Let's talk about crafting

You literally did nothing but over complicate the current system. You would still have to go hunt a monster for a reward. The only difference is that reward is locked behind a quest. For those who do not want to quests, this severely blocks gear/ability upgrading.

The whole point behind crafting is resource management. You found items A, B, and C, but still need D. Which monster have you not slayed yet? Did one you already kill not drop the item you need? Go kill more things until you find your prize. This extends gameplay more so than "here's a target, go kill it." boom, done.

I understand, you think your method of questing would be an improvement, but it devolves quests into much more of a grind. Especially if you have to travel to a specific spot and find random enemy spawns. This would be much more effort than most would be willing to put up with when it comes to monster hunts.

Not to mention if you have to repeat this several times; Get quest, got to location, look for target that randomly spawns, kill target, go back to town, turn in quest, get quest again, repeat ad nausea.

Removing the farming of monsters would turn most of them into little more than speed bumps.

Once crafted, you can buy it from Dominique if she did not already have it for sale.

Also, the Ruby drops from the large lion-man thing called Sabnok.

One the most addictive aspects of the IGAvania games is to collect a ton of items, weapons, gear, spells, abilities and useless collectibles, I know sometimes it feels to grindy, but the grinding it's always optional, and I personally love to kill monsters to get cool and rare rewards. I think the crafting system from RotN is an updated version of the weapon combining system from CoD and It works pretty well, and I like it as it is. (But I think it's a great idea to clear quests and get rewarded with quest exclusive crafting items, weapons and gear).

Guys, I don't know if you noticed this, but in one of the dialogues Johannes says that you must need to find formulas in order to make better alchemy recipes and I think it's a great and logical way to lock the most powerful items in the game.

So, What other additions needs the crafting system?

I, too, love to kill monsters to get cool and rare rewards. But think back to any previous Igavania game ever made: no enemies that you ever defeated had ever dropped any crafting reagents. So the question is, why does it feel to you that my proposal (which still allows for crafting reagents to be dropped by enemies) would remove the feeling of killing things and getting cool and rare rewards? I'm honestly baffled.

I suppose I must not have been clear, somehow...

Funny, I was mostly drawing from my memories of grinding out the Crissaegrim with each playthrough of Symphony when coming up with my proposal in the first place. It was because I most definitely have gone after the Crissaegrim that led me to try to think of a better way. Because I've lived through that youtube video many times--and let me tell you: it's boring. It's a bore of a chore. Once I saw that I needed a ruby, I knew I'd end up Googling what to kill to get one, and then I'd get to relive the most tedious and awful aspects of Igavanias. One that I had hoped we'd be able to dodge. It's 2018; can't we avoid past mistakes? We can, with just a few, subtle tweaks that I outlined in my proposal.

Now, now, I completely understand the need to embrace nostalgia. The only reason we're all here is because this game is a comfortable pair of shoes that we haven't been able to wear in over a decade, and it feels amazing to be able to slip them on again. I'm all about that! But the old shoes weren't perfect; there were little, tiny things about them that, in truth... kinda sucked. And there's no need to revive those little things.

To switch analogies for a second, we want to bring back the baby, but we don't also need to bring back the bathwater. We can keep everything that we all liked about the old games, and also make subtle improvements while we're at it. Smooth out those rough edges on those decades-old designs.

In my proposed revamp of the crafting system (or with even my other proposal of not tying item drops to specific enemies), nothing you talked about would be lost, or even diminished. You get to have it all--all the nostalgia, but none of the tedium! You still wouldn't know what monsters drop what items (less so, even!), and you would still get to be surprised with cool, rare item drops, even several playthroughs later. That wouldn't be changing! All of that would literally be exactly the same as it has always been in every previous Igavania game. There's no loss of fun or mystery! Quite the opposite!

