shards giving damage in all directions makes them especially important to think carefully about for balancing. I really liked the dark magic shard showed in a recent update for directionals: Really weak for damage, but good for creating space.
Ghost is also really powerful in the early game since you can fire off so many and they don't require any aiming and can't really be stopped by walls or anything. I didn't try to upgrade it, but I can see it getting ridiculous easily if damage is upped. Maybe someone else tried already?
Just to be clear, I really liked using these, I'm just worried they could ruin early-mid game balance.
I'd love to hear more detailed thoughts on this from people who spent more time on upgrading the shards.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2018 14:33:47 GMT -6
Granting an extra arrow per level is crazy, as mp cost is not raised along with it. It was also really cheap to upgrade, but maybe that is just for the demo? It totally let you destroy everything, and with free aiming to boot. A more costly upgrade path in general for all shards is probably the best medicine. Significantly boosting mp cost as well would also work, but then you might not be able to use it effectively anymore if you are low level, so that might irritate players.
If MP cost would raise by enhancing the shard, that would be a good reason for the whole idea of dropping the enhancements back to rank 1 when you reach 9 and try to go beyond that. I think this needs a better mechanic, but it would be a good excuse. Players would be able to downgrade shards if the MP cost was considered too much for them when enhanced. |
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Post by Yän on Jul 4, 2018 16:01:47 GMT -6
I generally enjoyed most of the individual shards. There were too many trigger shards for the beginning though. I got new trigger shards left and right so quickly that I didn't even get to really try all of them in battle. Where were the other shard-types? I also thought that the drop rates were a bit too high. They basically front-loaded the trigger shards to the point where I was left confused on what to use. At the same time there was only one enchant shard, some pretty cool directional ones and none of the remaining categories. I think that at some point I was pretty much spoiled for choice when it came to trigger shards.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 4, 2018 16:45:12 GMT -6
YänThe drop rate is probably higher due to being a demo, to let people test out, but i do think it is too high, yes. About the number of trigger shards, as i said, i think they are doing things based on the other games. Aria of Sorrow numbers: Bullet Souls (same as Trigger Shards): 55 Guardian Souls (probably same as Effective Shards): 24 Enchant Souls (same as Enchant Shards): 34 Ability Souls (same as Skill Shards): 6 So, as we can see, the "simple projectile, instant effect" stuff, such as Bullet Souls were the majority of powers from Aria of Sorrow. If i'm not mistaken, Dawn of Sorrow had the same overall proportion, with Bullet Souls having way more powers than everything else. Since it is a demo, i think they could have given the other types for us to see (no Effective Shard yet, although the command exists in-game).
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Post by Yän on Jul 4, 2018 17:21:08 GMT -6
Pure Miriam Bullet souls may always have been more abundant than the others but in this demo all we got was bullet souls and bullet souls that go into a certain direction. There was one enchant shard but it was unfortunately broken... I hope they change it up a bit more in the final game.
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