Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Nov 27, 2017 5:37:26 GMT -6
Morte. Bloodstained's zombie? This discussion was made before, focusing on few specific enemies, and also sporadically here and there, but i think it's time to throw some more fire into that, (alongside the lack of discussions at this forum due to the usual lack of material to discuss). If some people find this a bit redundant, this thread can be moved or deleted. To the discussion itself:
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is not Castlevania. But it's inspired on Castlevania series, focusing on their gameplay style that is now being called "Igavania" since it's basically Metroidvania with some specific differences. The Castlevania series had a lot of enemies that became classics and almost mandatory to exist among it's games, specially at Igavania ones. Bloodstained had few basic paths to follow: It could either reuse the same enemies, revamp them, ignore them completely or create new enemies as substitutes to those classic ones. It seems they decided on that last route, considering what we've been seeing so far. Below are some enemies from Bloodstained that seems to be substitutes to some classic Igavania ones: Morte (Expy of Zombies): both are slow, used as fodder and very weak. Morte Cannon (Expy of Bone Pillar): both are stationary, can be hop on, can be pilled up and throw fire at a limited range. Amy (Expy of Ghost): both are slow, etheral beings and both fly around following the player. Morte Bone (Expy of Skeleton): both throw bones. Morte Bone is actually a bit different because it has way more resistance, is somewhat stronger and much slower, but the basic function is similar. Dullahammer Head (Expy of Medusa Head): both fly at set patterns and it seems to be place in vertical areas to make the player fall down. Ape (Expy of Flea man): both are small, weak and hop around erratically, attacking in swarms. Okyupete / Aello (Expy of Siren / Harpy): they are all harpies. Okyupete wasn't shown shooting feathers and Aello wasn't shown in the game at all yet, but they work somewhat similar. Some could even argue that some other enemies are expys of Igavania enemies, but i'm focusing on the most classic, recognized ones from the old series. Some could also argue that some of these enemies exist in almost any plataform game like Bloodstained and it would be impossible to not add them. And some could argue that those enemies aren't expys of Igavania games at all, due to their differences. What do you think? Bloodstained is being creative into substituting classic Igavania enemies with their own creations? We will see the old Igavania ones, equal or revamped, at the game somewhere? Or those enemies aren't expy at all and complete new beings? That's all folks!
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Post by CastleDan on Nov 27, 2017 9:53:53 GMT -6
Everyone knows what I think of the Morte. I'm not a fan but luckily my opinion seems to be the minority. They strike me as a fine zombie substitute but I don't want the zombie substitute to replace all the classic characters i loved in the Castlevania. For example : Morte's being zombies works perfectly for me because they look just like a zombie form but with a new name. Morte Skeleton still looks and feels like a morte ( zombie ) but with bones flying out of it. I'm not against something new replacing something old I just wish it was more interesting. The stars were a great substitute for the bats or medusa heads because of such a unique design. I still wonder why they got axed. I mean the Buer was in Castlevania too and it's still here...so why not skeletons? As far as the topic, I think all of your comparisons are definitely intentional swaps made to differentiate from Castlevania. I think the wolf enemies in the church are definitely swaps for the panthers in SOTN.
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 27, 2017 9:56:18 GMT -6
Also, Buer: Buer. hahaha
I think we can expect to see more/other interesting Goetia demons filling classic Castlevania roles. Amy itself is one that we haven't discussed much, I think it's in the same class as Buer.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss straight up skeletons/zombies being around, those are about as common (and inconsequential rights wise) as bats and frogs to me.
I expect there to be new enemies to fill other Castlevania roles yet to be seen, like: Axe Armor, bone dragon, mermen, succubi (incubi), une/thornweeds and such, tomes
Not as likely, but still kind of expect: Spectral Sword/possessed mass of weapons, ghost dancers, a Legion
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Post by CastleDan on Nov 27, 2017 9:58:58 GMT -6
purifyweirdshard If there's essentially a direct rip on Legion in this game but no skeletons my brain might implode.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Nov 27, 2017 17:52:02 GMT -6
CastleDan well, some people believe Bloodstained already have it's own Death... so...who knows
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Post by CastleDan on Nov 27, 2017 19:33:45 GMT -6
Pure Miriam Yeah, I have a strange feeling this will be the more annoying thing to me about the game. I want iconic monsters and they're all getting replaced with things that are very different and not iconic/classic horror movies. I would have rather them play on the old approach. For instance....instead of Death being an assistant to the main enemy it could be Dracula as the right hand man. Playing with expectations and still using similar enemies in new ways. Instead of typical skeletons maybe use skeleton's in new ways. Instead of medusa heads use medusa snakes on the ground.... Granted we don't have the enemy list or anything but we've seen so little of the iconic enemies that I have a feeling they distanced themselves from the enemy types I loved the most and aped the ones from castlevania that I didn't. For example : Get rid of skeletons but keep harpies. I rather skeletons than harpies but......alas!
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Nov 28, 2017 1:17:51 GMT -6
CastleDanAbout harpies, it was a smart idea to simply grab mythological harpie's names to use, instead of calling Harpy. Okyupete (a modified version of Ocypete, a mythological harpy, it means "the swift wing") and Aello (another mythological harpy, meaning "storm swift") are simply harpies with different names. There are three main greek mythological harpies, i imagine if Bloodstained will also have Celaeno (whose meaning is "the dark"). They could try to do more or less the same thing for other classic enemies from Castlevania series. There is a mythological skeleton called Odokuro (that's a giant skeleton, a boss at Castlevania 64) that could be used as a bigger, meaner substitute to Castlevania skeletons. There is another, called Baigujing, a female demon whose true form is a skeleton. As i said before, i believe some enemies will make a come back (Zombies are very common anywhere) but some (like skeletons) are too "Castlevania" and would make the game look like a carbon copy.