Bloodstained isn't Diablo, but it's in the same genre; it's an Action-RPG. And it's 2018; let's allow ourselves to take inspiration from other great ARPGs out there. I agree with you: staying true to the Igavania spirit is paramount, but that doesn't mean nothing can change, or that nothing can improve. I've given my proposals a lot of careful thought, being mindful not to turn the game into anything unrecognizable. I firmly believe that I have not infringed--in any conceivable way--upon any aspect of the series that you've brought up. I love those things, too! If you feel as though my changes would ruin those things, then please let me know how. Maybe we can come up with an even better solution together!

See, I know we aren't on the same page yet, because I agree with and appreciate everything you just said. My black-label copy of Symphony was destroyed, too, by my younger brother. I went and bought a new copy, and later got the XBLA version, and the PSP version, and the Dracula X Chronicles version. I replay it twice a year. I cherish the game to an extraordinary degree, as I'm sure all of here do.

I suppose the only thing we seem to disagree on is that--drilling down with incredible specificity to the specific, exact grind for the crissaegrim shown in that youtube video--I don't think it is beyond improvement.

Though I think you probably agree, too, under that layer of uncritical thought you've wrapped the game in, within your mind. Normally, I would say that I abhor that sort of self-afflicted blindness and jingoistic partisanship, but in this case, it's only a game, so it's not hurting anyone. Well, I mean, besides yourself, I suppose. In that, if the game were improved, you'd feel bad, and if the game weren't, then it... wouldn't be better. So you kinda lose, either way. That's a bummer!

Hm, I'm curious as to what you're referring when you say "one of the components that has always been a defining aspect of these games." My focus has been laser-like on removing the 'enter the room, kill the thing, leave the room, enter the room, kill the thing' grind that I've never liked. Do you consider that to be a defining aspect of Igavanias? Or have I just been unclear in what I'm trying to remove? I honestly never would have thought of it as something that anyone would have described as entertaining.

Certainly it is has never been such an annoyance as to put me, or anyone here, off of the series, but I still believe that we'd all enjoy the game a little bit more if it never gave us incentive to do it. And that's been my goal.

I know you've yet to throw a stone; that's what being uncritical means. But I owe you an apology for giving into the impulse to be defensive about my idea. It's scary for me to put myself out there and ask for others to let me know what they think; I'm not used to doing that. I'm going to try harder to not take feedback so personally in the future! I really do appreciate the discussion so far!

I still want to make sure that we understand each other better, though, so could you, like, contrast a scenario that would play out in the game as it is now, from the player's perspective, versus that same scenario with my proposed changes, so you can point to the problem more specifically? I want to have the chance to refine the idea in a way that could possibly improve the game for both of us!

Yes, and that stems from the core idea of making the ruby a  quest reward. I said that when you boil it down, I'm asking for, well, let me just quote myself: "I only suggested that I be able to go and do a quest to earn the thing that I needed to craft the item."

So in this one specific case with the Bunny Boots, that item is a ruby. If rubies were to be a quest reward, it would fulfill all my hopes and dreams, but only for the Bunny Boots; anything else I wanted to craft would need a different crafting reagent, so I'd be back to 'entering the room, killing the thing, leaving the room, entering the room, killing the thing, leaving the room,' to get those other reagents. I'd be back at square one rather quickly.

So, knowing that that suggestion would only remove that inane grind for this one case of Bunny Boots, I started thinking ahead to how I can make some quests give the needed crafting reagent for more than just the Bunny Boots.

Whatever the quests gave me would have to apply to more than just the Bunny Boots.

So I could have suggested that every crafted item require rubies. If rubies were quest rewards already, then the inane grind wouldn't be necessary for any crafted item, not just the Bunny Boots.

Which, actually, is what I suggested, only I also suggested that we rename rubies to Distilled Demonic Essences at the same time, because lore-wise, it'd be a bit silly to infer that every magic item is made of rubies.

See, I made one suggestion after another to not leave gaps in the system.

But when you walk it back and boil it down, all I had really suggested is that rubies be quest rewards. Do you see what I mean?


