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Post by akahige on Aug 24, 2018 23:29:32 GMT -6
You have done well in pointing out audio three times: "looks and sounds dull", "environment and music", "auditory splendor". You certainly have realized the tremendous importance of sound in these games. Well, I have two words which will shine your day: Michiru Yamane. Don't you see? 50% or more of the feeling was secured in this project by the very beginning. Backing It was so easy, as easy as repeating a two words mantra. It's very very hard to fail a marathon when you can begin halfway. Or, put It like this if you want: the graphics team should double or triple their efforts in negative, before even putting a dent into Yamane's magic. Unfortunately while I love her work in SotN, the GBA/DS Castlevania games for me only had a couple of notable tracks and were otherwise pretty forgettable. And so far the only track in Bloodstained to hit it for me is the main theme. The Galleon Minerva theme is catchy, but it doesn't hit the same chord with me the way Dracula's Castle, Lost Paintings, Wandering Ghosts, or Tragic Prince do. If we're strictly talking about her music, I think you should hear lament of innocence and curse of darkness, among her strongest works. Also, twenty years have passed. You sure nostalgia isn't playing a factor here? Look... Lost paintings, Tragic Prince... Not even Michelangelo did the Sistine Chapel twice. I hope Bloodstained's sustainability as a franchise doesn't rely on besting what's the apex of art. That would be like saying, i'm worried about my art lessons, I still don't paint like Caravaggio... |
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Post by Pure Miriam on Aug 25, 2018 8:04:12 GMT -6
estebant gunlord500 I agree about the difference on screeenshots and videos comparison. I'm not talking specifically abou this issue, i'm talking globaly. From Miriam's body proportions, to Vepar's color (AND body proportions), to Familiar's colors, to Miriam's cloth at her shoulder, to Miriam's walking speed. Almost everything people complained, IGA listened and tried to fix. Don't you think that didn't added more time on their development scale? What i mean is that IGA should try to follow his guts too, instead of just keep listening to the outcry of fans and backers and trying to please everyone, everytime. Some people believe that the game's graphics has a fatal flaw that cannot be fixed (semi-realistic scenario combined with shader / almost cartoonish characters and enemies) because IGA let backers and overall people choose the game's graphics combination. Although i do like the result, i heard that from hundres of comments from several people. Maybe, just maybe, he could choose and decide more things by himself and his team, instead of listening to fans so much. There is a limit to what a fanbase can help. And there IS NO LIMIT to what a fanbase can mess up.
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Post by dareka on Aug 25, 2018 11:45:08 GMT -6
And I am... trying to be cautiously optimistic, but with the issues adan describe and the bizarre methods dareka mentioned behind how their graphics appear to be done that remind me a lot of the bizarre twists of logic an inexperienced programmer might use to preform tasks in a counter-productively elaborate manner, and I... don't know. It feels like they've tied themselves into a knot that would be more expensive and time consuming to try to unravel than just to start over and neither path is a desirable situation this late in, especially on a limited budget. Even if we gave them all the time in the world, I'm not sure how much can be done about it all, and people more experienced in the realm of Unreal 4 and video game graphics design than myself being as concerned as they are certainly doesn't help to rest my nerves. OK, so, I'd like to clarify some of my earlier comments. 1. So at first I saw what I assumed to be real-time lighting and shading effects. Then I realized what I was looking at was static, as in not appearing to change in real-time. I figured these must then be textures, which is computationally less expensive than real-time effects. Truth be told, though, there's no way to tell, because real time effects can also "not change" when there's no reason for them to. 2. More often than not, games save on processing by replacing real-time effects with baked-in textures. I'd go so far as to say it's the norm with games that aim to maintain high-frame rates: if you can fudge something with a texture, you do it. So if I came off as suggesting that what they are doing is "bizarre", my bad. 3. That said... if you cram too much "lighting" into a texture... you run the risk of sucking up too memory. For example, with two background sections which are the same but for the lighting, if it is baked into the texture, then you have two textures. Of course, there are workarounds: blend the single background texture with a semi transparent lighting texture, or heck, just use real-time lighting. 4. Here's a quote from IGA: "Lighting is being progressively adjusted and we are making sure to proceed carefully since it affects things like processing speed and storage significantly." Or, to put it another way, it's a trade-off: the more processing you use, the less storage you take up, and vice-versa. 5. Besides the lighting, what I'm sure is giving them nightmares must be procedural generation. If the results are baked into the textures, as it is my understanding, that has the potential to cause significant memory bloat. While I've never actually worked with procedurally generated textures, I can imagine that reducing and/or working around the memory bloat must be no mean feat when you have multiple platforms, one of which ( Switch) is significantly under-powered compared to the rest, and one of which has a myriad of possible configurations ( PC). That said... given enough time and effort, it sounds doable, so I'm not really concerned about the graphics at this point... though just how good the game will look at the lower-end of the spec spectrum is anyone's guess. |
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Post by dareka on Aug 25, 2018 12:21:10 GMT -6