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Post by CastleDan on Nov 28, 2017 22:01:07 GMT -6
Pure MiriamYeah that's what I mean. It's kinda irked me that they basically brought lesser enemies back ( imo ) but with new names but so far none of the ones that truly mattered like Skeletons or medusa's or something along those lines.
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Post by exile on Nov 29, 2017 17:57:14 GMT -6
Granted we don't have the enemy list or anything but we've seen so little of the iconic enemies that I have a feeling they distanced themselves from the enemy types I loved the most and aped the ones from castlevania that I didn't. For example : Get rid of skeletons but keep harpies. I rather skeletons than harpies but......alas! I hear you. At the same time, I think that the "feel" of this game, at least to my mind, has more of an otherworldly alchemical/magical element than a strictly gothic, horror setting. As such, staples like vampires, werewolves, and serpents are replaced by bizarre abominations, and I would expect things like the morte, chimeras, possessed and mutated humans, etc. I think it's okay to break away from the genre staples because while players like you and I initially feel a little displaced, it can ultimately yield an experience that feels fresh and engaging instead of relying on the same old tropes. I mean, as cool as Dracula is, do we REALLY need to see him again?
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Post by neff on Nov 30, 2017 5:23:51 GMT -6
If morte gets some of the one hit wonders out of the way for some more interesting enemies, then I’m all for it. By stepping away from classic horror villains and using alchemical creations, Bloodstained starts to com into its own. Who knows, morte might not even be the only monster used in this manner! Perhaps a decarabias or similar attached to some floating swords? Or a buer on a trail of fire?
Goofball’s got a gun!
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Post by Busterific on Nov 30, 2017 10:02:32 GMT -6
Now I've got this with slightly changed lyrics going through my head...
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 3, 2017 20:28:12 GMT -6
Pure MiriamRemember this Werewolf enemy? Do you remember his counterparts in Circle of the Moon & Aria of Sorrow, including these guys? (The Werejaguar & Weretiger?) & Now let's reimagine this classic enemy (the Werewolf, anyway) in Bloodstained as a Demon named Flauros, Great Duke of Hell, & one of the 72 demons in the Ars Goetia. He takes the form of a humanoid leopard with huge claws, and is incredibly strong. (Here's some random images I found on Google) Heck, IGA's development team ( Mana Angel-Corlux ) can go right ahead and take the creative liberty to make the proposed "Flauros" enemy more similar to this guy if they really feel like it. I wouldn't mind! What do you all think of this?
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Dec 4, 2017 0:39:30 GMT -6
Galamoth that's actually a very good idea. And it also shows me you see no problem on Bloodstained having "expies" of Igavania enemies, correct?
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 4, 2017 7:16:49 GMT -6
Pure Miriam I'd say no, I definitely don't seem to have a problem with "expies" of past Igavania enemies. After all, Zangetsu (confirmed as a Boss) can basically be considered an expy of Julius Belmont, and I love it!
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Post by m0nkf15h on Dec 4, 2017 10:53:59 GMT -6
Galamoth when you kill him his head could roll off as a Buer We should keep in mind though Bloodstained is an original IP so originality should be the focus, too much re-hashing of 'vania stuff could be a bad thing - sure things can be "inspired" by things we've seen in the past thats nice for the fans but it's got to feel fresh also.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Dec 4, 2017 11:12:31 GMT -6
Granted we don't have the enemy list or anything but we've seen so little of the iconic enemies that I have a feeling they distanced themselves from the enemy types I loved the most and aped the ones from castlevania that I didn't. For example : Get rid of skeletons but keep harpies. I rather skeletons than harpies but......alas! I hear you. At the same time, I think that the "feel" of this game, at least to my mind, has more of an otherworldly alchemical/magical element than a strictly gothic, horror setting. As such, staples like vampires, werewolves, and serpents are replaced by bizarre abominations, and I would expect things like the morte, chimeras, possessed and mutated humans, etc. I think it's okay to break away from the genre staples because while players like you and I initially feel a little displaced, it can ultimately yield an experience that feels fresh and engaging instead of relying on the same old tropes. I mean, as cool as Dracula is, do we REALLY need to see him again? Yeah, and besides all that, there's the narrative to consider besides just feel. "Demons" are a focus, "undead" per se really is not. If there -were- skeletons, zombies, vampires and such, that would be more obviously "because Castlevania" and not because it fits what's going on. Bloodstained existing as it does is enough "because Castlevania" to both sate the need and push boundaries just right. It's not as much aping one thing over another in an inconsequential way. Galamoth's example is a way of doing this kind of thing that makes sense. Can they paste in a Rondo werewolf? They could, but it wouldn't really mesh with the world. Can they take that as inspiration and give a similar creature moves like it? Yeah, definitely, that's what they're doing. The Hounds of Hell tier monsters seem (to me) to be re-imagined Rondo behemoths, too, as demonic giant cats and dogs. that's just my own take on it though, no one has really corroborated or even agreed on that lol
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Post by Galamoth on Dec 13, 2017 20:34:37 GMT -6
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