What would take the place of crafting reagents on enemies' loot tables? Well, I think enemies should still drop crafting reagents, for one thing. But when you take into account the other suggestions, that basically means they'd all have a chance to drop rubies. Or, Distilled Demonic Essences, if you allow me to rename them.

So then think about where that leaves us. Symphony of the Night didn't have a crafting system. Coincidentally, not one enemy in the entire game dropped a crafting reagent. So now, even if we made it so that no enemy in Bloodstained ever dropped a crafting reagent--which is not what I'm proposing--the enemies would only drop everything else they already drop. And they'd drop the same sort of stuff that enemies dropped in Symphony of the Night. Are you saying that it was boring to kill enemies in Symphony of the Night, because potions, gold, weapons, and armor are fairly moot?

Why bother crafting, you ask? Well, that has absolutely nothing to do with me or anything I've proposed.

You see, the crafting system is in the game already. I didn't do that, IGA did. With that system, you can craft weapons and armor. But please take note that the enemies in the game still drop weapons and armor. Don't forget that!

So why bother crafting, if enemies drop better gear than you can craft? It's a great question that challenges the existence of crafting systems in any game.

I suppose, generally speaking, it's a matter of careful tuning to make sure that the player has the ability to craft gear that is a cut above what you'd receive from enemies of appropriate difficulty. Of course, the player should be asked to dedicate some time to crafting in order to receive a more powerful weapon. It's a choice, you see, to go after crafting an exquisite weapon, or to just forge ahead, and hope that something as good drops in the near future. I actually touched on this in my original post.

If a crafting system were handled in any other way, I would agree with your rhetorical question: there'd be very little point to a crafting system.

And that's why when I saw that the game didn't tell you where to find rubies, I realized it wasn't allowing me the choice to dedicate time to the crafting system. I had no choice but to press on. The crafting system wasn't doing its job. And in that case, yes, why bother crafting? That's precisely what I mean!

The rate of reward is really not part of my proposal because finalizing the numbers is an iterative process that comes later.

I can't say at this time how rewarding a given quest would be until we get some data on how long it takes to complete versus what you're rewarded with.

But at this stage, it doesn't really matter, because those numbers can and will be adjusted later.

It's up to IGA and the team to tune the pacing of the quests and the amount of Distilled Demonic Essences a given quest would theoretically reward, and I think we can trust them to arrive at numbers that feel good.

I did notice that you agreed that the way you farm items in the game now is redundant and tedious, though! Awesome! Now wouldn't it be better if there was a more engaging and fun way to do it? Have I got a proposal for you!

I think it's a great example, whether any monster in the game drops a Kukri or not. Mostly because I think it says a lot that you don't know.

If I understand you right, you're saying you wouldn't like it if an enemy in the game didn't drop a Kukri, because the aforementioned inane grind is a more efficient method of obtaining it than any more varied and fun method would be, like a quest. Do I have that right?

What if you had a choice between doing a quest to kill four Gieremunds for the Crissaegrim, or killing 25,000 Schmoos? Which would you choose to do?

You and I have both killed 25,000 Schmoos for that Crissaegrim, and both of us agree that the process is dull, lifeless, and boring AF. So work with me to find a way to remove the incentive to do that again, for both our sakes!


Right! They haven't been designed to be fun. We can change that! We don't just have to accept that the end-game grind for completionists like you and I has to be a colossal chore. With a few tweaks, we can turn that optional grind into something much more entertaining! It is possible! Let's find a way to do that!

I'm generally not a crafting sort of guy but I like your ideas sir. I'd like to add to those ideas:

With the trade off idea - make it like dark souls' "Boss Souls': You choose between crafting one of 2 or 3 options using the one time boss drop, which you can only obtain again on your next play through. 

As for rare or truly epic items it would be even more compelling if their stats fall within a range generated at random or even on rare occasions a random attribute attached like poison (diablo style I guess) so that one might distinguish between a high end or low end epic item. This would greatly increase playtime for min/maxers.

Now that's compelling, even to me. The non-crafty guy!