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Post by Bob on Jul 24, 2017 7:41:05 GMT -6
I don't know how much it cost to develop a game but 5.6 million dollars doesn't seem like a lot of money to create one. Mighty number 9 made four million dollars and the game was garbage. Maybe I'm just overthinking this?
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Post by XombieMike on Jul 24, 2017 7:52:09 GMT -6
Sigh. We just learned IntiCreates isn't involved and we still get Mighty No 9 comparisons.
It's not IntiCreates making the game. It's not Deep Silver publishing. It's not Inafune and his company designing. We have more of a budget. This comparison is easily squashed.
Yes, this is enough money to make a quality game. More than enough. Considering we blew the Kickstarter goal out of the water, money isn't the problem. It's time that's the limited resource.
If you are expecting a AAA title from an indi game, maybe dial that down. Expect the game you see in the demos.
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 24, 2017 7:57:55 GMT -6
One guy, did this whole game.
Budget: $40,000
I leave up for speculation on what you feel if "money" is enough. To companies that want to make money, it is never enough. For a game developer, the amount should be balanced and even out. The other game had issues, most of which Bloodstained do not have. Both time and money was more than THEY estimated, and that result in fan-service were suffering.
Yes, the budget is enough, and because of MORE than they initially were hoping for, the project just became bigger and bigger. This is why we will have more modes, biggest castle from IGA and a few other things.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 24, 2017 8:10:41 GMT -6
1. Just saw the post about Inti Creates.... I had a feeling since we haven't heard from them in a long time. Does that mean their artist is out of the picture along with their composer too?
2. While a huge budget can most definitely be helpful it doesn't automatically make the game quality. The devs passion and effort will do that, the IGAVANIA games were all quite good with very limited budget and time. So maybe you might think the visuals are incredible in bloodstained but I'm sure the quality of the game itself will be good.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 24, 2017 8:21:09 GMT -6
I don't think the OP is trying to make MN9 comparisons per se, just the nature of the budget itself, and the point everyone is missing so far is that the Kickstarter funds are only a fraction of the team's budget. The publisher (previously unnamed, now confirmed to be 505) is fronting most of the money.
The initial point of the Kickstarter was to raise only 500k to prove to investors (the publisher) that there was demand in the game, so the funds could be given. We ended up getting over 1000%, so obviously the funds were given. I can't remember what that exact number is/was, and even if it had been said, it's probably changed some over the past couple of years...but I imagine it's somewhere around an additional 5-10 million?
Not sure, but regardless, no, that 5.6m isn't all they have to work with, and there have also been backers since. I think they have enough money for sure. Technical challenge vs time are the real enemies, but we have capable protagonists.
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Post by XombieMike on Jul 24, 2017 8:27:52 GMT -6
Well said. Sorry, MN9 is apparently my trigger. Welcome to the forum, Bob!
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 24, 2017 9:21:49 GMT -6
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 24, 2017 9:28:24 GMT -6
Undertale.
lol
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Post by Yän on Jul 24, 2017 10:08:58 GMT -6
Let's not forget that Bloodstained has additional Publisher Backing and that the initial goal was merely imposed to prove that there was a demand for this game. That being said: big budget =/= good game. I actually find more of an appeal in various indie or mid-tier titles than in most big budget AAA productions. Also, games are made by people, not by dollars. It really depends on the team and how a project is managed whether that money is used well or not...
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Post by DSLevantine on Jul 24, 2017 10:21:56 GMT -6
Let's not forget that Bloodstained has additional Publisher Backing and that the initial goal was merely imposed to prove that there was a demand for this game. That being said: big budget =/= good game. I actually find more of an appeal in various indie or mid-tier titles than in most big budget AAA productions. Also, games are made by people, not by dollars. It really depends on the team and how a project is managed whether that money is used well or not... True, big budget =/= good game. The point is, I think 5.6m is enough to create a great game.
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Post by Astaroth on Jul 24, 2017 10:25:20 GMT -6
AM2R
plus as stated before, this isnt like Iga has never had to deal with shoestring budgets and an insanely short development cycle, hardware limitations, and even unusual limitations like motion controls and 3d development, theyve all helped him to slowly refine his style of gameplay while adding in new things to try each time
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Post by kronfarfar on Jul 24, 2017 12:28:00 GMT -6
Ya wasn't it mentioned quite early that the inital $500k was 10% of the publisher backing? In any case I think we can firmly say that the total budget is probably over 10 million when taking the slacker backers in to account.
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Post by Cplus on Jul 24, 2017 16:59:59 GMT -6
"The details I received say that the game already has funding -- can you talk about the source of that funding, and why you are also going to Kickstarter? KI: All I can say right now is that after over a year of talking with just about every publisher out there, I was able to secure funding for about 90 percent of the game with the condition that I prove the market still wants an Igavania game. Kickstarter proved to be a great solution, as it would (hopefully) show that people still want an Igavania game while simultaneously providing funds for the core game. That being said, I'm hoping to clear a few stretch goals so I can add some new features and modes that I've always wanted to do but was never able to in the past. Hopefully, the fact that I've been able to gather most of the investment myself will put to rest any fears that backers may have about this title not being released" www.gamasutra.com/view/news/243131/QA_Castlevanias_Koji_Igarashi_returns_with_new_game_Bloodstained.php
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Post by MorningSun on Jul 24, 2017 18:07:19 GMT -6
This is a lot of money. What actually takes to make a good game is a dedicated team and time. Many really good games were made with way less money (though money required for a game varies as time goes on, so it's hard to compare).