I love you, Pure Miriam , but I gotta respectfully disagree with the notion that IGA's listening too much to the fans. estebant gunlord500 I agree about the difference on screeenshots and videos comparison. I'm not talking specifically abou this issue, i'm talking globaly. From Miriam's body proportions, to Vepar's color (AND body proportions), to Familiar's colors, to Miriam's cloth at her shoulder, to Miriam's walking speed. Almost everything people complained, IGA listened and tried to fix. Don't you think that didn't added more time on their development scale? While I get the overall notion, I think it's important to have accurate examples here, and I don't believe these are completely accurate. IIRC, Miriam's bust was made larger than in the original art to show off the stained-glass flower art. Some people complained, but IGA said "sorry, it stays." I'm not sure the walking speed's been changed at all, but regardless changing it takes literally seconds from a dev's point off view. I don't know about Miriam's shoulder cloth, but as for Vepar, it more likely added a just a bit in terms of cost, rather than in terms of time (since coding and asset generation can be done simultaneously). The tasks that have actually delayed the game are... 1. Developer switch and engine upgrade 2. Stretch goals 3. Multiplatform development. And none of these have anything to do with fan complaints. Sure, IGA cited fanfeedback as a reason for the delay, but if you didn't have all of the above it's doubtful you would have the feedback you got. What i mean is that IGA should try to follow his guts too, instead of just keep listening to the outcry of fans and backers and trying to please everyone, everytime. Though I'll admit it's just my impression, I think he's doing just that, actually. This is what I'm trying to communicate through this post: that this is just how it feels sometimes, because we see other people complaining about things we don't necessarily care about. But if you step back and look at the facts, I feel this is not what's happening. Some people believe that the game's graphics has a fatal flaw that cannot be fixed (semi-realistic scenario combined with shader / almost cartoonish characters and enemies) because IGA let backers and overall people choose the game's graphics combination. Although i do like the result, i heard that from hundres of comments from several people. Yeah, but basically (with only one exception I can think of) we're talking about 2D-or-bust people, and this has nothing to do with listening to the backers and everything to do with them simply not liking 3D for 2D games. Maybe, just maybe, he could choose and decide more things by himself and his team, instead of listening to fans so much. There is a limit to what a fanbase can help. And there IS NO LIMIT to what a fanbase can mess up. is a quote for the ages, but again, my reading of the facts is that they're doing their own thing. I believe the perception that fans are messing up the game is simply the result of hearing a lot of complaints we don't sympathize with, together with the delay that was just announced. But even if the delay was due to fan feedback, that's ... not necessarily bad for the game. In fact, considering that complaints about the graphics appear to be what first brought the situation of the apparent downgrade to 505's attention, I'd say that was good for the game. Devs and publishers should be on the same page always. Fans are helping this game achieve that. |
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Post by Pure Miriam on Aug 25, 2018 13:04:31 GMT -6
dareka I can't compete, on erguments arguments with someone that worked at the industry, so, i refrain from saying anything regarding what you said.
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Post by lovelydumpling on Aug 25, 2018 13:55:10 GMT -6
I want erguments to be a word now. The combination of Ergo and Arguments. I don't know how it'd be used, but I love the sound of it. I'll have to think on this for a while.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Aug 25, 2018 16:01:51 GMT -6
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 15, 2018 20:53:30 GMT -6
I still think Miriam's proportions are fine, but once I saw the change in...face or demeanor, I'm not sure which then that definitely needs a tweak.(I mostly think they're fine because she's been looking like that since the beginning in official artwork, slight alterations in scarves and clothing not withstanding)
Lighting was odd, but I am by no means an expert in lighting and how it should be done. It looks like they tried to go with some dynamic lighting and tried to make things less bright. Looks like no one liked it and I wasn't too big on it. I was never a graphics guy.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on May 29, 2019 1:54:51 GMT -6
Miriam's not the only one that looks better in cutscenes. Took some screenshots (for scientific purposes only ofc).   This scene is in the newest trailer and I actually miss the lighting she had from the beta  haha The brightness makes it look much more flat  edit: Updated my older phone screenshot to a capture of the video on my PC! She looks good/fine, but the detail point I think is still valid. Previous Domi looks like a painting, with the nice thick lines. Newer one looks more like "I'm a bright 3D model". |
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Post by kamuiarikado on May 29, 2019 15:09:44 GMT -6
Miriam's not the only one that looks better in cutscenes. Took some screenshots (for scientific purposes only ofc). This scene is in the newest trailer and I actually miss the lighting she had from the beta haha The brightness makes it look much more flat Sorry for phone quality on the new one, I'll try to get a better shot soon oh, but you can see what I mean about the brightness washing out the color Ara-ara Dominique looks better than ever. |
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jun 1, 2019 23:14:48 GMT -6
In the BitSummit interview today, IGA pointed out that Japanese fans seemed to prefer the character models more from before the visuals update, so I guess I'm a Japanese fan haha. The backgrounds do look better, but I'm like them and value the characters more. Old Domi above looks like a painting with the nice thick lines, shading and darker lighting.
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