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Post by Dev Anj on Jul 9, 2017 13:07:04 GMT -6
Today it hit me that there's one major factor of any Castlevania game that often gets sidelined during discussions, and that is subweapon design. To recap, subweapons are, as the name implies, secondary weapons often deployed by the press of the attack button with a directional key. They have existed since the very beginning of the Castlevania franchise, and have taken many forms, from glyphs assigned to arms to spells cast by charging. Needless to say, they are fairly important to the overall flow and pacing of the gameplay, even though they are technically "optional".
What is remarkable is how some subweapons of yore have managed to stand the test of time, and are fondly remembered to this day. Obvious examples of such are subweapons based on the classics, like the cross, the holy water, and even the axe. They are so good that even recent games have oftentimes good powers built around them.
However, I must note that the subweapons in recent games definitely feel like they lack something. This is especially the case for games with the soul system or such, where there are plenty of subweapons but few are anything interesting. While there are admittedly some interesting approaches taken with subweapon design, like the Killer Doll soul from Aria or Ice Needles from Portrait, they tend to get buried under many unremarkable subweapons. The most telling point is that even the subweapons that people actually remember from these games aren't because they are well designed, more because they are overpowered: Red Minotaur from Aria, anyone?
So, what truly makes a subweapon good? As in, not the most efficient or most damaging, which are fairly easy variables to manage by a game designer, but how to make them memorable, unique, enjoyable in their feel, and more. The classic games definitely had a knack for that to a certain degree, but there's only so much you can draw from them when you have to make tons of subweapons, so I would be curious to hear your views on it.
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Pure Miriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 10, 2017 1:29:29 GMT -6
Well, the whole subweapon system from Castlevania games were kinda engulfed inside the game's magic system. Alucard had a lot of weapons way better than subweapons and basically all the games after it used them more as a nostalgic feeling than something really useful. The Sorrow games and Order of Ecclesia dropped them completely, incorporating them to their magical systems. Nowadays, i see the subweapons exactly as that. They kinda don't exist anymore, and was taken in by the game's magic system. Bloodstained follows the same idea. At the e3 2017 Demo we could see the Lance Throw, Trigger Shard from Lance Armor, where Miriam throws a lance. That vaguely remembers a subweapon, but i believe they will not create things like throwing axes or knives, at least, not like it used to be. Bloodstained needs to get some distance from Castlevanias. Dropping subweapons and making them vanish inside the Shard System may be a way to do that. Which is sad for those expecting their return.
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 10, 2017 5:42:01 GMT -6
Trivia: IGA's least favorite sub-weapon was the holy hand that threw ashes. It was a fun addition with inspiration of an Indian that said he could make everything holy. IGA found it interesting.
Bloodstained will probably borrow more from Symphony of the Night rather than the older and newer versions of Castlevanias. With that said, now that it seems that the team have more knowledge of what made the other games good and bad, they could balance it out. In the demo we have seen the spear throw coming back, fireballs and bouncing attacks from a crazy little ape, drawn from Miriams fingertips. So there will probably be something similar to the subweapons in this game. It is also worth mention that we do not know how the other two playable characters in the game will function. Perhaps there is sub-weapons or sub-magic to make these viable across the entire map. Changing sub-weapon on the fly is what these shards (and previously souls) were all about, and making it so, it gives you a greater varity in terms of how to deal with your threat on-screen. If you enjoyed the Killer Doll, I cross my fingers we have a similar attack in Bloodstained, I liked that one too because it felt powerful. When it comes to balancing, I hope they can patch the game shortly after, perhaps even change the map layout if needed, and fixing some bugs along the way.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 10, 2017 6:52:03 GMT -6
I vastly prefer the soul system to sub weapons ( which might seem hard to believe because I'm Mr. Sotn guy).
The soul system is great because you have a huge variety that you're bound to find your 6 or however many subweapons you really want. You get your equivalent to an axe, you get your equivalent to holy water...etc. I'm of the SOTN philosophy which is .... the more options you give me the better. Oddly enough the Soul system games handled it in a more SOTN way than SOTN did lol
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Post by estebant on Jul 10, 2017 9:39:03 GMT -6
The pre-rondo Holy Water has always been the best designed subweapon in my opinion. It completely shreds alot of the enemies you encounter. But it definitely doesnt work on all of them (flying enemies) I'm glad Alucard still got to use it.
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Astaroth
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Post by Astaroth on Jul 11, 2017 10:56:51 GMT -6
subweapons as a third set of resource management after magic and consumables is pretty much pointless due to its inability to grow with your char, it works better as part of a magic system where there is room for growth with both an individual spell through levels, or through later game spells having a higher base power and altered visuals and slightly different effects
the one place where i could see the subweapon being useful though is during theme runs like no shard or low%, but then having a relic that freezes your shard/mastery progression would accomplish that, in essence locking you into either the level 1 versions of shards which would satisfy the requirements for a subweapon only style category (for instance only using souls that imitate basic axe, basic holy water, etc at lvl1) or allow you to challenge yourself by limiting your spell prog
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purifyweirdshard
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 11, 2017 11:28:43 GMT -6
Uniqueness in utility is what makes the secondary attacks stand out, whether they're subweapons, spells, glyphs, souls or shards. They just need to dodge overlap and same-ness, as has been touched on here. That can be helped with the varying elements and damage types the game will have.
As far as actual, ACTUAL subweapons, I expect a different character(s) to use them, most notably the assumedly playable Zangetsu and/or Dominique. Getsy will likely have some demon-hunting implements or similar skills while Domi (Niqi?) could have all manner of blessed weapons. It'll be interesting to see. Still thinking Fuuma and Belnades for the two of them, mostly.
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