You can even make a really good game with little to no money at all. The money is to pay people, bills, the technology used or the making of the engine and so the people can get full invested with the project. A project with little to no money would be a free time project, but it takes time. A good game can be made in some few years because of the time invested in the project, with of course, the more money you have, the easier it becomes to make the progress quicker.
I don't know completely what goes into making a game, because I have no idea of what happens inside the developers' room. But this is what I imagine it is (along with some common knowledge).
It's similar to what artists may face when making something, like a very detailed piece, animation or a comic. It takes time to do it, and if you have do it on your free time, then it means you can't work on it very fast, you have a job or studies. But you have money to do your work, then you can work on it as much as you have to, you can use every time possible, as you can sustain yourself very nicely. And as long as you have money, you can keep doing what you are working on freely.
In this case, you have a lot people working on this game, and they are being paid with this money (while a lot of other things are being handled with the money too). I am sure there is a lot more that happens, but I don't know much about game developing. haha
I am sure it will be a good game, of course due to the nature of Kickstarter projects (with different things being handled by different people), some things can get messy, but as long as there's a good organizing, it will all end pretty well. I hope the game ends up successful, so the next time they can make a game with the profits of the game itself instead of Kickstarter. I don't know if it will still be Inti Creates or if Iga will have his own studio like Hideo Kojima.
The comment above me makes me imagine it will be the latter, but I will not make any assumptions without any other information.
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Post by Elfina Ashfield on Jul 25, 2017 4:01:50 GMT -6
I agree with both of you, MorningSun XombieMike . In my mind, if we don't consider management for a moment, time and budget are somewhat "convertible". If you have more money, you devote yourself into the project, hire more people, the project could go faster, otherwise you're stick with yourself and your free time only. If the budget / time is reasonable, then the project quality is almost nothing to do with money. How the project manager / director handle the project's progress is the key point to the success IMO.
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Post by Kent on Jul 31, 2017 5:07:40 GMT -6
Of course $5.6m is enough to make a good game. It's important to understand however, that a small indie team making a game has way less overhead than a commercial business doing so - and therefore is going to cost less.
You can't really compare a handful of people making games from their homes with a large corporation operating out of an office building without acknowledging this. Every piece of infrastructure that goes into the working space causes the budgets necessary to justify a project from a business perspective to skyrocket - and that's not even taking into consideration the other needs of the development staff at hand, or how much they're getting paid (which is expected to be higher when they're working for larger corporations - especially when they're located in high cost-of-living areas).
If you've ever wondered why the biggest AAA-budget games that get released year after year are very safe and samey in what they do, it's because they have a fairly reliable return on investment. To put it another way, they keep the lights on for a very, very large series of operations.
That said, Inti Creates is not a particularly large company - about 80 employees - and has only self-published a handful of titles (five, to be exact). Mighty No. 9 is not one of these - as an educated opinion from working in this industry, the root cause of the unfortunate situation in which Mighty No. 9 ended up was likely due primarily to managerial and scheduling issues - that's not to say that development issues couldn't have arisen - though I don't really have doubts as to there having been development issues which took up time and money as well, considering that we're talking about a team that's otherwise experienced neither with the engine at hand (Unreal Engine is, to this day, still a bit of an enigma to the Japanese development scene, with the only high-profile adopters coming in fairly recent history), nor with handling multi-platform development on such a large scale. When you divide resources up this much, with a team not accustomed to it, with technology that's new to them, it should come as no surprise that there will be hiccups along the way - nor should it be surprising that management and scheduling issues would definitely arise from trying to sort this out with other contracts.
As a developer-for-hire, the larger you are, the farther in advance you need your contracts planned out - because of having bills to pay. This likely prevented Inti Creates from being able to put more resources toward the game, and is why it ended up getting shipped the way it did - they have to call it somewhere, and generally-speaking, companies don't have the luxury of being able to simply sit on something until it's good and ready (this is something only a handful of companies can ever really do with AAA game development - this is primarily a Nintendo and Blizzard thing, though we have seen similar things happen with other companies in particularly egregious situations; the post-launch situation of Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 comes to mind). It shifts schedules, pushes contracts, stresses employees and costs a whole lot of money.
(Side note: I suspect that the ongoing development to create the remaining versions of Mighty No. 9 is why Inti Creates has released so many self-published titles as of late - they probably did adjust scheduling for continued development on the project, but the duties for the staff on the finished platforms concluded, but they need to be kept busy on something - so in lieu of contracts, savings are used to develop and publish small, non-contracted titles, which offer a relatively high turnover rate, being able to be developed to completion quickly. This is probably also why their most recent ones, Blaster Master Zero and Mighty Gunvolt Burst, are getting a somewhat steady amount of post-launch support in the form of extra playable characters; developing the games finished, final MN9 platform development is ongoing, and these are simply filling up space before their next contract is scheduled to start)
That said, this is likely why Inti Creates is no longer on Bloodstained. Not "because Mighty No. 9!," but rather, because they have contracts and development schedules that couldn't be changed as a result of development timeline shifts that happened for one reason or another. Instead of see a situation happen where the end result becomes more akin to what happened with Mighty No. 9, it makes sense to shift to other developers if more suitable ones are found - especially from a business perspective, if you absolutely want the quality of the product to be paramount - the later into development that a developer shift occurs, the harder it's going to be to make things better.
The other part of why I think this - and I understand this part is far more subjective - is that Inti Creates consistently makes pretty good games otherwise. They're known for the Mega Man Zero series, and Mega Man 9 and 10, and they self-published their own Azure Striker Gunvolt series and the Mighty Gunvolt spin-off crossover series, all of which are actually pretty good, if not great. All of which are 2D games, running on their own proprietary engine, with workflows with which they're familiar - all of these are factors that drive down the time and money investment to make a game happen.
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